Perfect Multiple Unit

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by HSTEd, 29 Oct 2011.

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  1. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Well basically I thought it might nice to assemble a list of specifications taking parts from all existing EMU/DMU families to create a perfect multiple unit train for regional/outer commuter services.


    Well to start with for the EMU:
    • Class 444 level interiors
    • Improved toilets compared to the Cl444.
    • 2+2 seating in second class
    • 2+1 seating in first class
    • Alstom Onix traction electronics [proven design which is commonly used]
    • Alstom Permenant Magnet traction motors for low maintenance
    • Gangwayed end cabs at both ends
    • Option for "mini-buffet"
    • Be capable of 110mph operation
    • Be capable of dual voltage operation (750V and 25kV)
    • WiFi equipment installed throughout

    To keep parts similarity to the highest level possible the diesel variation should be a DEMU:
    • Be fittable with equipment to allow later conversion to an EDMU
    • Possibly use Class 210/SR DEMU style fitting of above-deck diesel engines in the end vehicles
    • If the former is undertaken, attempt to retain through gangways for passenger use
    Any other thoughts/suggestions?

    EMU standard configurations (WIP)
    • 5 carriage - DPTSO, MSO, MSO, TRFM, DTFO - London-Norwich or similar
    • 5 carriage - DPTSO, MSO, MSO, TSO, DTFO - London-Norwich, Northern TPE and similar
     
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2011
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  3. Flywaver

    Flywaver Member

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    What is this obsession with gangways! As a Driver we are never asked the perfect train. Not has the Driver lost a decent cab size as well as it being a Loco.He/She is reduced to a cupboard.... Multiple Units should be kept on Surburban routes. Its shocking they are allowed from London to Crewe. Fair enough perhaps the 100 mile mark is MU territory as Kings Lynn - KX is similar distance..
    Can i add that Gangways reduce the Drivers view considerably. I have heard especially with recent stock such as the 172.. If Units have guards they dont need gangways..
     
  4. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    No, i think i'd be in favour of gangways, it does make moving from unit to unit a lot easier.

    :-?

    One thing that wasn't mentioned in the specification was bogies; and that's somewhere I do think modern stock has never really equalled BR. So we might perhaps use class 442 bogies (trailer bogies, anyway), and i don't care if they're not Approved any more or whatever bureaucratic nonsense there might be.

    ** And if we're using class 444 interior as a basis, I hope we use a better design of toilets, since that's not one of the strongest points either.

    :-!
     
  5. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    In this case perhaps to allow passengers to access the TRFM?
    Also to enable passenger loading to spread more evenly throughout the train and reducing station delays at splitting locations by enabling people to move to the correct carriages prior to reaching the split point. Especially if SDO is required in some areas.

    Interesting question on the bogie designs, but Im not really quite knowledgeable enough in that area
     
  6. mallard

    mallard Established Member

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    Gangways have been used on SR EMUs for over 70 years. Get used to it.

    Not having gangways means that catering, first class*, etc. have to be duplicated or restricted to only some of the passengers. It also makes stopping at short platforms considerably harder and means you get uneven loading of the train.

    * First class is particularly difficult because passengers like to be informed of its location before they board, rather difficult when it's in two different places and may be unevenly loaded because passengers for certain stations have to be in the front unit.

    The fairly minor and well-accepted (in the former SR at least) inconvenience of gangways to the driver is far outweighed by the convenience to the passengers and operating concerns. No wonder the entire Sprinter series were designed with them (apart from some 150's with provision, but not fitting).
     
  7. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    It appears that the diesel variations of the Stadler GTW have the diesel engine above-deck between the two components of the [articulated] train with passengers able to move between the two, this would seem to indicate that it would be feasible to have a corridor bypassing the "engine bay" in the EDMU variation, allowing retention of the gangway.

    Perhaps the room consumed by the engine can be partially made up by removing any toilet facilities from the end vehicles?
    As for the engine itself it seems likely that a 5 carriage train will require roughly 2400hp so it might be wise to fit a pair of QST-30s if those can be made to fit.

    They are 1.5m wide apparently, and with a vehicle width of 2.7m you can probably fit a gangway once you include some noise insulation, shouldnt effect the ambience in the rest of the coach much if the gangway has a door fitted on the inner end.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2011
  8. 142094

    142094 Established Member

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    Perfect MU = 142. :)
     
  9. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    It's the 458, obviously.

    Massively Unpleasant? Yes I agree :D
     
  10. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    The OP idea sounds nice, but since people can't even find a type of seat that suits the majority of people I doubt we'll ever all agree about a whole unit!

    It does seem odd to me that the 444 is seen as such a good unit (always mentioned in threads about "ideal units") when there were only ever 45 of them built. That maybe says more about how poor other units are? Dunno
     
  11. asylumxl

    asylumxl Established Member

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    Gangways are useful for more than just passengers. It also means should the driver need to change ends for any reason when not in a station he or she can just walk through the train rather than having to go through the motions of getting the adjacent lines blocked.

    Just the other day I heard an FCC driver saying how thankful he was he was driving an 8 car 377 when, for whatever reason, he had to change ends and reverse the train back to the previous station. So obviously some drivers appreciate gangways.
     
  12. MK Tom

    MK Tom Established Member

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    From a passenger's point of view I'd definitely say the finest unit I've travelled on is the class 442. It has the unique comfort and smoothness of the mark 3 with the efficiency of a multiple unit. I am also a fan of gangways but I get the point about driver visibility. What was the driver's view like on a CEP/CIG/VEP? For that matter, what is it like on the 380s?
     
  13. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    An issue that's been highlighted in the Chiltern 172 thread is that gangwayed MUs are harder to see out of - and there are issues with facilities like buffet cars having to be duplicated.

    Well surely the answer is a MU that can be extended/shortened 'on the fly' in depots in a matter of minutes e.g. unit pulls into depot, uncouples its DMS, moves forward into a loop, shunter couples a centre car to the rake, DMS re-couples and drives back out again. The advantage here is units can be extended or lengthened to coincide with peak times/events, so two carriage units aren't packed to the rafters and longer trains aren't carrying around fresh air outside of the peak.

    Big advantage though - no gangways.
     
  14. WestCoast

    WestCoast Established Member

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    Gangways are also beneficial from a revenue/safety point of view, since one guard/RPI can move throughout the train easily during the journey.

    However, it does also depend upon whether the units will be joined together often. In some cases, it's unnecessary.
     
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    In theory the same could happen to HST/ Pendolini rakes that don't need anything like that amount of First Class coaches at the weekend, but it never happens
     
  16. ACE1888

    ACE1888 Member

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    Perfect Unit?
    Class 121 in BR Blue, in one's humble opinion;)
     
  17. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    A unit would have to return to a depot for reforming in the manner you describe which adds additional ECS moves to the schedule and reduces the number of services it could be running in the meantime. Gangwayed units allow trains to be easily reformed in a platform without having to run somewhere with pilot locomotives and run round facilities.
     
  18. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    How about providing a door to every seating bay :idea:
     
  19. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Unfortunately that would likely have draught issues these days, and imagine having that many DDA compatible plug doors.
     
  20. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I know - I just couldn't resist :D
     
  21. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    really, i suppose the main advantages of a multiple unit vis-a-vis a loco-hauled push-pull set is efficiency in use of space (and that's only really important on commuter trains that use the full length of platforms, in most places you've got loads of room, particularly where 4 coach trains are used where once 9 or 10 coach ones were), and, with motors distributed through the train, redundancy of equipment (if one engine conks out, you've got 3 or 4 more). Therefore, I think the best solution for long distance work would be for a power unit at one end, a driving trailer at the other, and the ability to add or subtract as many coaches as you need by just unhooking the motive power unit and adding more as required (you could even do this in service, without needing to retire to a depot). The motive power unit could either include passenger accommodation, like an SR DEMU, or just accommodate the guard and cycle space, like HST Power cars.
    In fact, that would be just about ideal, really; an HST with a power Car at one end and a driving trailer at the other end; with modern engines, you probably wouldn't need to worry too much about having a backup power unit. You don't feel that you need to have two engines in a car in case one breaks down, after all, do you.
     
  22. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Based on popular opinion, the perfect unit should have:

    • a fixed formation with the potential to add more coaches for busy periods, usually between 2 and 12 coaches in length
    • 200+ seats per carriage with plenty of leg room plus wheelchair and luggage spaces
    • All seats having a window and table with additional 'Airline' style seats
    • Individual seats for people travelling on their own and seats together for those traveling in groups
    • Doors at each end of the carriage to give an intercity feel with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 distance for ease of alighting/boarding
    • Bright passenger displays that are not intrusive or distracting
    • Frequent and accurate announcements before and after each stop that do not cause annoyance to anyone
    • Quiet, economical, enviromentally friendly, vibration free engines with plenty of grunt that are useful both under the wires and along branch lines, but which are neither underfloor nor taking up valuable space in a vehicle
    • Silky smooth ride quality
    • Tilt capacity for higher speeds with full width bodies to feel less claustrophobic
    • Full width cab fronts with end gangways between units and asthetically pleasing looks
    • Air conditioning and opening windows that are sealed
    • Thermostats at each seat to provide ideal heating

    I think that would work well.:roll::lol:
     
  23. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    Well there is no 'perfect' unit for everything is there? It's horses for courses, a 333 for instance is one of the best post-privatisation units, but I wouldn't like to do London - Glasgow on one; in the same way it wouldn't be ideal to have Javelins running on the Stourbridge Town branch.
     
  24. WestCoast

    WestCoast Established Member

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    No there isn't, you're absolutely right.

    You need a good local unit, a good InterRegional unit and a good InterCity unit (or stock).
     
  25. dubscottie

    dubscottie Member

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    There is a perfect Unit.. The Irish 22000 class!

    Thats what you get when the Builders give you what you ask for and not tell you what you can have (in the case of Bombardier)
     
  26. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    The 22s are pretty good as railcars go, proper catering facilities would be nice, but a sound investment in the future of the IÉ network indeed.
     
  27. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    As I said in another thread the best regional DMU I've ever been on is The Renfe Media Distancia R-599. It's like someone got a Class 175 and then said how can we make a better train than this and then implemented every idea given.

    http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...=renfe+Media+Distancia+R-599&hl=en&prmd=imvns

    http://www.renfe.com/EN/empresa/comunicacion/productos_trenes/md_599.html

    What really stands out about those units over our DMUs is how quiet they are and how well they can accelerate on steep track, it puts our 185s to shame.

    The only disadvantages are that while most seats have generous leg room, the table seats were left a bit short. Also they were designed to have vending machines for on board refreshments so they may not work that well with a trolley going up and down the train.

    If only looking at UK units I'd say the best DMU is the 170 but it needs a few improvements:
    1. Interior doors between seating areas and external doors.
    2. Longer trains as the 2 car variant doesn't provide that much capacity.
    3. Faster acceleration.
     
  28. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    A 158, with more soundproofing, Capacity to work off a pantograph. Larger end doors to allow faster disembarkation at terminus stations, Only one toilet instead of two. Maybe smaller pillars on the windows for more viewing space, (the only good thing about a pacer). Maybe a vending machine? If it has sensible prices?
     
  29. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Only one toilet is an advantage? :-/
     
  30. Yew

    Yew Established Member

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    Yeah, more room for people :)
     
  31. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Disadvantage if it's a long journey and the only toilet is out-of-order though.
     
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