Perennial Service Suggestions

[Class377/5]

Didn't they go via Kensington Olympia?

Last time I looked, that was zone 2.

WLL is considered avoiding London for though journeys. Other wise you'd be going via Oxford which itself could be a new journey chance.

 

[Class83]

Which stations are currently underserved on the ECML north of Newcastle? Most get a reasonable service, the biggest "problem" is probably the lack of clockface times and the lack of services *between* them (e.g. Alnmouth to Berwick or Morpeth ought to be a reasonable flow, but many Alnmouth services fail to stop at either of the other stations).

The difficulty is that any "local" service is going to be snared up between the current fast ones (which may be even faster if they can now avoid stopping at places like Alnmouth).

The station which I think does worst on that section of line would be Mussleburgh - but then I was a big fan of the GNER pipe-dream for an East Lothian Parkway - am sure there's a decent market there for people who don't fancy driving into Edinburgh (albeit slightly tempered by the opening of Newcraighall).

Berwick manages not quite hourly, the rest are a bit sporadic. I have thought that removing all stops between Edinburgh and Newcastle from the Edinburgh-London trains, then have an hourly Edinburgh-Newcastle stopping at Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth timed to arrive at Newcastle to connect to a London Service and likewise Northbound. It wouldn't please the 'direct train to London' people, but most would actually get a better service; regular with local connections hourly for the intermediate stations and slightly faster for long distance passengers.

Edinburgh to Newcastle is 1h22m (non-stop), 1h38m (all stops) and 1h26m is the best with 1 stop. So a stop costs 4 mins including slowing down and speeding back up.

 

[BrianTheLion]

Berwick manages not quite hourly, the rest are a bit sporadic. I have thought that removing all stops between Edinburgh and Newcastle from the Edinburgh-London trains, then have an hourly Edinburgh-Newcastle stopping at Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth timed to arrive at Newcastle to connect to a London Service and likewise Northbound. It wouldn't please the 'direct train to London' people, but most would actually get a better service; regular with local connections hourly for the intermediate stations and slightly faster for long distance passengers.

Edinburgh to Newcastle is 1h22m (non-stop), 1h38m (all stops) and 1h26m is the best with 1 stop. So a stop costs 4 mins including slowing down and speeding back up.

This is a great idea. I like your thinking.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is a great idea. I like your thinking.

The 2010 ECML RUS has a few pages of analysis of a Newcastle - Edinburgh semi-fast service. They basically came down against it due to poor value for money.

 

[Spaceflower]

This is a great idea. I like your thinking.

The truth is, its money that dictates the services, not need or practical common sense.

That part of Northumberland is fairly well-off.

 

[TheWalrus]

I would personally put on more stops if possible, most stations north of Drem have no Newcastle-bound services and some of the stations just north of Newcastle, absorbing Dunbar-Edinburgh services and Newcastle-Morpeth local services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You don't need half-hourly service on there a 158 every hour is plenty enough capacity during the day!

Growth is fairly steady on the line, a hourly London service is needed. But personally extra train services will stimulate growth.

You could say that about most lines. However I don't think it's justifiable to increase an hourly service to half-hourly when the loadings would comfortably fit in a 153 during the daytime.

I would think this is the thinking used by TOCs. However I do agree that Cheltenham and Gloucester should have an hourly service to London. I would also suggest line speed improvements and changes to paths to improve journey times making it a more attractive journey. I would also consider reopening Gloucester Eastgate station to avoid turnaround at Gloucester.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its a curious paradox on this thread that posters are stating what they would like to see in terms of passenger services. Eagle has just mentioned freight.....and in fact a question which might involve a bit more thinking about is " What passenger services do you think we should give up so that freight could have greater access ? "

This would appear to be a bit more challenging - I d be interested to see just what views actually appear on here

Seeing as no one has answered this, I will start the hand with the obvious one:

Felixstowe branch.

 

[Spaceflower]

Double it.

 

[Drsatan]

Seeing as no one has answered this, I will start the hand with the obvious one:

Felixstowe branch.

I can see the logic, considering I've heard an anecdote that on a typical weekday, a bus could comfortably accommodate the number of passengers on an Ipswich to Felixstowe service.

However, any bus service would need to accommodate bikes, buggies and lots of luggage - three things most RRBs will not accept unless the driver uses his discretion.

 

[Darren R]

Originally Posted by Buttsy
Leeds - Castleford - York

Perhaps this is the route the Blackpool - York (extended to Scarborough) could run once the main TP route is wired

I have always thought that this should be a route, stopping Castleford, Sherburn in Elmet, Church Fenton and York.

Peak stops at Ulleskelf and Woodlesford.

Benefits, more services to York from Church Fenton and Sherburn in Elmet, new Leeds service for Sherburn in Elmet, connection to York for Castleford.

Would certainly require second platform at Castleford. But it is something i think should be a medium term aspiration. (ie CP6)

I hope this is a new service you're talking about, not a diversion of the current York to Blackpools! Personally speaking, I think it takes it quite long enough to get from East Lancs to York, without adding any further meanderings around Yorkshire! Besides, I'm not entirely convinced of a huge demand for journeys twixt Accy and Sherburn-Elmet!

I'd have thought extending some of the current Leeds/Wakefield to Castleford services onward to York a better idea.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I hope this is a new service you're talking about, not a diversion of the current York to Blackpools! Personally speaking, I think it takes it quite long enough to get from East Lancs to York, without adding any further meanderings around Yorkshire! Besides, I'm not entirely convinced of a huge demand for journeys twixt Accy and Sherburn-Elmet!

I'd have thought extending some of the current Leeds/Wakefield to Castleford services onward to York a better idea.

Yes a new service don't worry

 

[Darren R]

That's OK then!

 

[YorkshireBear]

That's OK then!

Good news is from 2018 your service will be sped up! It will only be stopping at Garforth between Leeds and York :P

 

[Darren R]

Good news is from 2018 your service will be sped up! It will only be stopping at Garforth between Leeds and York :P

Didn't know about that - why from 2018? What's happening then?

Back to Castleford to York services though, what about extending the current Huddersfield to Wakefields to run via Castleford to York, instead of them reversing back up to Westgate. The point of them going to Westgate (connections with the ECML from Huddersfield) is largely unneccessary now, and this would give an improved service at Castleford and open up new travel opportunities.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Didn't know about that - why from 2018? What's happening then?

Back to Castleford to York services though, what about extending the current Huddersfield to Wakefields to run via Castleford to York, instead of them reversing back up to Westgate. The point of them going to Westgate (connections with the ECML from Huddersfield) is largely unneccessary now, and this would give an improved service at Castleford and open up new travel opportunities.

It is probably more sensible actually so yes.

Electrification, York service extended to Scarborough to replace lost service due to electric rolling stock. Other stops removed and replaced by EMU stopper.

 

[Darren R]

Ah, that explains it! Hadn't realised the wires would be up and running by then - thought it was a bit later than 2018.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The point of them going to Westgate (connections with the ECML from Huddersfield) is largely unneccessary now.

Why is it "unnecessary"? There are no direct services from Huddersfield onto the ECML.

Only 3 Trains a day from Brighouse or Mirfield is in no way a replacement for the now more reliable shuttles from Huddersfield to Westgate.

 

[Buttsy]

Why is it "unnecessary"? There are no direct services from Huddersfield onto the ECML.

Only 3 Trains a day from Brighouse or Mirfield is in no way a replacement for the now more reliable shuttles from Huddersfield to Westgate.

So the quarter-hourly service to Leeds doesn't count as a direct service onto the ECML?????

 

[Carlisle]

Studies into the possibility of allowing the pendilinos to reach 130 -140mph on certain bits of the WCML seem to surface fairly regularly then go silent

 

[cuccir]

Berwick manages not quite hourly, the rest are a bit sporadic. I have thought that removing all stops between Edinburgh and Newcastle from the Edinburgh-London trains, then have an hourly Edinburgh-Newcastle stopping at Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth timed to arrive at Newcastle to connect to a London Service and likewise Northbound. It wouldn't please the 'direct train to London' people, but most would actually get a better service; regular with local connections hourly for the intermediate stations and slightly faster for long distance passengers.

Edinburgh to Newcastle is 1h22m (non-stop), 1h38m (all stops) and 1h26m is the best with 1 stop. So a stop costs 4 mins including slowing down and speeding back up.

A nice addition to this would be if, say, every third or fourth local train (working out at 3 services a day perhaps) was a proper 'stopper', serving also the smaller Northumberland and and East Lothian stations too.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So the quarter-hourly service to Leeds doesn't count as a direct service onto the ECML?????

No, it doesn't. The shuttle serves more than just Huddersfield.

Not to mention the extra 40 min's added to a journey minimum.

 

[Buttsy]

No, it doesn't. The shuttle serves more than just Huddersfield.

Not to mention the extra 40 min's added to a journey minimum.

And there was me thinking that Leeds was on the EMCL...

Your point is taken, but being pedantic, your statement is false.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

And there was me thinking that Leeds was on the EMCL...

Your point is taken, but being pedantic, your statement is false.

NO service from Huddersfield goes onto the ECML towards London.
They connect, as do the shuttles, but take a Train from Huddersfield to Leeds, then back through to Wakefield is a waste of time and money, as tickets from Huddersfield to Wakefield cost almost double as compared to the direct route.

Leeds is NOT on the ECML, it is at the end of a branch of it.

It's not "pedantic" to be accurate.

 

[Buttsy]

NO service from Huddersfield goes onto the ECML towards London.
They connect, as do the shuttles, but take a Train from Huddersfield to Leeds, then back through to Wakefield is a waste of time and money, as tickets from Huddersfield to Wakefield cost almost double as compared to the direct route.

Leeds is NOT on the ECML, it is at the end of a branch of it.

It's not "pedantic" to be accurate.

If Leeds isn't on the ECML, then neither is Wakefield, so even with the shuttle, there are no direct services from Huddersfield to the ECML south of York, to be "accurate".

 

[YorkshireBear]

If Leeds isn't on the ECML, then neither is Wakefield, so even with the shuttle, there are no direct services from Huddersfield to the ECML south of York, to be "accurate".

You are quite correct if he wants to go down that route. You would question if going via Leeds is more convenient due to increased service Leeds-Huddersfield than Wakefield Huddersfield.

Looking online it is actually more efficient from Huddersfield to London to go via Piccadilly! More options per hour at 3 and also! only 5 minutes slower than Westgate, although of course Manchester is only the end of a branch of the WCML.... and the exact same on the day price for both routes too...

 

[tbtc]

The biggest issue I have with the current Huddersfield - Wakefield service is the fact that it cuts across the (branch of the) ECML at Westgate, which can delay longer distance services.

With at least six trains an hour from Huddersfield to Leeds (AFAICS there's going to be six "fast" trains plus the continued hourly "stopper"?) when the line is electrified, there's going to be no shortage of connections at Leeds.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

If Leeds isn't on the ECML, then neither is Wakefield, so even with the shuttle, there are no direct services from Huddersfield to the ECML south of York, to be "accurate".

Wakefield is ON the ECML, Leeds is at the END of the Leeds Branch of the ECML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The biggest issue I have with the current Huddersfield - Wakefield service is the fact that it cuts across the (branch of the) ECML at Westgate, which can delay longer distance services.

With at least six trains an hour from Huddersfield to Leeds (AFAICS there's going to be six "fast" trains plus the continued hourly "stopper"?) when the line is electrified, there's going to be no shortage of connections at Leeds.

Or, go via Kirkgate, and save at least 40 mins on the end to end journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The biggest issue I have with the current Huddersfield - Wakefield service is the fact that it cuts across the (branch of the) ECML at Westgate, which can delay longer distance services.

No it doesn't.

The Huddersfield to Westgate trains generally arrive on P1. If there is a "longer distance Train", it will wait on the Kirkgate - Westgate chord.
I have never known the shuttle delay anything.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wakefield is ON the ECML, Leeds is at the END of the Leeds Branch of the ECML.



No it doesn't.

The Huddersfield to Westgate trains generally arrive on P1. If there is a "longer distance Train", it will wait on the Kirkgate - Westgate chord.
I have never known the shuttle delay anything.

So how is Leeds not on the ECML as you stated earlier!

And i have seen it regularly. Mostly Cross Country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The biggest issue I have with the current Huddersfield - Wakefield service is the fact that it cuts across the (branch of the) ECML at Westgate, which can delay longer distance services.

With at least six trains an hour from Huddersfield to Leeds (AFAICS there's going to be six "fast" trains plus the continued half hourly "stopper"?) when the line is electrified, there's going to be no shortage of connections at Leeds.

Note bold amendment. Further supporting your point.

 

[tbtc]

Or, go via Kirkgate, and save at least 40 mins on the end to end journey time

Well, if you want to use the GC service from Kirkgate then there's even less need for a direct service from Huddersfield to Westgate, surely?

No it doesn't.

The Huddersfield to Westgate trains generally arrive on P1. If there is a "longer distance Train", it will wait on the Kirkgate - Westgate chord.
I have never known the shuttle delay anything.

AFAICR the Huddersfield to Westgate services cross the southbound line to get to the northbound line then shunt up to the sidings by the prison, thus stopping trains in either direction on the ECML.

Then they cross back over the two lines of the ECML to get back down to Kirkgate on their journey back to Huddersfield, thus stopping any other trains.

Seems a waste of capacity on a busy section of railway through Westgate.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So how is Leeds not on the ECML as you stated earlier!

And i have seen it regularly. Mostly Cross Country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Note bold amendment. Further supporting your point.

Why would a passenger spend more money and at least an extra 40 min's going via Leeds.