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Penalty Fare at Victoria (Southern vs Gat Ex)

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yorkie

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No, passengers are "at it" by exploiting an unintentional loophole which no doubt will be plugged in due course.
I don't see how Greater Anglia or Southern Only tickets being used on the respective Airport Expresses are in any way a "loophole".
I see no reason why a TOC morally should not have a routed ticket valid on only some of their trains. Indeed, in a number of cases I can see a benefit to it. It's just that there hasn't been a need for one in that form before.
There is no provision for this in the current framework. So, morally, it is wrong to falsely claim there is.
Let's say the WCML gets refranchised as a whole, containing both Virgin West Coast and the present LM. If the present LM had overcapacity on London-Birmingham I would have no moral issue with a "no InterCity trains" routed ticket that would act just like the present LM Only one.
This would not be easy to achieve, however it's off-topic. Please create a new thread with an appropriate title, bearing in mind the following forum rule:

  • If posting a personal suggestion for changes to rail provision, you should make this position clear in the thread title so readers are clear it is not based on the work or aspirations of any recognised body.
Once a new thread has been created I'll be happy to give reasons why I disagree with it, but until then...
All that needs to happen here is a tweak to the NRCoC to permit what is clearly the intention and remove the loophole.
The "intention" of the tickets was to allow travel on all trains operated by Southern. That remains the case. If Southern did not want to operate the Gatwick Express trains from 2008, when the merger occurred, they could have withdrawn from the franchise!

Do you apply the same logic when other franchise mergers occur, or is this a special case?
Provided it is made clear to passengers when they purchase what restriction is in place, and there's no way clearer than writing it on the ticket, what's the problem in passengers accepting a restriction in return for a lower fare?
Restrictions in the 'route' field should be by TOC or geographical route only. Restrictions in the 'validity' field should also be kept reasonable, and at least no more complex than they are today. It's bad enough with current restrictions, let alone with your ideas for express train restrictions!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I don't see how Greater Anglia or Southern Only tickets being used on the respective Airport Expresses are in any way a "loophole".

It is down to intent vs. NRCoC. Greater Anglia do not intend to restrict their tickets from use on the Stansted Express. Southern do.

There is no provision for this in the current framework. So, morally, it is wrong to falsely claim there is.

Most people on here feel that the TOCs should give leeway to passengers when they get things wrong. Southern have clearly got this a bit wrong. Should we not give them a little leeway?

The "intention" of the tickets was to allow travel on all trains operated by Southern. That remains the case. If Southern did not want to operate the Gatwick Express trains from 2008, when the merger occurred, they could have withdrawn from the franchise!

That is excessive and unreasonable, IMO. What they perhaps should have done is withdrawn the Southern Only ticket (or increased its fare to take into account its newly expanded validity) - but they missed a trick, one suspects unintentionally.

Do you apply the same logic when other franchise mergers occur, or is this a special case?

It is a special case and long has been. And premium fares for airport expresses are nothing new, you get them all over the world.

Restrictions in the 'route' field should be by TOC or geographical route only. Restrictions in the 'validity' field should also be kept reasonable, and at least no more complex than they are today. It's bad enough with current restrictions, let alone with your ideas for express train restrictions!

That's very much an opinion, and one I don't agree with in this case. I don't think there is anything confusing about it to the lay passenger, it's just a few people who are trying to get themselves a discount (and why shouldn't they, to be fair) using a bit of inside knowledge.
 

crehld

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No, passengers are "at it" by exploiting an unintentional loophole which no doubt will be plugged in due course.
This has been going on for ages. Obviously the powers that be (atoc DfT, etc) have not seen fit to remedy the situation, perhaps because there is nothing to be remedied?

Ticket validity is conferred by the NRCoC. Indeed, as a passenger I am threatened with all sorts of nasty things happening if I fail to abide by the NRCoC. I therefore take every precaution to undertake my obligations and ensure I always travel on a valid ticket in accordance with said conditions.

Now I am told those conditions don't apply because a train company doesn't like them or they have unforeseen consequences for the train company. I wonder what would happen if I used that argument in my defence when not travelling on a valid ticket! What is more, should I ever use such a ticket in accordance with the conditions attached to it I am unduly accused of being "at it". What a mess this whole situation is!
 

Bletchleyite

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This has been going on for ages. Obviously the powers that be (atoc DfT, etc) have not seen fit to remedy the situation, perhaps because there is nothing to be remedied?

Or perhaps because remedying it by changing the NRCoC is a massive amount of work with a long lead time, and there is I believe an intention to change the fares around from London to Gatwick once SN become part of GTR? So whatever that change is is likely to correct the issue.
 

Deerfold

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It is a special case and long has been. And premium fares for airport expresses are nothing new, you get them all over the world.

True.

They're usually much more than 2 minutes quicker than a standard train though - if we're looking at what's morally right I think there's some dubious behaviour here too. At least Heathrow Express (although obscenely expensive) really is fast.
 

jon0844

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I can't imagine that many people are using Southern Only tickets on GatEx anyway. Hence why Southern just prefers to keep its head down and rake in the money from the premium tickets it sells.
 

34D

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Go on then, what's the Company number? Do enlighten us!

As quoted in a previous thread (Gatwick Express - Private Eye Article) FOI Response

So, you disagree with the DfT, Southern, Companies House, us, and just about everyone apart from a handful of Southern revenue/gateline staff who pretend to work for this fictional Company.

In general, a 'company' can exist in forms other than an English limited company.
 

talldave

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.....
It is a special case and long has been. And premium fares for airport expresses are nothing new, you get them all over the world.

But probably elsewhere in the world the premium service doesn't arrive at the airport already full of commuters not paying a premium fare and the rolling stock isn't clapped out and totally unsuitable for visitors with large quantities of luggage?

At the end of the day I don't think Southern/DfT could have done much more to destroy the brand image of the Gatwick Express more than they have. It's an appalling and embarrassing start to any tourist's time in London.

Does anyone at Southern give a toss? No!
 

Bletchleyite

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But probably elsewhere in the world the premium service doesn't arrive at the airport already full of commuters not paying a premium fare and the rolling stock isn't clapped out and totally unsuitable for visitors with large quantities of luggage?

True, though that is a separate issue. It is considered a premium service by Southern, which is what determines what is appropriate surrounding ticketing (but has a problem relating to the NRCoC not quite allowing, I believe by non-deliberate omission, what they are doing). That it isn't worth what is charged for it (arguably) is a side issue, and the customer's remedy in that case is, err, not to be a customer.

At the end of the day I don't think Southern/DfT could have done much more to destroy the brand image of the Gatwick Express more than they have. It's an appalling and embarrassing start to any tourist's time in London.

I wouldn't go that far, though I would go "a bit rubbish". The 442 refurb in particular is of very poor quality; they could have done it so much better, e.g. to the standard of the fGW or ATW Mk3s which are excellent.
 

DownSouth

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True.

They're usually much more than 2 minutes quicker than a standard train though...
Often where there is a higher fare for using an airport station, it is because a portion of the fare is dedicated to the CapEx and OpEx of the airport station itself where it has little relevance to the rest of the public transport system.

The way this is implemented for Sydney Airport is by applying the same fares as would apply if it were a normal station in the integrated train/bus/tram/ferry system, but then adding an extra 'gate fare' for every entrance/exit at either of airport terminal stations.
 

clagmonster

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All that needs to happen here is a tweak to the NRCoC to permit what is clearly the intention and remove the loophole. Provided it is made clear to passengers when they purchase what restriction is in place, and there's no way clearer than writing it on the ticket, what's the problem in passengers accepting a restriction in return for a lower fare?

There is no provision for this in the current framework.
Surely, it is already possible to do this by changing the restrictions of the Southern only cheap day returns, to specifically bar every single GatEx service. See:
"12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in
addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times
when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will
be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the
ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for
the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for
immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey
shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
10
If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train specified when you
book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train
service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train
Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty.
If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is
not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the
cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle
will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in
designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. "
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

Of course, to do this would require permission from the DfT in the case of regulated fares, and it would clearly not be possible with anytime fares. Southern have chosen not to make this simple change.

I would add that, in my view, the tickets routed 'Not Gatwick Express' have such a time restriction on them, albeit shown in a very much unconventional way on the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
While my view is that GatEx should not be a premium service because air passengers with luggage are better on it (indeed I'd force them onto it by judicious use of "u" and "s" in the timetable, and make the fare the same as the regular one), that's a separate question of policy, and a policy that does not apply at the present time.
I don't think that would work as you would then end up accidentally removing the direct service between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

You just do as you say, charge the same fare, and make the signage so that it encourages people onto the Express. Booking clerks could advise passengers to boards the relevant train. Or you could just do away with the thing, and have 4 extra longer distance paths. Either way, I agree something should be done.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think that would work as you would then end up accidentally removing the direct service between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria.

There might I suppose be an issue if you did it on trains that weren't non-stop Gatwick to Victoria (or vice versa).

You just do as you say, charge the same fare, and make the signage so that it encourages people onto the Express.

True, I doubt anyone would choose an overcrowded commuter service over a near enough guaranteed seat on the GatEx if it were the same price.
 

anme

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True, I doubt anyone would choose an overcrowded commuter service over a near enough guaranteed seat on the GatEx if it were the same price.

Indeed. Getting rid the Gatwick Express premium might be a cheap way to release extra capacity on the badly overcrowded Brighton main line.
 

Wolfie

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Agreed.

However I suspect Southern has instructed ATOC to insist to the DfT that the NRCoC should be amended. If Southern want to continue to cart fresh air on their Gatwick Express route because it's more profitable to do so, the DfT might give in to their demands. We'll have to wait and see (incidentally there's now a thread Changes to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage)

Perhaps pedantic but..
a ATOC is a trade body which can demand absolutely nothing from DfT... it can request but...
b Is it a given that any Southern "instruction" to ATOC would be acceptable to all other TOCs without any discussion?

Also what, if any, consultation should take place before a revised NRCOC is issued?

Presumably the version valid at the time a ticket is purchased sets the contract or else chaos would follow.....
 

heart-of-wessex

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Yorkie is correct, the thread is quite old now, but it was indeed on a Southern DaySaver last year or maybe the year before.

I took a one-way trip and the RPI refused to admit Gat Ex is part of Southern, and said it has absolutely nothing to do with the company.

I paid the small excess which wasn't much to be honest but I sent a letter to Southern either case and they did admit that the Gatwick Express is Southern, and refunded me the excess, but then went on to say I shouldn't do it again!
 

yorkie

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Perhaps pedantic but..
a ATOC is a trade body which can demand absolutely nothing from DfT... it can request but...
True but TOCs know the DfT doesn't want to do anything (or refuse to stop something) that might cause premium payments to be reduced or subsidy to be increased...
b Is it a given that any Southern "instruction" to ATOC would be acceptable to all other TOCs without any discussion?
When Virgin & EMT decided routeing options between Sheffield & London should be restricted, they just got ATOC to go ahead and make the changes. No discussion with other TOCs, no consultation and no DfT permission. Of course that isn't within the rules, but there's no effective regulator or ombudsman to do anything about it. The TOCs can break the rules with impunity.
Also what, if any, consultation should take place before a revised NRCOC is issued?
They are required to consult Transport Focus. I'd like to see the public invited to have a say too.
Presumably the version valid at the time a ticket is purchased sets the contract.....
Absolutely.
 

35B

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Often where there is a higher fare for using an airport station, it is because a portion of the fare is dedicated to the CapEx and OpEx of the airport station itself where it has little relevance to the rest of the public transport system.

The way this is implemented for Sydney Airport is by applying the same fares as would apply if it were a normal station in the integrated train/bus/tram/ferry system, but then adding an extra 'gate fare' for every entrance/exit at either of airport terminal stations.
But Sydney is integrated as part of the inner suburban network with a line purpose built to serve the airport, more like the way Heathrow is on the Piccadilly line. At that point, charging a premium is reasonable. I'd be a bit concerned about the idea that a large traffic destination on an existing line should attract a facility fee of that kind.
 

DownSouth

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But Sydney is integrated as part of the inner suburban network with a line purpose built to serve the airport, more like the way Heathrow is on the Piccadilly line. At that point, charging a premium is reasonable. I'd be a bit concerned about the idea that a large traffic destination on an existing line should attract a facility fee of that kind.
That was exactly my point - only airport stations which have dedicated infrastructure and which is of no relevance to the rest of the public transport network should be self-funding via either a fee charged directly to the passenger (in zone/distance/timed fare systems, such as the Opal card in Sydney Airport) or incorporating it into the fares (where you have a system dominated by point-to-point fares like National Rail) or operation by the airpot (which eventually gets passed down to the airport's customers).

Gatwick satisfies neither of those conditions as it does not have a significant amount of dedicated infrastructure needing to be paid off and it does have (according to previous threads on here) a minor but not inconsiderable amount of non-airport usage.

The exception to this principle would be if the airport station was in a network run as a messy hybrid of a business and a service with a government unwilling to properly invest in public transport (e.g. the UK's rail system) and the airport station was sucking up a disproportionately high amount of expenditure. This would have to be addressed by either operating the station more efficiently or requiring the shortfall be recovered.

There is of course a second reason that a premium should apply - if a genuine premium service is being provided. Again, it would seem that this does not apply to Gatwick Express in its current form.
 

Deerfold

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I've just returned from Rome.

There's a half hourly service to the main airport with occasional extras on the quarter hours.

They manage this "premium" non-stop service by making it 1st class only (14 euros). The train was announced just a few minutes before it arrived and left (though most people knew which platform it would go from). It arrived 8 minutes late at the airport.

For my first class experience I was sat in a tip-up seat opposite a loo on a train with not a huge amount of luggage space (there are some dedicated luggage racks but very little space compared to the size of train).

If you want to go second class you have to catch 2 (stopping) trains, connecting at Ostiense - and this you can do for 8 euros.
 

Agent_c

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The email I've had back from southern didn't address my points, but did claim the "gateline" answer of "southern tickets are not valid, they are only valid on southern" but also stated "GatEx tickets are also valid on southern". I was then asked "why not follow southern and Gatwick express on Twitter"

I have replied asking pointedly how this is the case given that it is a southern operated service on southern route maps in the southern Franchise, and reminding them that Gatwick Express does not exist as a company or franchise.
 

JaJaWa

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I wonder if that will be how SN deal with it, if indeed they bother, once they are integrated with GTR - make it all first class.

This could be a good solution if they want to keep a premium. However what would happen to the First Class on board. Would it have to be sold as "First Plus"?

The best solution of maximising capacity however would actually be making the Gatwick Express cheaper or at least the same prices as the other trains. These are becoming even more overcrowded and delayed as more and more people try to save money. Let's hope Govia sees some sense, hopefully by the time Oyster comes in.
 

FenMan

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I wonder if that will be how SN deal with it, if indeed they bother, once they are integrated with GTR - make it all first class.

I doubt it. Many travel on Gatwick Express services using standard class Any Permitted tickets from origins beyond London. Imposing a first class rule would push these passengers into using alternative services.
 

cjmillsnun

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This could be a good solution if they want to keep a premium. However what would happen to the First Class on board. Would it have to be sold as "First Plus"?

The best solution of maximising capacity however would actually be making the Gatwick Express cheaper or at least the same prices as the other trains. These are becoming even more overcrowded and delayed as more and more people try to save money. Let's hope Govia sees some sense, hopefully by the time Oyster comes in.

*falls about laughing*.

It's not Govia who have to see sense, it's DAfT. And we know that will never happen
 

PermitToTravel

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Perhaps more seriously, are GTR obligated to run the Gatwick Express as a National Rail service? If those trains had, per Heathrow Express, their own regulations and conditions, with an acceptance of through National Rail tickets that included a supplement, the issue would be as good as solved.
 

yorkie

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Perhaps more seriously, are GTR obligated to run the Gatwick Express as a National Rail service? If those trains had, per Heathrow Express, their own regulations and conditions, with an acceptance of through National Rail tickets that included a supplement, the issue would be as good as solved.
Yes they do have to be National Rail services, and if they didn't accept "normal" tickets then they would not get any ORCATS revenue!
....but also stated "GatEx tickets are also valid on southern"....
Perhaps you could ask them what is a GatEx ticket? Is it one of these...?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=VIC&dest=GTW&tkt=SOR

ANYTIME R [SOR]
From LONDON VICTORIA
To GATWICK AIRPORT
Route ANY PERMITTED
Fare set by: NSC SOUTHERN
 

PermitToTravel

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Yes they do have to be National Rail services
If that's the case then they might want to look at negotiating an end to that.
and if they didn't accept "normal" tickets then they would not get any ORCATS revenue!
Why not? In the absence of any new agreements, it's still the case that they operate all the other trains to Gatwick Airport :lol:
 
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