Penalty Fare at Victoria (Southern vs Gat Ex)

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm confused by this:-

. . . if they didn't accept "normal" tickets then they would not get any ORCATS revenue!

Maybe you know something about the ORCATS algorithms that I don't know, but I fail to see a logically neccesary reason for the Company to be denied their revenue allocation for tickets sold over thir routes which is triggerd by the occasional refusal to accept tickets other than the dedicated "Gatwick Express" tickets.

 

[yorkie]

What dedicated Gatwick Express tickets?

An operator cannot simply decide not to accept inter-available tickets.

It's cropped up before where people suggest a particular operator should not accept inter-available tickets (often open access) and I've pointed out that to do so would mean loss of revenue under ORCATs, but as PermitToTravel points out, ORCATS isn't actually relevant here since the demise of various operators who used to serve Gatwick. So, they'll get their money regardless. But that doesn't mean a refusal to accept fares under the NRCoC could happen.

 

[crehld]

I'm confused by this:-
Maybe you know something about the ORCATS algorithms that I don't know, but I fail to see a logically neccesary reason for the Company to be denied their revenue allocation for tickets sold over thir routes which is triggerd by the occasional refusal to accept tickets other than the dedicated "Gatwick Express" tickets.

I believe the answer to your confusion can be found by looking at the question yorkie was answering. If Gatwick express were to be run outside of the national rail framework, à la Heathrow express, it would be unable to reap the financial reward through the system used by the national rail network to all allocate revenue, I.e ORCATS. In other words all the revenue Gatwick express trains receive from any permitted fares through the mysterious ORCATS system would cease to exist if the company chose to opt out from that system.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'm not arguing about the details of the National Rail revenue allocation system, but rather discussing the idea of the trains in question not being run as National Rail trains. Then the constraints of the NRCoC don't apply, the airport premium can be charged, and we can all rest easy knowing that the Southern Only route|TOC restriction is not incorrectly enforced anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe the answer to your confusion can be found by looking at the question yorkie was answering. If Gatwick express were to be run outside of the national rail framework, à la Heathrow express, it would be unable to reap the financial reward through the system used by the national rail network to all allocate revenue, I.e ORCATS. In other words all the revenue Gatwick express trains receive from any permitted fares through the mysterious ORCATS system would cease to exist if the company chose to opt out from that system.

There are through National Rail fares to Heathrow Rail. I can't imagine HEx don't receive any revenue for these...

 

[Starmill]

True.

Business Zone? If Chiltern can get away with it...

This is just bizarre, they aren't 'getting away' with anything! If you don't like that there's a business zone there don't sit in it!

It is down to intent vs. NRCoC. Greater Anglia do not intend to restrict their tickets from use on the Stansted Express. Southern do.

I have a lot of respect for you Neil. Don't throw it away by imagining that you know this sort of thing. You do not. To anyone else here who thinks they know what the Train Companies 'intend' - please don't get too high an opinion of yourself. For a start, it is often very very complicated and you simply cannot divine an original intent. For example Horsforth to Filey fares are only available in route 'DIRECT'. This journey cannot be made in fewer than two changes and some people at TransPennine seem to think it's only valid via Semer, others think its only valid via Hull - still others think its only valid via Harrogate, in combination with the previous two options. Other changes around this have been made since it was implemented such that nobody now knows exactly what was and was not intended for this and similar fares. Which brings me to the second point, which is that very often the people who created fares or designed these systems did not consider some eventualities, such as this one, that may arise. In the absence of any further judgements and changes made by the TOC, neither you nor they can purport to know what was intentional or otherwise. Think of it as a little bit like authorial intent when you have a good novel - you never will be able to tell exactly whether or not the author realised the effect of that snippet you picked up on.

All you have to go on are the facts, and they have been presented succinctly by yorkie on this particular topic many times over...

Bonus round: get the 'intention' of this fare right just by looking at it - PF if you make any mistakes though :P

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is just bizarre, they aren't 'getting away' with anything! If you don't like that there's a business zone there don't sit in it!

No, you miss my point a bit. I have no particular objection to the existence, I just think it should be shown in the timetable as First Class! There was some confusion with the VT "Blue Zone" because the NRCoC at the time didn't give a means to enforce it - as it wasn't all First Class, it was in part Standard, so provided you didn't partake of refreshments you could technically sit there.

For example Horsforth to Filey fares are only available in route 'DIRECT'. This journey cannot be made in fewer than two changes and some people at TransPennine seem to think it's only valid via Semer, others think its only valid via Hull - still others think its only valid via Harrogate, in combination with the previous two options.

I must admit I don't get the use of DIRECT as a routeing. I can't think of any of those that couldn't be done using a geographical route, a TOC route or a combination of the two.

Bonus round: get the 'intention' of this fare right just by looking at it - PF if you make any mistakes though :P

I'd suggest the intent of that is to allow travel on non-GatEx Southern trains from Gatwick to Victoria, then LU, then HEx to Heathrow. However on the face of it it's a screw-up, as it doesn't appear it would be valid at all beyond Paddington.

Oh dear, there are more:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MKC&dest=H584&rte=43&ldn=1&tkt=CDR

 

[maniacmartin]

Here's a crazy idea that might achieve what they want without changing the NRCoC, but would confuse everybody:

First, make a new station 'London Victoria Express' with its own code and move only the Gatwick Express platforms into it. It would be a member of London Terminals, and have a 1 minute connection time to the real London Victoria.

Next, change all 'NOT GAT EXP' tickets to 'NOT LON VIC EXPS'. Ditch 'SOUTHERN ONLY' as that won't make sense with the new merged franchise.

Obviously this would never happen , but there would be no arguing of the validity of tickets, and longer distance through tickets would have that GatEx validity preserved.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If they named the new station "Gatwick Express", then they wouldn't even need to change the route names. "NOT GAT EXP" would still have its intuitive meaning.

 

[infobleep]

I doubt it. Many travel on Gatwick Express services using standard class Any Permitted tickets from origins beyond London. Imposing a first class rule would push these passengers into using alternative services.

Does it matter to Govia if people are pushed onto other services if they make more money from those using the Gatwick Express services.?

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

Here's a crazy idea that might achieve what they want without changing the NRCoC, but would confuse everybody:

First, make a new station 'London Victoria Express' with its own code and move only the Gatwick Express platforms into it. It would be a member of London Terminals, and have a 1 minute connection time to the real London Victoria.

Next, change all 'NOT GAT EXP' tickets to 'NOT LON VIC EXPS'. Ditch 'SOUTHERN ONLY' as that won't make sense with the new merged franchise.

Obviously this would never happen , but there would be no arguing of the validity of tickets, and longer distance through tickets would have that GatEx validity preserved.

I think that they missed a trick by not utilising the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo. That could have been the self-enclosed terminal that would achieve aim of maniacmartin. The politics of it may be another matter though!

 

[First class]

I believe the answer to your confusion can be found by looking at the question yorkie was answering. If Gatwick express were to be run outside of the national rail framework, à la Heathrow express, it would be unable to reap the financial reward through the system used by the national rail network to all allocate revenue, I.e ORCATS. In other words all the revenue Gatwick express trains receive from any permitted fares through the mysterious ORCATS system would cease to exist if the company chose to opt out from that system.

This is entirely wrong.
ORCATS is just one way of distributing revenue.

 

[clagmonster]

Bonus round: get the 'intention' of this fare right just by looking at it - PF if you make any mistakes though :P

I'd suggest the intent of that is to allow travel on non-GatEx Southern trains from Gatwick to Victoria, then LU, then HEx to Heathrow. However on the face of it it's a screw-up, as it doesn't appear it would be valid at all beyond Paddington.

Oh dear, there are more:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MKC&dest=H584&rte=43&ldn=1&tkt=CDR

My understanding of the through fares to Heathrow Rail is that it is an add on to any fare to London Terminals, for a set price (possibly depending on ticket type, I can't remember). The routeing remains the same, with the exception that a Maltese cross is added. Validity is as intended for the equivalent ticket to London Terminals, then LUL to Paddington and Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect to the Airport.

 

[Busaholic]

Hi,

I landed into Gatwick and picked up a ticket (reading the details from it) OFF-PEAK TCDS Gatwick Airport & LONDON ZONES 1-6 Route SOUTHERN ONLY.

I traveled to Victoria and my ticket did not work on the barrier to leave the station. I gave it to the member of staff on the barrier and she said it was not valid on the Gatwick Express and I had to pay an 'excess'.

This could be a question you all know the answer to, but, if so, please forgive my ignorance. Does the Gatwick Express have its own platform/s at Victoria only accessible through its own ticket barriers? If not, and you just go through the myriad of Southern barriers, how do the barriers know whether you've travelled on GE or not: or is it they are programmed not to accept ANY Southern tickets from Gatwick without interrogation of the passenger by barrier staff?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding of the through fares to Heathrow Rail is that it is an add on to any fare to London Terminals, for a set price (possibly depending on ticket type, I can't remember). The routeing remains the same, with the exception that a Maltese cross is added. Validity is as intended for the equivalent ticket to London Terminals, then LUL to Paddington and Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect to the Airport.

Ah, thanks.

 

[tsr]

This could be a question you all know the answer to, but, if so, please forgive my ignorance. Does the Gatwick Express have its own platform/s at Victoria only accessible through its own ticket barriers? If not, and you just go through the myriad of Southern barriers, how do the barriers know whether you've travelled on GE or not: or is it they are programmed not to accept ANY Southern tickets from Gatwick without interrogation of the passenger by barrier staff?

Gatwick Express branded services usually (but not always) use platforms 13 and 14, which are either side of an island. The access to this island is, whilst used by GX services, controlled by a dedicated set of ticket barriers adjacent to Southern's Gatwick Express ticket office (plus barriers upstairs at the relatively little-used Victoria Place entrance). If, however, Southern branded trains use the platforms, further gates are opened to allow access to or from other parts of the station and Oyster readers (which are not present on the barriers to 13/14).

Staff on Platforms 13 & 14 sometimes work interchangeably at Gatwick or Victoria, and wear red uniforms, with the surrounding branding of that part of Victoria station and the whole of Gatwick Airport station in GX branding.

 

[Agent_c]

Thank you for contacting us on the 9th of July 2015 regarding your query. Please accept my apologies for the delay in our response.

I can confirm that both Southern and Gatwick Express are separate brands which are owned by the umbrella company Govia therefore we have a premium service for this route which operates separately from the other Southern services.

I hope that I have clarified this for you,

Looks like someone has been reading the threat. Gatwick Express is now a "Premium Service".

I have asked where in the NRCOC and/or Franchise agreement operating a "Premium service" is permitted.

 

[transmanche]

I have asked where in the NRCOC and/or Franchise agreement operating a "Premium service" is permitted.

Where in the NRCOC and/or franchise agreement is operating a premium service prohibited?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm fairly sure the Gatwick express services and brand are owned and run by Southern. Is there any indication anywhere else that Govia own these except by virtue of owning Southern?

 

[transmanche]

I'm fairly sure the Gatwick express services and brand are owned and run by Southern. Is there any indication anywhere else that Govia own these except by virtue of owning Southern?

The trademark 'Gatwick Express' is owned by the Secretary of State for Transport.

Source: IPO

 

[Busaholic]

The trademark 'Gatwick Express' is owned by the Secretary of State for Transport.

Source: IPO

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The trademark 'Gatwick Express' is owned by the Secretary of State for Transport.

The SoS of a Department which licences the use of the name to its franchisee.

Looks like someone has been reading the threat. Gatwick Express is now a "Premium Service".

I have asked where in the NRCOC and/or Franchise agreement operating a "Premium service" is permitted.

You really can't read anything into that brief message to you which will be of assistance in answering the question of the validity of 'Southern' tickets on "Gatwick Express" services.

 

[transmanche]

The SoS of a Department which licences the use of the name to its franchisee.

Yes, as well as owning a whole host of other railway-related trademarks - many/most of which are no longer actively used (e.g. Regional Railways, Skytrain, the InterCity Swallow, Golden Arrow and so on...).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, as well as owning a whole host of other railway-related trademarks - many/most of which are no longer actively used (e.g. Regional Railways, Skytrain, the InterCity Swallow, Golden Arrow and so on...).

Indeed.
And these will be of even less assistance in answering the question of the validity of 'Southern' tickets on "Gatwick Express" services.

 

[Agent_c]

The SoS of a Department which licences the use of the name to its franchisee.

You really can't read anything into that brief message to you which will be of assistance in answering the question of the validity of 'Southern' tickets on "Gatwick Express" services.

I meant it somewhat humourously, as that was a theory promoted earlier, not a serious accusation

 

[yorkie]

You could follow this up by asking "Can you clarify who operates the Gatwick Express?"

Southern is owned by Govia, but the claim that Gatwick Express is owned by Govia is nonsense; it's not owned by Govia but is a brand name that Southern are required, by the DfT, to use as part of the Southern franchise agreement.

However the person who wrote, or copied and pasted, the wording of your letter wouldn't have a clue, and giving out misleading or inaccurate information isn't going to have any consequence as there's no ombudsman to do anything about it.

 

[transmanche]

Indeed.
And these will be of even less assistance in answering the question of the validity of 'Southern' tickets on "Gatwick Express" services.

Being as there will never be a consensus on this forum regarding that, we may as well enjoy some diversions along the way...

 

[Flamingo]

Being as there will never be a consensus on this forum regarding that, we may as well enjoy some diversions along the way...

So, what is your favourite diversionary route? Mine is the Vale of Glamorgan, I love the bit on the Portkerry Viaduct, cracking Southern view, and then you go through Rhoose for Cardiff International Airport, I wonder if there is a premium for trains stopping there?...

 

[yorkie]

Being as there will never be a consensus on this forum regarding that, we may as well enjoy some diversions along the way...

Diversions you say? That reminds me of the Gatwick "Express" diversions via Crystal Palace when the other Southern services were using the normal route and were faster. Needless to say Southern staff were advising people that the "Express" was quicker, even though it wasn't!

 

[sarahj]

Oh the things I could say about this whole thread, the letter, even yorkies last post, but I just cannot. All I can do is this and eat some popcorn.

 

[najaB]

Oh the things I could say about this whole thread, the letter, even yorkies last post, but I just cannot. All I can do is this and eat some popcorn.

Social media policies and all that. I know how you feel when it comes to telecoms.