Permitted Route Query?

[reb0118]

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another?

e.g. When the shortest route by distance sees no service on a Sunday (in that case will the next shortest route that does see a service become a permitted route) or an advertised through train only runs on certain days.

Looking forward to your replies.

 

[John @ home]

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another? ... an advertised through train only runs on certain days.

The easy part to answer is that journey on a through train can only take place when a through train runs by travelling on that through train. For example, a Selby - Wakefield route Any Permitted ticket is valid via Bradford and Huddersfield only on a through train. Through trains run Monday - Saturday only. Therefore a Selby - Wakefield route Any Permitted ticket is not valid via Bradford and Huddersfield on a Sunday.

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another? e.g. When the shortest route by distance sees no service on a Sunday.

I don't think there is a single answer of either yes or no to this one, and the permitted route(s) would need to be calculated for any particular combination of origin and destination you had in mind.

 

[34D]

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another?

e.g. When the shortest route by distance sees no service on a Sunday (in that case will the next shortest route that does see a service become a permitted route) or an advertised through train only runs on certain days.

Looking forward to your replies.

Purely an opinion, but surely (rather than other routes becoming valid on a sunday) it is simply the case that there are no services that day?

For example the last Huddersfield-Sheffield (midweek) is 22:18. If that train is missed, then I don't think that the 23:00 hud-man pic and 00:15 Man pic-shf can be used on the grounds that they form the shortest route at 11pm.

To save anyone checking, there isn't a hud-lds-shf after the 22:18 direct that has more than 2 minutes on Leeds station. I haven't checked routeing here, but I am assuming that hud-shf isn't valid via Manchester

 

[Welshman]

I assume when the EC main line is blocked north of Newcastle and HSTs are being diverted via the Tyne Valley and Carlisle to Edinburgh, then all Newcastle-Edinburgh tickets are valid that way.
But I wouldn't try it when the EC main line is open throughout!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Simple answer I think has to be yes, when we are talking about the shortest route and direct trains. Engineering works and disruption to services can also mean a TOC allows another route to be valid for the duration of the works/disruption.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can a permitted route be valid one day & not another?

e.g. When the shortest route by distance sees no service on a Sunday (in that case will the next shortest route that does see a service become a permitted route) or an advertised through train only runs on certain days.

Looking forward to your replies.

Definitely can - if you look at the explanation of easement coding in this recent post, you'll find they can be tweaked to be valid only on particular days of the week and/or times of day :

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=949362&postcount=11

 

[First class]

Here's an easy example:

Ormskirk-Preston SDS £5.80, only valid via the branch line (via Rufford). Line only runs Monday-Saturday. No Sunday service.

On a Sunday, the only way to get to Preston would be via a non-permitted route via Liverpool and Wigan. No easements are in place, it is certainly not the shortest route as shown in the NRT. Much higher fares apply Liverpool-Preston.

Therefore anyone travelling Ormskirk-Preston via Liverpool (on a Sunday) would have to buy:

Ormskirk-Liverpool £5.55
Liverpool-Preston £11.20

Similarly, Ellesmere Port to Helsby, £2.65 SDS. No Sunday service.

Only route would be Ellesmere Port-Hooton-Chester-Helsby which definitely is not permitted and certainly not the shortest route. Again, no easements available.

To get from ELP-HSB, you would need:
Ellesmere Port - Chester £3.40
Chester - Helsby £4.20

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Note what the NRCoC says (my bold):

....

13. The route you are entitled to take

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

....

What is the shortest route by scheduled passenger services from Ormskirk to Preston on a Sunday?

What is the shortest route by scheduled passenger services from Ellesmere Port to Helsby on a Sunday?

 

[First class]

Note what the NRCoC says (my bold):



What is the shortest route by scheduled passenger services from Ormskirk to Preston on a Sunday?

What is the shortest route by scheduled passenger services from Ellesmere Port to Helsby on a Sunday?

National Rail calculate it the same way as I did, 2 x separate tickets.

Other sites won't return any fares.

JourneyPlanner also does the same, puts a red cross by the fare.


(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or

Of a Sunday, trains do not take the shortest route so (ii) cannot apply.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If there are no trains, how can it be "the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"?

There have been many occasions on here where journey planners (including NRES) have been proven to be wrong.

 

[First class]

If there are no trains, how can it be "the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"?

There have been many occasions on here where journey planners (including NRES) have been proven to be wrong.

That isn't what it says though.

Split it into two:

trains which take the shortest route AND

which can be used by scheduled
passenger services;

This appears just to confirm that the shortest NRT mileage route is always a permitted route, assuming a passenger service can use it.

I certainly do not believe it is designed or supposed to imply that you can travel massively off-route because the timetable is not convenient for the customer.

 

[reb0118]

Thanks for your answers. The advertised through train one was a bit easy. Sunday services are a bit of a problem though. The journey I had in mind was Curriehill (CUH) to Glasgow Cen/Qst (0433).

For those of you not familiar with the route CUH lies on the Edinburgh (EDB) to Glasgow Central (GLC) via Shotts (SHS) line. There is a direct hourly stopping service for most of the day (much less frequent in the evenings) on Monday to Saturdays. On Sundays there are trains every two hours all stops between EDB & West Calder (WCL) only i.e. no through trains between CUH & GLC.

The stations heading westwards from EDB are as follows:-

Haymarket (HYM)*; Slateford (SLA); Kingsknowe (KGE); Wester Hailes (WTA); CUH; Kirknewton (KKN); Livingston South (LVG); & WCL. No Sunday service west of WCL. The fares from these stations to Glasgow are considerably cheaper than the equivalent fare from EDB (*HYM is the same however). The destination shown on the ticket is Glasgow Cen/Qst and the route is any permitted. In all cases the distances from these stations via HYM & FKK to GLQ are more than 3 miles from the direct route to GLC. There are no advertised through trains from these stations to GLQ.

An increasing number of passengers are now travelling from the above stations to Glasgow Queen Street (GLQ) via HYM & Falkirk High (FKK) not only on Sundays but during the week also. I have been receiving conflicting information re the validity of these journeys from various sources at work but know the routing guide experts on the forum will get to the bottom of it.

I have no personal objection allowing passengers to travel the longer route on a Sunday as in my view they have been inconvenienced enough by being forced to travel the long way round so to speak. Travelling on a weekday is a different matter however.

Passengers state many reasons for the via HYM & FKK route being valid including i) It states any permitted on the ticket so this route must be permitted. ii) It states Glasgow Cen/Qst on the ticket and I'm travelling to GLQ so it must be valid. iii) This route offers me a faster journey. iv) This route is valid on a Sunday why is is not valid today? v) You're the first person to tell me this route is not valid (even though I spoke to them last week & let them off with a friendly warning). &c., &c..

Once again thanks for your replies.

 

[Eagle]

i) It states any permitted on the ticket so this route must be permitted. ii) It states Glasgow Cen/Qst on the ticket and I'm travelling to GLQ so it must be valid. iii) This route offers me a faster journey. iv) This route is valid on a Sunday why is is not valid today? v) You're the first person to tell me this route is not valid (even though I spoke to them last week & let them off with a friendly warning). &c., &c..

i) That's not what Any permitted means. It means "any permitted route is valid" (i.e. permitted by the RG), not "any route is permitted".

ii) All tickets to Glasgow say Ctl/QSt, even ones like Pollokshaws to Glasgow (and there's no way you could go to Queen Street validly with that ticket).

iii) Speed is not a factor in routeing.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That isn't what it says though.....

Really?

....

13. The route you are entitled to take

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

....

Looks like it says that to me.

Split it into two:

trains which take the shortest route AND

which can be used by scheduled
passenger services;...

That doesn't even make sense and where is the "AND" in the NRCoC?

Tell you what, I'll print it again as it is printed in the NRCoC.

....

(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or

....

I still don't see the "AND" in there, maybe you could point it out for me?

....This appears just to confirm that the shortest NRT mileage route is always a permitted route, assuming a passenger service can use it.

I certainly do not believe it is designed or supposed to imply that you can travel massively off-route because the timetable is not convenient for the customer.

Erm....it's not like there is a one hour gap or someone has just missed a train or something like that, we are talking about more than 24 hours without a train. You are saying that if a passenger wants to travel on that day of the week they have to pay more because the TOC isn't running a service. I'm sure the TOCs would love to hear that people think that is fair.

It's like saying a passenger holding a single ticket from Wigan to Patricroft has only two opportunities to travel each day (Monday-Saturday) with twelve hours between them, but passengers holding tickets from Patricroft to Wigan can use the hourly service via Manchester (you should check NRES for this one as it says you can't go from Patricroft to Wigan on one ticket AT ANY TIME!!!).

 

[reb0118]

i) That's not what Any permitted means. It means "any permitted route is valid" (i.e. permitted by the RG), not "any route is permitted".

ii) All tickets to Glasgow say Ctl/QSt, even ones like Pillocks to Glasgow (and there's no way you could go to Queen Street validly with that ticket).

iii) Speed is not a factor in routeing.

Correct in all three.

We are all industry insiders, rail travel enthusiasts, or indeed both as in my case and I suppose in a sense these questions come as second nature to us. However put yourself in the position of Joe Public - I don't think we as an industry make things simple for them. Some passengers genuinely believe the reasons they have given above - I can tell with their body language and reactions when they are informed they are travelling off route.

Now in my opinion we could sort some of these issues out quite easily. Take the three examples above;-

i)Where there is a significant demand for travel via different routes use geographic route indicators on the ticket. In this example we could use DIRECT or NOT VIA HAYMARKET for the current shortest permitted route and introduce an ANY PERMITTED fare set at similar or slightly more expensive than the EDB -GLQ fare to cover travel via FKK or indeed CRS.

ii) The destination for Glasgow should be Glasgow Central for all flows that can only go to Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street for all flows that can only go to Glasgow Queen Street.

OR

Much simply just do away with that destination altogether and replace with Glasgow Stations

iii) Introduce a continental style supplement for faster trains. (Not one of my better ideas )

 

[Eagle]

Much simply just do away with that destination altogether and replace with Glasgow Stations

They used to say that, but people apparently took that to include Charing Cross and Argyle Street and Exhibition Centre and so on, which wasn't the intention.

Same reason why it's London Terminals rather than London Stations.

 

[reb0118]

They used to say that, but people apparently took that to include Charing Cross and Argyle Street and Exhibition Centre and so on, which wasn't the intention.

Same reason why it's London Terminals rather than London Stations.

They still do with Cen/Qst. The new barriers will weed them out. To be honest if the fare is the same I don't see the major problem. In Germany long distance tickets allow local transport in the city areas for two days on S-Bahn

 

[Scotty]

There are no trains on Sundays directly between Lincoln and Sleaford.

Lincoln - Newark - Grantham - Sleaford is not a permitted route, but would this be allowed on a Sunday?

 

[Eagle]

There are no trains on Sundays directly between Lincoln and Sleaford.

Lincoln - Newark - Grantham - Sleaford is not a permitted route, but would this be allowed on a Sunday?

Trying to search for Lincoln–Sleaford tickets on a Sunday on NRE, the first departure it gives is 07.05 Monday morning :roll:

If you click on earlier departures, it breaks the website.

 

[sheff1]

All tickets to Glasgow say Ctl/QSt, even ones like Pollokshaws to Glasgow (and there's no way you could go to Queen Street validly with that ticket).

Pollokshaws - Central - Partick - Queen St is vaild under the shortest route rule.

 

[Eagle]

Pollokshaws - Central - Partick - Queen St is vaild under the shortest route rule.

It's invalid because your journey has ended the moment you reach Central.

 

[sheff1]

It's invalid because your journey has ended the moment you reach Central.

If you are travelling to Queen St it hasn't.

 

[Eagle]

If you are travelling to Queen St it hasn't.

But according to your ticket you are travelling to Glasgow Ctl/QSt, not Glasgow Queen St.

 

[sheff1]

But according to your ticket you are travelling to Glasgow Ctl/QSt, not Glasgow Queen St.

I board the train at Pollokshaws West. I ask for a ticket to Queen St. I am sold a ticket which shows Ctl/Qst (i.e Central or Queen St). Of course I can travel to my stated destination of Queen St and to do so I must travel via Partick.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . Of course I can travel to my stated destination of Queen St and to do so I must travel via Partick.

Must?
Where's the compulsion?
If you are lucky enough to be able-bodied, you could get there quicker by walking from Central to QS, much much quicker.
But as you will clearly know this already, what's your point ?

 

[sheff1]

Must?
Where's the compulsion?
If you are lucky enough to be able-bodied, you could get there quicker by walking from Central to QS, much much quicker.
But as you will clearly know this already, what's your point ?

Yes I could walk from Central. I could walk from Pollokshaws if I wanted, but it is raining (not uncommon in Glasgow ) and I am meeting someone in the Wetherspoons next to Queen St station. I do not wish to arrive dripping wet, so I decide to travel by train.

NRCoC Condition 13 tells me:

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold Pollokshaws and Queen St are shown
in:
(i) a through train; there aren't any
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services;this means I must travel via Partick, all other routes being further

 

[34D]

There are no trains on Sundays directly between Lincoln and Sleaford.

Lincoln - Newark - Grantham - Sleaford is not a permitted route, but would this be allowed on a Sunday?

I don't think so - the railway can't be expected to provide service 24/7. Those fares apply when trains run, and not when they aren't scheduled to run. If you need to make the journey on a sunday you need valid tickets.

Its like turning up at Denton on a sunday and expecting either a taxi, a special train, or a hotel room until the Friday.

Re NRCOC clause 13a ii. Quote:

"The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"

Note that is is "the shortest route which CAN be used by scheduled passenger services", not "the shortest route WHICH IS used by scheduled passenger services".

One interpretation could be get your quail out, ignore the track that isn't passenger rated (watch those FPL's) and that is your shortest route, whether or not it is actually used by passenger trains or not.

I don't think that is what is intended, so we return to "shortest route actually used by passenger services". No words regular/frequent/daily. If the shortest route is only used once a day then (unless other options are permitted by the RG) this is what you have

 

[johnb]

It's invalid because your journey has ended the moment you reach Central.

London Bridge and Vauxhall are both in the London Terminals group. If your theory were correct, and the ticket dies when you reach the first possible destination station, then literally everyone travelling to Cannon Street or Waterloo mainline would be breaking the rules.

Oddly enough, they aren't.

 

[Paul Kelly]

"The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"

Note that is is "the shortest route which CAN be used by scheduled passenger services", not "the shortest route WHICH IS used by scheduled passenger services".

One interpretation could be get your quail out, ignore the track that isn't passenger rated (watch those FPL's) and that is your shortest route, whether or not it is actually used by passenger trains or not.

Interesting interpretation! The words "which can be" must have some intended meaning though. I believe the interpretation of most people on here is that they refer to the ability of the passenger to use the route (which means there must be trains running on it), rather than the ability of trains to use the route.

I don't think that is what is intended, so we return to "shortest route actually used by passenger services". No words regular/frequent/daily. If the shortest route is only used once a day then (unless other options are permitted by the RG) this is what you have

If that was the intended meaning, then it could simply say "the shortest route used by passenger services" and it would make much better sense. If that is really the intended meaning (I used to believe it was, before I went to a fares workshop last year and there was an interesting discussion about the very issue raised in this thread, so now I'm not so sure!), why are the words "which can be" there?

My opinion there is that they're some kind of ambiguous clarifier/kludge to allow flexibility for lines where there's only a parliamentary service.

 

[34D]

My opinion there is that they're some kind of ambiguous clarifier/kludge to allow flexibility for lines where there's only a parliamentary service.

Surely we have easements (for _if_ the TOCs want to make things flexible) example:

Easement 36 Journeys from Stockport to Stalybridge may go via Manchester. Journeys via Stockport and Stalybridge may go via Manchester. These easements apply in both directions.

If we were looking at (shortest regular service, or shortest route of a tuesday) this easement would not be needed!