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People coming here for prosecution advice

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Flamingo

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I think because FCC's revenue team are so prolific at catching fare evaders (hint to all TOCs and McNumpty - barriers don't stop the dodgers), it's impossible for them to prosecute everyone. So, they are perfectly happy to settle the minor cases out of Court - nice little revenue stream too!

I do wonder that if all TOC's pursued revenue as vigorously as FCC, what would be the overall result in terms of the revenue take across the country, and if there would be a resultant drop in the subsidy required by the railway.

I know there is the old 90% - 10% arguement, but I do think that the TOC's I have experience of pay only lip-service to Revenue enforcement, partially because it is seen as too much hassle, and it is not really required to produce a adequate return on their investment.

I know it is not very scientific, but which TOC's very rarely or never feature in the tales of sorrow and woe that turn up on here? Does this mean that everybody who is caught by these TOC's is saying "It's a fair cop", or that they are simply not being caught, or if caught just being charged a ticket and sent on their way rejoicing?
 
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Ferret

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I dunno, my employers are becoming quite strict on revenue enforcement, and I think I've so far seen just one thread regarding 'us'. It seems that there is an acceptance that train companies need to collect as much revenue as they can, and if the First West Coast franchise ever starts, I expect the cushy days of 'letting people off' will go out of the window there. We'll see.

As for this forum, I favour a sticky along the lines of:

1. This is not a magician's forum where we can assist you in getting away with blatant fare evasion.

2. If you would like help, please be honest and up front with what has occured, and do not waste our time by bulls##tting us!

3. Please don't be offended if some of the more forthright members tell you off!

Others may wish to add more!
 

jon0844

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(FCC) ...they are perfectly happy to settle the minor cases out of Court - nice little revenue stream too!

Very nice. That's why I think they're increasingly going down this route; catch offender, skip PF and go for prosecution, approach later and ask for out of court settlement and a hint of what that settlement figure should be (thus, no intention to prosecute ever really existed as this is costly and time consuming).

Much better revenue than £20.

I do expect them to proceed with prosecutions for more serious offences, or where someone has been under surveillance for some time, but I wonder how many out of court settlements FCC are getting now - and if the number of PFs given have noticeably fallen?

On the plus side; It might just send out the right messages to anyone considering it okay to try it on when using FCC. Naturally, I can expect that the reputation of the TOC will be hit as the people stung this way (even when totally fairly) are bound to then go on the offensive using forums, Facebook, Twitter and when retelling their story down the pub (adding in all the extra stuff about the staff being rude etc).
 

Ferret

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*Much* better revenue than 20 quid, and much more of a deterrent too. They've obviously figured that PFs are not as effective as they hoped.....
 

Greenback

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I think because FCC's revenue team are so prolific at catching fare evaders (hint to all TOCs and McNumpty - barriers don't stop the dodgers), it's impossible for them to prosecute everyone. So, they are perfectly happy to settle the minor cases out of Court - nice little revenue stream too!

Indeed, as they have DOO I think FCC have to be more proactive than other TOC's in order to have soem sor tof deterrent in place. Let's face it, £20 is not going to mean much to a lot of the people that will deliberately chance travelling without a valid ticket.

In contrast, the possibility of being taken to court with a criminal record as the outcome tends to focus the mind a lot more.

I do wonder that if all TOC's pursued revenue as vigorously as FCC, what would be the overall result in terms of the revenue take across the country, and if there would be a resultant drop in the subsidy required by the railway.

I know there is the old 90% - 10% arguement, but I do think that the TOC's I have experience of pay only lip-service to Revenue enforcement, partially because it is seen as too much hassle, and it is not really required to produce a adequate return on their investment.

I know it is not very scientific, but which TOC's very rarely or never feature in the tales of sorrow and woe that turn up on here? Does this mean that everybody who is caught by these TOC's is saying "It's a fair cop", or that they are simply not being caught, or if caught just being charged a ticket and sent on their way rejoicing?

I wonder about this too. Though I would expect a higher proportion of reports to come from the London area simply due to the numbers travelling, there do seem to be a lot more than there should be.

But it may simply be that FCC have chosen to go for more prosecutions because of the deterrent factor.

*Much* better revenue than 20 quid, and much more of a deterrent too. They've obviously figured that PFs are not as effective as they hoped.....

PF's are only effective at penalising those who make an honest mistake! They seem to have little effect on chancers and serial evaders, who may even look forward to getting caught and receiving a PF from time to time so that they can convince themselves they are acting in a moral way!

All in all this a very interesting thread with some good points made.
 

jon0844

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I think it's long overdue to consider increasing the PF (in London it is £80, reduced to £40 if paid promptly), or having two grades to make the system fairer.

Thus, travelling on a FCC train with a GA ticket might be £20. Having no ticket when there were facilities available, £80.
 

DaveNewcastle

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A very interesting debate. As most of you know, I have responded to several of those 'plea for help' posts by newcomers to the forum over recent years, and have, in a few cases, continued to offer assistance and advice off-forum in a few of these from here and elsewhere.
So while I will preserve confidentiality, I can add some generalised remarks which might help to understand how these newcomers find the experience.

Firstly, it is true that the majority enjoy an outcome that is some sort of Settlement rather than a Prosecution and it's also true that I tend to keep away from most threads started by the most blatant evaders and the most self-centred OPs.
However, even those who do enjoy an eventual reprieve tend to have a long wait, with uncertainty and the potential of a Criminal Prosecution hanging in front of them. In some cases where I have provided a phone number I can much more easily 'read' the state of mind of a person and can assure you that the persistent delay and uncertainty has a powerful effect on them. By dragging the wait of fear and anxiety on, for more than 6 months, can have a more lasting influence than a quick fine would have. So based on this observation alone, I'm not able to agree that 'help' from the forum actually assists fare dodgers to get off their just punishment - it can actually make it a more memorable lesson and possibly as lucrative an outcome for the TOC.

Secondly, it gives me the opportunity to comment on the 'loophole' argument. There was one matter which was recently concluded without a report back by me or the OP, for fear of 'encouraging' loophole dodgers. But nevertheless, there really was a substantive error by the TOC and despite advice from others to apologise and seek a settlement, we managed to have the Prosecution dropped (with no apology and no suggestion of settlement). There was a similar situation a little over a year ago with a similar outcome. Some of my friends on here may be dissapointed if these really had been genuine 'evaders' and the forum had assisted them in avoiding a penalty, but I'll stand by my view that if there is an error of fact in the prosecution, then the matter should fail, just as an error of fact by a passenger should be considered for triggering an investigation.

On balance, I do not feel that the reputation of the forum is at risk as a consequence of offers of advice, explanation and even assistance to those detected of apparent ticketless travel (or other irregularity). The replies do not appear to give a disproportionate impression of false prospects. I do, however, have strong concerns when I see innappropriate or uninformed 'advice' or opinions being posted, maybe well-intended, maybe based on a personal experience and often wrong; that these will be read by others (including industry professionals) who may well be misled as a consequence. I regret that. The suggestion above of simply not responding to someone who is clearly an unremorseful repeat evader is unlikely to work unless 'locked' by a moderator, as there always appears to be someone who will chip in with a "what stations?" or "write an apology" or innapropriate analogies or views such as "they're all rude".

Finally, the tendency to blame the accuser is surely human nature for many people, very unpleasant as it is. I have often remarked that I could never do the job of a Guard or Inspector, and one of the reasons is just because of that - I would expect to receive abusive and angry retorts from my public when I detect an irregularity and I wouldn't have the disposition to accept it for long. Its how people are, and much as I detest it, I'm not one to deal with it. Which is all the more reason for us on here to show support and understanding to those professionals who are at the front line of revenue duties.
 

snail

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This is an interesting thread. I don't really see the value of a 'sticky' post offering general advice, we will still get people coming here with no post history, offering their story and seeking advice.

Generally, the responses to these threads appear well balanced to me. People get sympathy and suggestions if they need it, but will also be asked challenging questions that may make them think twice about 'trying it on' either with us or with the TOC.
 

CheapAndNerdy

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Except in cases of persistent or high-value evasion, I cannot see that a TOC would have any particular interest in giving someone a criminal record. Their prime concern is revenue protection.

A few posts in this thread have made reference to an "income stream" and, speaking from no knowledge on the matter :D, I would have thought that it was more cost effective for a TOC to extract an out of court settlement. Maybe all the good advice given here plays quite happily with the TOC legal departments.

From the perspective of an "evader" while they may well be very relieved not to have to go to court, they still have to stump up a fair old wodge.
 

muttynut

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i know for a fact that this forum has been tagged for monitoring by a certain TOC as some of the advice been given is wrong but remember this is the internet and i dont think anything could be done about it although i have had posts removed by mods just for saying if you get caught breaking the law you will suffer the consequences .... lets see if this post is removed haha
 

MidnightFlyer

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I still believe that the existing Fares and Ticketing forum is the best place for these queries to be answered.

I wondered when this new thread started whether this too should have been on that forum rather than the General Discussion forum, as this would be the most obvious place for it to have been seen by those forum members with a deep knowledge of this matter.

I believe it was in the FTR forum originally, for whatever reason the staff have moved it here.

I agree with MCR247 here, I think that these matters are best dealt with separately - prosecution cases are big issues that only a small number of members can properly deal with, and it of the greatest salience that everything is dealt with perfectly. The more general queries are in a different field altogether and are often the place for debate, discussion and other such guidance - if two forums are what are needed to separate these topics then so be it IMO. I often wonder just how many genuine questions and decent ticket finds are missed by the masses on here because more 'interesting' legal guidance threads are going on nearby. I think in a way it would also help those asking - if we can consign any previous or current prosecutions thread to a new sub-forum then it will be easier for people to look through and maybe gain the guidance they need without asking.
 

richw

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Going back to FCC, the "bad" publicity by people caught fare dodging sharing in social media could in fact be swung to good publicity for the TOC. It will encourage others to buy a ticket rather than risk having a big out of court settlement/ criminal record etc. Therefore a win win for the TOC. Fare dodger has been prosecuted/ fined etc and none of their friends family or acquaintances will want to get the same so will buy tickets
 

jon0844

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On my train home tonight, a family caught without a railcard. Two adults and two kids.

Woman seemed surprised she needed to show a railcard and then argued with partner about not bringing it. She was then told she would need to pay a PF. Woman said she didn't have any money.

The second RPI then came over to speak to the man and started taking further details in addition to the RPI dealing with the woman. He asked if he had to pay £20 and was told no, as he was simply taking a statement.

The man asked about the kids and was told that they weren't bothered about them.

Am I right in assuming they'll give a PF to one and refer the other to court? I really couldn't figure out what was going to happen but bit my lip and let them do their job.

I will add that the FCC staff were calm and polite the whole time, in case we read about this in the press or even this forum in the coming days!
 

Flamingo

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I just want to thank Dave for his (as ever) reasoned post. I do agree with him that if a TOC is taking a prosecution, no more than the CPS, they must be capable of preparing their case correctly - after all, they are the professionals.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I agree with MCR247 here, I think that these matters are best dealt with separately - prosecution cases are big issues that only a small number of members can properly deal with, and it of the greatest salience that everything is dealt with perfectly.

Has anyone thought to ask the forum administrators and moderators to see if they feel that this is something that they will eventually sanction ?
 

jon0844

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How do you get into the Batcave? My ticket keeps getting rejected at the gates they've installed.
 

jon0844

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But I have a ticket, honest, I just left it at home.. and my dog ate the railcard.

I have a good mind to complain about your bad attitude now...
 

Flamingo

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But I have a ticket, honest, I just left it at home.. and my dog ate the railcard.

I have a good mind to complain about your bad attitude now...

Bring it on :-P, everybody else does :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see another one has turned up, http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71378 and the more I read of his thread and evasive half-answers, the more convinced I am that he was caught bang to rights.

To bring up Jon's original point again and put it more bluntly, are we are being used as a letter-composing service by fare-dodgers?
 

DaveNewcastle

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I was slightly surprised that soil has now written an 'explanation and apology' letter for amit on that thread. I wouldn't have done so.

But while amit may well have been deliberately abusing a ticket (and equally may not), the responses in the form of criticisms of amit's grammar, ability to use a computer, etc. are unproductive failures to use criticism effectively.

Isn't it inevitable that people in amit's position will find this forum, join and ask for help?
 

jon0844

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I'm unclear on that one, as if the ticket was bought the day before (but to start the following day) then it should have been a simple excess. But, I am not sure the OP there would have known to ask for that, or quite frankly, been able to do ask for that.

And if it's something done regularly then that also conjures up loads of additional questions!

Fortunately, if they've been watching him and building up a case from previous usage of incorrect tickets, then no letter is going to help.
 

Flamingo

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My understanding is that he worked night shift, used the outer portion of an off-peak day ticket to get to work, and was trying to use the expired return portion to travel home after work.

As it was his job, it is not unreasonable to assume he does this daily.
 

snail

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I was slightly surprised that soil has now written an 'explanation and apology' letter for amit on that thread. I wouldn't have done so.
Yes, I think that may be going too far for the forum without 'official' sanction from the mods. It could be very risky for the forum's reputation if another person picks it up and tries to use it in different circumstances.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I see that Island has posted some very helpful advice at the start of a thread today. It would make a good template for posting in future threads of this type.

Welcome to the forum. You're in the right place.

Over the course of the next few posts, people may ask you for further questions and clarification, and may challenge some of the answers you give. Please don't take this as us accusing you of anything, but rather helping you to defend your case, as these are questions you could well be asked for real later on. It's ultimately up to you what information you give us here (and this is a public forum), but please, once you've decided what you're going to tell us, don't drip-feed it over several posts. We'll do our best to help you and explain the next steps of what happens. We also will tell it as it is; there are other forums who apply a "customer is always right" attitude but if we think you've dug yourself a hole we will tell you.
 
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WelshBluebird

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I am of mixed opinion about this.

Firstly I also am uncomfortable with people who clearly were trying to avoid paying coming here and asking how to get off. IMO threads like that should not be allowed on the forum at all.

However, at the same time I feel that sometimes some members are too harsh on people who seem to have made genuine mistakes or who have found themselves in the situation through no fault of their own. Indeed I think this is symptomatic of the railway industry in general anyway - but that is a different issue for a different time.

The real problem of course is that there is sometimes a grey area between the two, or cases where someone may present their situation as being an honest mistake but after some digging it turns out that actually they didn't bother to try to sort it out when they should have, and so fall more into the "deliberate" group. Again, this is pretty much identical to the issue rail staff face when on duty. But IMO the legal and moral situation in this country is that you are innocent unless PROVEN guilty. That should be the case really, and I don't really understand why certain members assume someone is lying when there is nothing to suggest that is the case.
 
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Mr Spock

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I'm unclear on that one, as if the ticket was bought the day before (but to start the following day) then it should have been a simple excess. But, I am not sure the OP there would have known to ask for that, or quite frankly, been able to do ask for that.

If I read the following correctly the OP did want to buy an excess and appeared to agree that his ticket wa not valid (post 30):-

"inspector ask me Q LIKE

What is ur final destination? where u board this train ? do u know that ur travelling on off pick ticket? fist i say no then i later on say i made a mistake .and i told that i will buy the exess ticket on board but there was no ticket inspector. they read the caution. to me ."
 
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