Permitted Route Query?

[leacarl]

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another?

e.g. When the shortest route by distance sees no service on a Sunday (in that case will the next shortest route that does see a service become a permitted route) or an advertised through train only runs on certain days.

Looking forward to your replies.

hello / generally i find that not many train staff know or care if you are using an official permitted route and as long as you have a valid rail ticket it seems most staff, unless they are and a jobs worth will not be concerned if you are off route as long it is not too far round from the diect route and all reasonable routes it seems are unofficially allowed by most staff, except by the few jobs worths !!!!.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Surely we have easements (for _if_ the TOCs want to make things flexible) example:

Easement 36 Journeys from Stockport to Stalybridge may go via Manchester. Journeys via Stockport and Stalybridge may go via Manchester. These easements apply in both directions.

Hmm, that's very interesting. We had some previous discussions about the permitted routes for some longer cross-country journeys where the shortest route was via the Stalybridge to Stockport line (e.g. here), and I don't think that easement was mentioned.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If that was the intended meaning, then it could simply say "the shortest route used by passenger services" and it would make much better sense. If that is really the intended meaning (I used to believe it was, before I went to a fares workshop last year and there was an interesting discussion about the very issue raised in this thread, so now I'm not so sure!), why are the words "which can be" there?....

Personally I think "the shortest route over which a passenger service operates at some point during the week" would be much clearer if that was the intended meaning. That said, maybe they could have put "The shortest route over which a scheduled service operates on the day of travel", however I also think that is quite limiting. I suppose we could argue the point all day, but I believe there is something that Yorkie brings up every now and then which states that if something in the T&Cs isn't clear, the interpretation most favourable to the [passenger] is used.

Surely we have easements (for _if_ the TOCs want to make things flexible) example:

Easement 36 Journeys from Stockport to Stalybridge may go via Manchester. Journeys via Stockport and Stalybridge may go via Manchester. These easements apply in both directions.

If we were looking at (shortest regular service, or shortest route of a tuesday) this easement would not be needed!

Well, I don't know of any trains from Newcastle or beyond that stop at Drem but there must be some because....

30095 Journeys to North Berwick are allowed via Edinburgh even when doubleing
back through Drem. This easement applies in both directions.

Seeing an easement doesn't mean it isn't a valid route without that easement being there. Take for example....

38 Journeys from or via Manningtree to Southend Victoria, priced and marked
to go via London, may double back through Shenfield. This easement applies
in both directions.

Or....

101 Journeys from St Albans, Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton,
Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick to Manchester and via Manchester made
on tickets routed Not London may go via Bedford. This easement applies in
both directions.

Or even....

30003 Customers travelling from Market Harborough to the north are valid to travel
via Leicester. This easement applies in both directions

All of them are fairly obvious routes to take and almost certainly the shortest by scheduled passenger service.

hello / generally i find that not many train staff know or care if you are using an official permitted route and as long as you have a valid rail ticket it seems most staff, unless they are and a jobs worth will not be concerned if you are off route as long it is not too far round from the diect route and all reasonable routes it seems are unofficially allowed by most staff, except by the few jobs worths !!!!.

In my experience, most guards will allow reasonable routes or show discretion. There may well be some who don't care.

 

[sheff1]

As no one has come back on the Pollokshaws - Queen St routing, I assume my reasoning has been conceded. On the same basis, tickets from at least some (e.g. Slateford) of the stations flagged by the OP are valid to Queen St via Haymarket and Falkirk as the mileage is less than going via Shotts, Glasgow Central and Partick.

If anyone is really interested they could calculate the mileage from each flagged station to work out where the changeover from valid to not valid occurs.

 

[John @ home]

As no one has come back on the Pollokshaws - Queen St routing, I assume my reasoning has been conceded.

I agree with you that the Pollokshaws - Queen St route you quote is a Permitted Route because it's the shortest route. But I don't agree that silence from others means they have conceded the argument. Many contributors have busy lives and can't always be on the forum.

tickets from at least some (e.g. Slateford) of the stations flagged by the OP are valid to Queen St via Haymarket and Falkirk as the mileage is less than going via Shotts, Glasgow Central and Partick.

Slateford - Glasgow Queen St via Haymarket and Airdrie is even shorter.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

We had this debate last year when talking about such things as using a Bradford Yks Stns to New Pudsey ticket from Bradford Forster Square via Leeds, or Farnborough Stns to Blackwater from Farnborough Main via Basingstoke and Reading, and the outcome was that tickets are NOT valid to any station in a fares group. I quote the response from ATOC:

The Fares Group Stations are in place to simplify the range of prices that the industry maintains. The Routeing Guide details the route availability between each origin and destination. In some cases, it is possible to travel out from one member of the Fares Group and back to another but for many short distance journeys, this is often not possible, particularly where the group members are on different lines of route. Short distance travel from Farnborough Main/North would be a good example of this.



The grouping of stations is standard industry practice, and the example of travel between Bradford to Pontefract Stns is akin to travel from London Stations/Terminals: just because it states London Terminals does not mean customers can travel from ANY of the London Stations to any particular destination.



With regard to travel between Bradford and New Pudsey, the only valid rail route for your £1.20 ticket is to go from Bradford Interchange. Should a customer wish to travel from Bradford Forster Square with the “Bradford Yk Stations” ticket then they would be required to walk from Bradford Forster Square to Bradford Interchange (from whence they commence their journey by train).



With regard to your other example, if SWT were to allow use of a ticket between Farnborough Stns and Blackwater to be used from Farnborough Main via Basingstoke/Reading or Woking/Guildford, it would have to build this wider availability into the prices it charges, which would not be popular with customers who simply want to travel on the direct train from Farnborough North (as anyone really making this journey would do). As most tickets can be used for break of journey, SWT would have to ensure that the fare from Farnborough to Blackwater did not undercut the most expensive of the fares for journeys between intermediate points – this is particularly difficult when FGW price Farnborough - Blackwater and SWT price many of the journeys that could be deemed intermediate if the wider availability via Basingstoke/Guildford were conceded.

 

[spasmj]

We had this debate last year when talking about such things as using a Bradford Yks Stns to New Pudsey ticket from Bradford Forster Square via Leeds, or Farnborough Stns to Blackwater from Farnborough Main via Basingstoke and Reading, and the outcome was that tickets are NOT valid to any station in a fares group. I quote the response from ATOC:

You conveniently left out the final paragraph of that letter which contradicts what is said above. To let others make up their own minds, here it is in full :

Dear Mr XXXX



Thank you for your email.



The Fares Group Stations are in place to simplify the range of prices that the industry maintains. The Routeing Guide details the route availability between each origin and destination. In some cases, it is possible to travel out from one member of the Fares Group and back to another but for many short distance journeys, this is often not possible, particularly where the group members are on different lines of route. Short distance travel from Farnborough Main/North would be a good example of this.



The grouping of stations is standard industry practice, and the example of travel from Bradford is akin to travel from London Stations/Terminals: just because it states London Terminals does not mean customers can travel from ANY of the London Stations to any particular destination.



With regard to travel between Bradford and New Pudsey, the only valid rail route for your £1.20 ticket is to go from Bradford Interchange. Should a customer wish to travel from Bradford Forster Square with the “Bradford Yk Stations” ticket then they would be required to walk from Bradford Forster Square to Bradford Interchange (from whence they commence their journey by train).



With regard to your other example, if SWT were to allow use of a ticket between Farnborough Stns and Blackwater to be used from Farnborough Main via Basingstoke/Reading or Woking/Guildford, it would have to build this wider availability into the prices it charges, which would not be popular with customers who simply want to travel on the direct train from Farnborough North (as anyone really making this journey would do). As most tickets can be used for break of journey, SWT would have to ensure that the fare from Farnborough to Blackwater did not undercut the most expensive of the fares for journeys between intermediate points – this is particularly difficult when FGW price Farnborough - Blackwater and SWT price many of the journeys that could be deemed intermediate if the wider availability via Basingstoke/Guildford were conceded.



To conclude, customers are able to use any permitted route from or to a particular station location but must check to ensure that there are no easements in place that forbid a particular journey. To calculate route permissions the user must specify a particular station location - the Routeing Guide does not recognise Fares Groups which are used solely to simplify the range of prices we maintain.



Kind regards,



John Horncastle

Customer Relations Manager

ATOC

The outcome of the Bradford Stations fares group 'issue' was that a specific easement was created to prevent journeys going the long way around (via Leeds). See easement 700143.

 

[34D]

As no one has come back on the Pollokshaws - Queen St routing, I assume my reasoning has been conceded.

Not at all - its a complicated issue and I suspect a few people would be reluctant to attempt an answer either way.

I do note though that a couple of places have easements prohibiting travel to one station from going via the other - example:

Easement 31 Journeys to Yeovil Pen Mill may not go via Yeovil Junction and journeys to Yeovil Junction may not go via Yeovil Pen Mill. This prohibition applies in both directions.

Got to page 11 and eyes going blurry - is there anything else similar? Couldn't see one for Farnborough.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

You conveniently left out the final paragraph of that letter which contradicts what is said above. To let others make up their own minds, here it is in full :



The outcome of the Bradford Stations fares group 'issue' was that a specific easement was created to prevent journeys going the long way around (via Leeds). See easement 700143.

My apologies, I copied it from the original email I received, and having re looked at it, the bottom paragraph was onto the next screen.

That doesn't however, change the original principle that you can't choose whichever station you fancy from a fares group. I said in the original post "This actually doesn't fully answer the original question or problem clearly, as for example the last "conclusion" paragraph actually means you could follow some of the logic outlined previously, and select Bradford Forster Square as your station location (thereby not recognising fares groups) and travel via Leeds. ", and whilst I still believe that the final paragraph is badly worded and does sort of imply that it may be possible, I believed then - and still believe now - that has only come across due to some bad wording, and is not intended.

Not at all - its a complicated issue and I suspect a few people would be reluctant to attempt an answer either way.

I do note though that a couple of places have easements prohibiting travel to one station from going via the other - example:

Easement 31 Journeys to Yeovil Pen Mill may not go via Yeovil Junction and journeys to Yeovil Junction may not go via Yeovil Pen Mill. This prohibition applies in both directions.

Got to page 11 and eyes going blurry - is there anything else similar? Couldn't see one for Farnborough.

As has been discussed many times on this forum, various people, myself included, think that lots of the easements are fairly irrelevant to what is permitted and not permitted, but are there to force the journey planners to stop offering journeys that are invalid. The Bradford one is one of those examples in my opinion.

No, I still assert that such long winded journeys round the houses are not permitted.

 

[sheff1]

With Bradford, the destination/origin shown on the ticket is Bradford Stations which could be interpreted as you say. But in Glasgow it is shown as Central/Queen St so is more clearly specified. I fail to see how you can be prevented from travelling by train to the destination shown on your train ticket.

I am also smiling at the thought, raised by johnb, of the thousands of people travelling illegally every day between Waterloo and Vauxhall

 

[170401]

Thanks for your answers. The advertised through train one was a bit easy. Sunday services are a bit of a problem though. The journey I had in mind was Curriehill (CUH) to Glasgow Cen/Qst (0433).

.

Going purely by the national rail journey planner it would appear via HYM/EDB is not a permitted route for a through ticket at any time. In every enquiry I entered it showed seperate fares for each leg for weekdays and Sundays.