Persistent railway myths, misunderstandings etc.

[MotCO]

Everything British Rail did was amazing and brilliant, and they never, ever got anything wrong. Their trains were always cheap, always on time, and the staff were all fantastic. They never went on strike, and you could travel from Land's End to John O'Groats and still have change from tuppence ha'penny. In a Pullman car.

There - fixed it for you !

 

[Kite159]

Stripping Northern of their franchise will fix the problems it has faced, often peddled by Tim Farron. Northern IS the franchise, run by Arriva. Also a lot of the problems were by unrealistic demands set by the DfT.

Nationalising will solve all when the DfT have more say over railways than BR did, notably franchise requirements and fares. Also Network Rail.

Trains in 'Europe' run on rainbows and fairy dust. In France the TGV network is good but the rest of the network has a poor level of service in comparison, with some lines having 3 services a day. Customer service is actually quite good here in the event of delays (my experience with DB has been quite poor).

Driving is cheaper: if the choice is £60 petrol or £90 ticket, it works out the same if you factor in taking the car servicing. They don't break down at annoying times, they require servicing if you drive them long distances.

And isn't there some lines in rural France which are served only by replacement buses?

 

[Esker-pades]

And isn't there some lines in rural France which are served only by replacement buses?

Quite a few. The "Barlaston/Wedgwood" solution is used a lot more in France than it is here.
La Roche-en-Brenil, Croix-d'Hins, most of the Somain to Halluin Line, St-Louis-les-Aygalades, St-Germain – St-Remy, Holtzheim, Accolay, Blesme – Haussignmont, Bourth, Hasenrain (Mulhouse), Villers-sur-There, Manlay, St-Bres – Mudaison, Steenbecque, Chevremont, Eygurande – Merlines,
St-Martin-Bellevue and Thiel-sur-Acolin are the ones I have on my list (all with annual patronages below 1000). Some of them may be closed entirely (a combination of my ability to find accurate sources and my terrible French doesn't help).

 

[Tractor2018]

Trains in 'Europe' run on rainbows and fairy dust.

I liked that.

 

[BigCj34]

car is far far cheaper over any distance if there are more than the driver in it. What makes it expensive is silly parking charges at your destination.

I did neglect to mention that. Two or more people it may well be cheaper to drive, paying full fare with just one person it can sometimes be cheaper to drive. Parking charges are justified if it curbs congestion.

 

[Iskra]

To be fair, 80% of UK rail journeys begin and/or end in London.

There are lots of reasons for that. But, I think it is also a byproduct of our London focused network. The fast lines are to London, so you end up going to London to make journeys that don't involve London.

E.g Leeds to Penzance. You have a choice of via Birmingham or London. Most people travelling via London would buy a ticket from Leeds to London and a ticket from London to Penzance, which masks the fact that the real destination isn't London.

Dont know if this has been covered yet...

That all staff know the entire railway timetable off the top of their heads, not just train times but platforms as well...

I used to work on a mainline station. It didn't take me long to learn the timetable, platforms, learn when the ideal time for a PNB was, learn which services were the most likely to be cancelled or late and learn the more common 'how do I get to X' questions. I don't think it's unreasonable for a staff member to know the core timetable at the station they are based at (apart from maybe at the biggest stations), and you'd think that they should have some basic knowledge of railway geography too.

If they don't know any information, then what they do need to know is the correct person (or source of information) to direct the enquirer to, politely. Too many times you see or hear blunt 'not my job' rebuttals followed by shrugging of the shoulders and walking off. That just isn't good enough really, is it?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I used to work on a mainline station. It didn't take me long to learn the timetable, platforms, learn when the ideal time for a PNB was, learn which services were the most likely to be cancelled or late and learn the more common 'how do I get to X' questions. I don't think it's unreasonable for a staff member to know the core timetable at the station they are based at (apart from maybe at the biggest stations), and you'd think that they should have some basic knowledge of railway geography too.

I think it's unfair to expect any member of staff to know ALL the timetable, especially where there are many different services/ irregular stopping patterns... what is unforgivable is any member of staff that doesn't walk around with at least the "pocket guide" timetables for that stn!

 

[_toommm_]

I think it's unfair to expect any member of staff to know ALL the timetable, especially where there are many different services/ irregular stopping patterns... what is unforgivable is any member of staff that doesn't walk around with at least the "pocket guide" timetables for that stn!

At least the core frequencies for services e.g Piccadilly: 2tph Birmingham NS, 1tp2h Glasgow etc.

 

[Iskra]

I think it's unfair to expect any member of staff to know ALL the timetable, especially where there are many different services/ irregular stopping patterns... what is unforgivable is any member of staff that doesn't walk around with at least the "pocket guide" timetables for that stn!

Yes, I think we are in agreement. Remember that the core service is usually the same every hour, so it doesn't take long at all to get used to the pattern!

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, I think we are in agreement. Remember that the core service is usually the same every hour, so it doesn't take long at all to get used to the pattern!

But there will always be that one service which does something slightly different.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Is it a myth that any on duty bus driver has an automatic right of access to the rail stn toilets?

 

[Iskra]

But there will always be that one service which does something slightly different.

Those are usually at the extremities of the day. Of course, if you aren't sure you can say 'check the screens on the platform,' or 'I don't know, but person x can tell you...'

 

[142Pilot]

I've enough to think about where my own train is, never mind every other train. Then the what train is going X. When two train go there but in different directions. This aligned with the minimum walking time means unless I'm stood near a screen then I am of non-use to the passenger.

Especially when the signaller is playing platform bingo.

 

[matacaster]

That a driver can steer his train out of the way to avoid a disaster.

(this impression is usually perpetrated by the tabloids to be fair to the general public)

 

[Ken H]

That a driver can steer his train out of the way to avoid a disaster.

(this impression is usually perpetrated by the tabloids to be fair to the general public)

Branson said that after the Grayrigg crash

 

[Cowley]

Branson said that after the Grayrigg crash

Didn’t he say that he bravely stayed at his controls?
Not really sure where else he could’ve gone at that point..?

 

[AndrewE]

Branson said that after the Grayrigg crash

He also said that if a train was late then a Virgin driver would regain time ( I think he believed that, like an airline, a railway company can choose a cruising speed to balance arrival time against fuel consumption, so they can catch up by burning a bit more fuel!) I suspect that someone took him aside afterwards and told him some of the facts of (railway) life to stop him making a fool of himself again.

 

[InterCity:125]

How about; every European railway network is good except ours (and the french when they have strikes)

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Persistent myths amongst (at least certain sections of) the enthusiast fraternity:

1. Photographing preserved trains means you are directly contributing to their continued existence and have an automatic right to choose what colour they should be painted*

2. That any current piece of rolling stock which is today regarded as common or uncomfortable** will never, ever be regarded as a historical item at some point in the future.

3. The Somerset & Dorset was as beloved by every single person who was there at the time as it is by those who have only ever seen it safely behind a glass screen on Ivo Peters films and/or in picture books.

4. That no branch lines in the steam era were slow, dirty, damp and drafty, with a rubbish train service and staff who had days when they didn't behave like they were in an Ealing comedy.

5. That any given stretch of disused railway in the UK should be reopened and, look, here are all the economic benefits, it has limitless potential (etc etc)

6. Anyone who doesn't agree with the idea to reopen any stretch of former railway is a (spoken in deprecatory tones) 'tree hugger'.


* Photo charters excepted, I know
** Yes. Pacers.

 

[whhistle]

A persistent myth on this forum is that pressing the door button before it is illuminated is pointless. Certainly on the 150s on the Buxton line if the button is pressed early, even before the train stops, the door opens when the guard operates his switch.

But I'm sure on the trains I frequent, this isn't the case.
I wonder if there's a definitive list somewhere where this works/doesn't work.

 

[BigCj34]

Persistent myths amongst (at least certain sections of) the enthusiast fraternity:

1. Photographing preserved trains means you are directly contributing to their continued existence and have an automatic right to choose what colour they should be painted*

2. That any current piece of rolling stock which is today regarded as common or uncomfortable** will never, ever be regarded as a historical item at some point in the future.

3. The Somerset & Dorset was as beloved by every single person who was there at the time as it is by those who have only ever seen it safely behind a glass screen on Ivo Peters films and/or in picture books.

4. That no branch lines in the steam era were slow, dirty, damp and drafty, with a rubbish train service and staff who had days when they didn't behave like they were in an Ealing comedy.

5. That any given stretch of disused railway in the UK should be reopened and, look, here are all the economic benefits, it has limitless potential (etc etc)

6. Anyone who doesn't agree with the idea to reopen any stretch of former railway is a (spoken in deprecatory tones) 'tree hugger'.


* Photo charters excepted, I know
** Yes. Pacers.

I thought those who advocated railways would be free huggers due their environmental credentials. A railway that is bad for the environment would be highly ironic, and very definitely pointless.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I don't know that this is an unreasonable question to ask - if you knew your journey would take longer and be in less comfortable accommodation, you wouldn't pay as much. So when the coach shows up, many people are going to be annoyed about having paid a rail fare.

This is especially true if you have a free bus pass. A few Sundays ago, having missed a service bus, I decided to splash out on the train instead which was timetabled to leave in five minutes. Only after I had paid for the ticket was I told that there was a replacement bus which was leaving in three quarters of an hour and which would get me home later than waiting for the next free service bus.

 

[dcbwhaley]

But I'm sure on the trains I frequent, this isn't the case.
I wonder if there's a definitive list somewhere where this works/doesn't work.

From an engineering point of view - I am an engineer - it is much simpler to design the system I describe than the mythical one.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I thought those who advocated railways would be free huggers due their environmental credentials. A railway that is bad for the environment would be highly ironic, and very definitely pointless.

All transport systems are bad for the environment. The environment would be best served by everyone staying at home and working by telephone or its modern equivalent. (I am not advocating that by the way)

 

[dcbwhaley]

Didn’t he say that he bravely stayed at his controls?
Not really sure where else he could’ve gone at that point..?

That was just the obligatory platitude. He would have been castigated for not saying it.

One lesson from Grayrigg was that many of the injuries could have been prevented had the passengers been strapped into their seats. Which is why modern trains now have seat ..... oh got that wrong.

 

[PeterC]

But I'm sure on the trains I frequent, this isn't the case.
I wonder if there's a definitive list somewhere where this works/doesn't work.

Pressing the door open button was discussed on another thread some time ago. On some classes you have to press the button after the door is released and on others it will open if the button is already being held down on release. I never remember which class does which.

 

[_toommm_]

But I'm sure on the trains I frequent, this isn't the case.
I wonder if there's a definitive list somewhere where this works/doesn't work.

You can't 'preload' the doors on a 150 - you can hold the button down and it will open when the doors are officially unlocked, as you can with most in service DMUs

 

[DelW]

That atmospheric traction does "make light of gradients". (It may be immune to wheel slip, but there is a hard limit on maximum tractive force and you can't get over that by adding more piston carriages in the way that you can add more locomotives. If they had persisted with the system and got as far as installing it on the banks, within a few years its inability to cope with gradients would have become an insuperable bottleneck on the route, as train weights increased to the point where they could only be got over the banks by splitting them and then waiting for the pipe to be re-evacuated between each portion.)

You could use multiple pipes.

There's a limit to the number that could fit, although more would with the broad gauge.

If the atmospheric system had worked (with a better material for the flap valve), I wonder if it would subsequently have been re-engineered to use compressed air instead of vacuum? With vacuum the maximum force has a theoretical limit of one bar pressure x area of the piston (less in practice), but with compressed air, that one bar could be any value that the valves and pipes could be engineered to withstand.

[O/T completely] I was in the transport museum in Munich recently, and it has a demonstration of the overhead pneumatic tube system that used to be used for coin handling in big shops many years ago. Sadly it wasn't working, but it brought back memories. I think some supermarkets may still use such a system, but it's not visible to customers in the same way[/OT]

 

[Highlandspring]

One lesson from Grayrigg was that many of the injuries could have been prevented had the passengers been strapped into their seats. Which is why modern trains now have seat ..... oh got that wrong.

You’re aware that this was the subject of a major research project from 2005 to 2007 and the data showed that seatbelts are not appropriate on trains and would increase passenger injury? If you have a SPARK log in you can read the reports, or if not here’s the abstract:

This research aimed to identify improvements to seat and table design to minimise injuries in an accident. The research led to the development of an anthropomorphic testing device (ATD - crash test dummy) specifically for the rail environment. The ATD was then used to evaluate the benefits of two-point lap belts (as used in commercial aviation) and three-point, lap and diagonal belts (as used in cars). Accident analysis, sled testing, and computer modelling concluded that neither type of seat belt should be used in rail vehicles. Two-point seat belts would usually increase passenger injuries in a crash, and while three-point seat belts could reduce injury to restrained passengers, they require the strengthening of seat backs which would increase injuries to unrestrained passengers. Seat belts also prevent passengers being thrown clear of structural damage. The investigation suggested that for every life that may have been saved by fitting seat belts eight lives may have been lost due to major structural collapse. Current crashworthy seats, that are designed to absorb energy in accidents, thus reducing injury to passengers, should be retained.

 

[Pigeon]

If the atmospheric system had worked (with a better material for the flap valve), I wonder if it would subsequently have been re-engineered to use compressed air instead of vacuum? With vacuum the maximum force has a theoretical limit of one bar pressure x area of the piston (less in practice), but with compressed air, that one bar could be any value that the valves and pipes could be engineered to withstand.

I doubt that would have got as far as going into service. With the vacuum system, the train sits behind a column of vacuum that decreases in length as the train goes along, so you can (and they did) "precharge" it by evacuating the pipe ahead of the train as slowly as leakage will allow, which means you need less powerful pumping plant (but running it for longer at a time) for the same result. With compressed air it's the other way round, so you'd have to have a big powerful compressor that could supply air as fast as the train's movement created volume for it. This in turn would make it really obvious just how inefficient a method of power transmission it is - the vacuum version was bad enough - and I can't see it then being put to serious use if they didn't have free coal.

[O/T completely] I was in the transport museum in Munich recently, and it has a demonstration of the overhead pneumatic tube system that used to be used for coin handling in big shops many years ago. Sadly it wasn't working, but it brought back memories. I think some supermarkets may still use such a system, but it's not visible to customers in the same way[/OT]

They really don't want people to know about it. I've quite often seen the capsules for it lying around; I suppose they think people won't know what they are. I've occasionally been able to make out where the hatch at the end of the tube is. I've never seen them actually use it. They must wait until there's no-one about, which only happens when they're shut, which makes it kind of pointless having it in the first place.