Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

[Xenophon PCDGS]

TPE wants to pretend to be an inter-city operation, but in reality it's a rather pretentious and not very glorified inter-regional operation.

How would you describe the Manchester and Liverpool services to Scotland if not Inter-City?

 

[DarloRich]

Totally agree, and Rich beat me to it. The only way this will get anywhere in Parliament is for it to go via an MP or possibly the Mayor of Manchester. Even as a Private Members Bill it would fail. It has to go through all the due process of parliamentary machinery and the Secretary of State for Transport (ie his department) needs to be convinced for it to do so, so if the 673 signatories all wrote to their own MPs arguing the case and their MPs then badgered the SoS that would have far more impact. Petitions are a waste of time in any walk of life.

I think the petition remains a waste of time. The election of Johnson and his cracking of the red wall offer, imo, a slightly better chance of the project happening. Still slim, mind, for the reasons of timescale set out above.

 

[Killingworth]

I think the petition remains a waste of time. The election of Johnson and his cracking of the red wall offer, imo, a slightly better chance of the project happening. Still slim, mind, for the reasons of timescale set out above.

Didn't the original petition die months ago due to lack of support? This thread has had just as much impact - maybe an infinitely small amount more!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What are the likely options for Ordsall Lane grade separation?
After looking at the map and satellite view even my pretty ambitious crayons couldn’t see any ways of doing it that weren’t massively disruptive and expensive.

Unfortunately it's inevitable that buildings will have to be moved and yes it may be expensive but it'd be worth it in the long run.

But any suggestions to what line will go over/under which?

An anomalous feature of the area's network is the existence of two routes between Victoria and Salford Crescent, one direct passing the aggregates terminal and the other via Ordsall Lane Jn. Going forward there should be no need to continue with this. As such a remodelling at Ordsall Lane could completely remove any connections to/from the other routes and the tracks from Victoria which pass through Salford Central on the south side of the formation. In other words "all" that is required is the Chat Moss tracks from Victoria to be elevated to pass over the whole Ordsall Lane site and connect with the Chat Moss route proper a little further west using a grade separated junction. The disused freight terminal area would provide some of the space needed meaning the biggest obstacle would be the complete rebuilding of the Oldfield Road (A5066) bridge. However one issue may well be whether such a route shoe-horned into this space would be suitable for continued use by freight trains.

I also note that the most recent report referred to upthread mentions not only the possibility of just such a scheme but also the need to deal with the Slade Lane Jn area in a similar manner. Again there is some under-/disused railway connected land in the area which would assist with this (for those not familiar with the area I'm referring to the site of the Eurostar depot). I have suggested the need for grade separation at both locations many times previously on this forum: perhaps there are planners around who agree with me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I also note that the most recent report referred to upthread mentions not only the possibility of just such a scheme but also the need to deal with the Slade Lane Jn area in a similar manner. Again there is some under-/disused railway connected land in the area which would assist with this (for those not familiar with the area I'm referring to the site of the Eurostar depot).

I am a tad confused here. Is the former Eurostar depot at Longsight the one that used to have a large sign affixed to it until recently stating "Le Eurostar habite ici" now still in use for something in current operational purposes?

 

[CHAPS2034]

Again there is some under-/disused railway connected land in the area which would assist with this (for those not familiar with the area I'm referring to the site of the Eurostar depot).

The old Eurostar depot is now used by TPE and has been for some while to support primarily the Nova 3.

There is also a wheel lathe in that area. That's not to say these things can't be moved but increases the cost and complexity.

 

[Senex]

How would you describe the Manchester and Liverpool services to Scotland if not Inter-City?

I'd describe them as semi-fast / all principal stations — the equivalent of an MML train calling at Luton (and in earlier days at St Albans too), Bedford, etc, or a GW train calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, and Bath on the way to Bristol. And can any service that has regular (not the sort of peak-hour only stops you find on some German IC services) Lockerbie stops be really inter-city?

 

[CHAPS2034]

I'd describe them as semi-fast / all principal stations — the equivalent of an MML train calling at Luton (and in earlier days at St Albans too), Bedford, etc, or a GW train calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, and Bath on the way to Bristol. And can any service that has regular (not the sort of peak-hour only stops you find on some German IC services) Lockerbie stops be really inter-city?

Does it really matter how you describe them?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The old Eurostar depot is now used by TPE and has been for some while to support primarily the Nova 3.

There is also a wheel lathe in that area. That's not to say these things can't be moved but increases the cost and complexity.

In the longer term there's every chance that the Up side facilities at Longsight could also be reduced or vacated. Some additional depot capacity could surely be created at both Edge Hill and Allerton and a HS2 depot for the north west does not have to be at Longsight. As others have said it is almost impossible to produce a step change in capacity without spending serious money. What is so often lacking is both a lack of ambition and political will: public opinion needs to be mobilised to overcome these.

 

[WatcherZero]

Liverpool needs one of its own around these tables, speaking up forcefully for its requirements.

The CHAIR, the person literally in charge of the meeting was the Liverpool representative.

 

[Camden]

The CHAIR, the person literally in charge of the meeting was the Liverpool representative.

I know who the CHAIR is.

 

[CdBrux]

So there has been a NR report and now a TfN report. Do they compliment each other, is one based on the other or are they 2 rather separate things?

 

[Mogster]

From the MEN.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983

Government has long been dodging questions on its broken promise to expand Piccadilly and Oxford Road stations. Northern leaders are now set to tell ministers they have no choice - do it, or we suffer bad services forever
[URL='https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983']

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983[/URL]

 

[Purple Orange]

I'd describe them as semi-fast / all principal stations — the equivalent of an MML train calling at Luton (and in earlier days at St Albans too), Bedford, etc, or a GW train calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, and Bath on the way to Bristol. And can any service that has regular (not the sort of peak-hour only stops you find on some German IC services) Lockerbie stops be really inter-city?

It’s an intercity service.

 

[Andyh82]

From the MEN.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983

Good that the issue is getting mainstream coverage.

The question is what will ministers decide?

To announce this investment, it’ll get a small bit of publicity, will be met by indifference by many members of the public, and will be delivered in 10 years time
Or
Ignore it, instead announce that they are stripping Northern of the franchise. It will get massive publicity, gain massive public support and will be delivered in a few months. But will actually solve nothing

 

[Greybeard33]

One nugget of information from the TfN report, which I do not think was previously in the public domain, is:

The broad price range of Package C in full is around £700-800m.

Where:

Some Northern Hub works have been built (e.g. the Ordsall Chord), but ‘Package C’ to enable 16 trains per hour to run on the Castlefield corridor, by:
• re-modelling Manchester Oxford Road for longer, more frequent trains; and
• providing two additional through platforms (15 & 16) at Manchester Piccadilly.
has not yet been started.
Those Package C works required a Transport and Works Act Order (TWAO). A Public Inquiry was held and reported in 2015, and the TWAO has been awaiting a Ministerial decision since then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd describe them as semi-fast / all principal stations — the equivalent of an MML train calling at Luton (and in earlier days at St Albans too), Bedford, etc, or a GW train calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, and Bath on the way to Bristol. And can any service that has regular (not the sort of peak-hour only stops you find on some German IC services) Lockerbie stops be really inter-city?

I am beginning to tire of both references to German rail services and of seeing Germanic phraseology concerning railway operational usage on this website. This is Britain with a very long historical period of railway operations and not a small subservient part of any "numbered Reich". Isambard Kingdom Brunel would, I feel, be in agreement with me over this matter..

 

[Gareth]

I had Land Of Hope And Glory in my head reading that post.

A difference between Britain and many parts of Germany and some other countries is that there's often a clear hierarchical divide in the types of services in those other countries. It's not just a branding thing but the nature of how the railways operate there. Things tend to be a lot more muddy in Britain with plenty of overlap between services from local metro through to long distance.

 

[Mogster]

Good that the issue is getting mainstream coverage.

The question is what will ministers decide?

To announce this investment, it’ll get a small bit of publicity, will be met by indifference by many members of the public, and will be delivered in 10 years time
Or
Ignore it, instead announce that they are stripping Northern of the franchise. It will get massive publicity, gain massive public support and will be delivered in a few months. But will actually solve nothing

Yes. Some of the problems, lack of staff, training, do lie at Northern and TPEs door but much of the poor performance is down to underlying infrastructure problems. The infrastructure problems have hardly been mentioned in the MSM up till now which I find incredibly frustrating.

 

[CdBrux]

at the risk to drifting way off topic don't believe all is wonderful in Germany. For the 4 morning commutes to work on the s-bahn so far this year:
1 cancelled
2 between 5 & 10 mins late (fairly standard)
1 could be described as 1 minute early, but was actually 19 minutes late (was the previous service!)

 

[Tomnick]

Slade Lane and onto Piccadilly....
To my inexpert eye it seems unnecessarily complicated, almost as though the intention was to create as many conflicts as possible.
Wouldn’t it be easier for the Stockport lines to merge from 4 into the two east side tracks and the airport line to stay on the two westside tracks all the way into Piccadilly. Almost everything from the airport goes through 13/14 and almost everything from Stockport goes into the terminal platforms. It’s only a couple of miles with no stations so speed differentials can’t require overtaking??
What am I missing?

It’s a pretty flexible layout, really. Fast and slow lines to/from Stockport merge into the fast lines without conflicting with Airport trains to/from the slow lines, which is what you’re suggesting, but with the addition of other connections to allow movements between Stockport direction and the slow lines towards Picc too, with parallel moves possible in each direction. It’s all relatively fast too, 75mph straight through on the fast lines and the Down Slow and 45mph for everything else, let down by some rather restrictive signalling (approach release and conditional double reds). Anything using the slow lines to access the main shed from the Stockport direction is presumably doing so to avoid a conflict with fast line trains between Slade Lane and Picc, which is sensible, and conversely some trains to/from the Castlefield direction cross to/from the fast lines at Picc or Ardwick if there’d be a conflict (planned or otherwise) at Slade Lane.

 

[Jozhua]

So there was a Northern Powerhouse or Transport For North or whatever its called meeting about the situation today I believe, I don't quite know what the outcome is yet, I'd hope that it gets brought up in Government again.

I had Land Of Hope And Glory in my head reading that post.

A difference between Britain and many parts of Germany and some other countries is that there's often a clear hierarchical divide in the types of services in those other countries. It's not just a branding thing but the nature of how the railways operate there. Things tend to be a lot more muddy in Britain with plenty of overlap between services from local metro through to long distance.

I doubt it does much to get the trains to run on time and people where they need to go. It's a nice to have, but I'd like trains muddy or no to run on time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So there was a Northern Powerhouse or Transport For North or whatever its called meeting about the situation today I believe, I don't quite know what the outcome is yet, I'd hope that it gets brought up in Government again.

Please see posting # 569 by @Greybeard33 on the "TransPennine Express December 2019 proposals" thread, where that meeting is reported upon.

 

[Meerkat]

In other words "all" that is required is the Chat Moss tracks from Victoria to be elevated to pass over the whole Ordsall Lane site and connect with the Chat Moss route proper a little further west using a grade separated junction. The disused freight terminal area would provide some of the space needed meaning the biggest obstacle would be the complete rebuilding of the Oldfield Road (A5066) bridge.

How much freight uses that route, particularly at busy times?
If you left a flat route through for heavy freight and dedicated the flyover to electric/bimode passenger trains how short and steep can the flyover be?

 

[Greybeard33]

Please see posting # 569 by @Greybeard33 on the "TransPennine Express December 2019 proposals" thread, where that meeting is reported upon.

See also my post #201 in the [URL="https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/castlefield-corridor-potential-solutions.197125/page-7#post-4375475"]Castlefield corridor potential solutions?[/URL] thread, which reports on the Agenda item "Measures in Central Manchester to Improve Northern Rail Reliability" of the TfN Board Meeting 08 Jan.

 

[Mogster]

More from the MEN, just surprised it’s taken this long. Maybe they’ve started reading this forum?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../broken-promises-mean-northern-train-17538340

After another nosedive in performance, ministers are ratcheting up the rhetoric around scrapping rail franchises. But thanks to delayed upgrades, there is no easy fix for the problems here - and in the short term, two trains an hour could now be axed to ease the chaos

 

[Roast Veg]

Which services would be removed? The TfW and EMR ones seem the best ones to curtail as far as I can see.

 

[Mollman]

Which services would be removed? The TfW and EMR ones seem the best ones to curtail as far as I can see.

EMR is tempting given it seems to be unreliable and short formed a lot of the time I encounter it at the moment. I would expect the Blackpool - Hazel Grove to be split as Blackpool - Victoria and Picc - Hazel Grove

 

[Chester1]

Which services would be removed? The TfW and EMR ones seem the best ones to curtail as far as I can see.

Cutting the EMR service would mean no direct trains between Liverpool and Sheffield and reducing the CLC line to 3tph. TfW diversion would be a big political battle but it would make practical sense to divert it to Victoria, so that both Chester-Manchester fast services use the same Manchester station. Splitting the Liverpool-Airport-Crewe service into Liverpool-Victoria and Piccadilly-Airport-Crewe would be another option. A £10-12m siding to the east of Victoria could be built very quickly if there was political will.

 

[notlob.divad]

TfW diversion would be a big political battle but it would make practical sense to divert it to Victoria, so that both Chester-Manchester fast services use the same Manchester station. Splitting the Liverpool-Airport-Crewe service into Liverpool-Victoria and Piccadilly-Airport-Crewe would be another option.

And result in no way of reaching Oxford Road / Piccadilly from the Chat moss line. Without an extra change in trains at Victoria. At least if you diveted trains away from the Windsor link, and into Victoria, they would have the option to change at Salford Crescent. Removing both the via Huyton stopper and the North Wales coast trains leaves everyone doubling back at Victoria, and even more people crowding onto packed TPE trains for the short hop around the chord.