Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

[Greybeard33]

I would expect the Blackpool - Hazel Grove to be split as Blackpool - Victoria and Picc - Hazel Grove

I doubt if the Blackpool - Hazel Grove will be split because the timings would not work. The Blackpool half would need a layover of nearly an hour at Victoria, and there is a lack of suitable electrified sidings.

 

[Killingworth]

Which services would be removed? The TfW and EMR ones seem the best ones to curtail as far as I can see.

Depends where you're looking from. Users from Sheffield would like the bottleneck resolving so their direct link to Liverpool could become reliable. It's diabolical at present, see the current performance statistics from Realtime Trains for trains from Liverpool to Sheffield

Search Results
The table below lists all train services departing Liverpool Lime Street (d LIV) and arriving in Sheffield (a SHF) for the specified time period. Also shown is the percentage of the time that each service arrived in Sheffield no more than 5 minutes late, as well as the average arrival time of each service in Sheffield.

See link above.

Current short forming, including 2 x 153s and 156s, doesn't help recovery times or loading at 13/14.

Back in 2014 Sheffield was supposed to be getting two further fast trains an hour to Manchester and beyond - by 2018. That's been pruned back to one extra making 3 an hour and not before 2023. The Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme was a junior component in the Northen Hub work that was supposed to make all the services being offered by Northern and TPE possible. Even when completed it has been pared back to the bone so won't offer as much help as it could.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And result in no way of reaching Oxford Road / Piccadilly from the Chat moss line. Without an extra change in trains at Victoria. At least if you diveted trains away from the Windsor link, and into Victoria, they would have the option to change at Salford Crescent. Removing both the via Huyton stopper and the North Wales coast trains leaves everyone doubling back at Victoria, and even more people crowding onto packed TPE trains for the short hop around the chord.

Though that's only going back to the mid-2000s situation. CLC for Picc, Chat Moss for Vic.

 

[Andyh82]

More from the MEN, just surprised it’s taken this long. Maybe they’ve started reading this forum?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../broken-promises-mean-northern-train-17538340

It hasn’t reached the most mainstream of mainstream media yet tough

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51048896

Troubled rail operator Northern has the finances to continue only "for a number of months", the government has said.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has announced he is evaluating a proposal from the train operator on options for continuing its franchise.

The process could ultimately lead to the government taking control of services, he said.

Arriva Rail North, which operates Northern services, apologised to customers for ongoing disruption.

The company has faced a range of issues in recent years, such as widespread cancellations amid the introduction of new timetables.

A final decision on the future of Northern will be taken later this month.

They are still reporting that it’s all Northern’s fault and it’ll be all resolved if they lose the franchise, with quotes from all the relevant majors etc. So don’t expect infrastructure announcements any time soon.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

How much freight uses that route, particularly at busy times?
If you left a flat route through for heavy freight and dedicated the flyover to electric/bimode passenger trains how short and steep can the flyover be?

It's the preferred route (shortest) for traffic from Arpley yards to Yorkshire with the alternative being via the WCML and the Mid-Cheshire line. Retaining a single-track "low-level" link at Ordsall Lane might be workable. As for gradient limits as against the available room that is a question for someone with more detailed knowledge!

And result in no way of reaching Oxford Road / Piccadilly from the Chat moss line. Without an extra change in trains at Victoria. At least if you diveted trains away from the Windsor link, and into Victoria, they would have the option to change at Salford Crescent. Removing both the via Huyton stopper and the North Wales coast trains leaves everyone doubling back at Victoria, and even more people crowding onto packed TPE trains for the short hop around the chord.

TBF those TPE trains are disgorging a reasonable volume of westbound passengers for whom Victoria is a convenient station for Manchester so there should be some room for connecting passengers to board. But I agree it could only be acceptable as a short-term and time-limited measure.

 

[Roast Veg]

Depends where you're looking from. Users from Sheffield would like the bottleneck resolving so their direct link to Liverpool could become reliable. It's diabolical at present, see the current performance statistics from Realtime Trains for trains from Liverpool to Sheffield


Current short forming, including 2 x 153s and 156s, doesn't help recovery times or loading at 13/14.

Back in 2014 Sheffield was supposed to be getting two further fast trains an hour to Manchester and beyond - by 2018. That's been pruned back to one extra making 3 an hour and not before 2023. The Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme was a junior component in the Northen Hub work that was supposed to make all the services being offered by Northern and TPE possible. Even when completed it has been pared back to the bone so won't offer as much help as it could.

I am aware that the absence of Hope Valley improvements combined with the missing platforms at Piccadilly has made this service woeful. Although it is a great shame that Sheffield passengers should have to suffer both greatly increased journey times and more crowded TPE services, it really does look like truncating the service to a Norwich-Sheffield diagram would be the least worst option for the time being. The timings don't appear to work in the morning at Sheffield, so whether the junctions south of the station can handle the retiming, or nearly hour long layovers in the station itself, is a bit questionable.

The TfW service moving to Victoria would, it seems, be far too tight a turnaround.

 

[CdBrux]

This TfN report gives a good clear summary, let's hope the action is now swift.

https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-5-Central-Manchester-Report.pdf

5. Recommendation:
5.1 Infrastructure enhancements It is recommended that the Transport for the North’s Board should state clearly that:
• resolution to the current problems of congested infrastructure should be through provision of adequate infrastructure rather than long-term reductions in services or unreliable operation: and
• any reductions in service that might be necessary in the shortterm should be recognised as temporary palliative measures until the infrastructure has been enhanced.

5.2 It is recommended that the Transport for the North Board should:
1. Advise the Secretary of State to approve the next stage (which is understood to be detailed design) of the ‘Package C’ works by:
a. Approving the TWAO now;
b. start GRIP 4 (detailed design) without further delay; and
c. Identify Do Minimum costs for Oxford Road & Piccadilly (for longer trains & increasing passenger flow);

2. Welcome and Strongly support the DfT/NWR ‘Other options’, in particular:
a. The Manchester Victoria eastern turnback which should be approved immediately;
b. Manchester Airport, which should be progressed urgently, including synergies with Airport road works planned for 2020- 2021;
c. early development of 3 quick-wins;
d. Ordsall Lane grade-separation; and
e. Salford Crescent
and request consideration of similar options south of Piccadilly, including:
• Assess Piccadilly – Slade Lane/Stockport urgently for the benefits of and optimum location for grade-separation; and
• assess the value of 6-tracks Longsight – Slade Lane;

3. Request a piece of work to assess freight options avoiding Castlefield; and

4. Seek designation of Stockport & Manchester Airport as ‘Congested Infrastructure’.

 

[Jozhua]

More from the MEN, just surprised it’s taken this long. Maybe they’ve started reading this forum?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../broken-promises-mean-northern-train-17538340

Jennifer Williams, she's really on it in regards to the rail issues around Central Manchester, in fact she's quite a vocal voice for the improvements that need to be made.

In regards to service splitting, I think some services will have to avoid or be truncated outside of Manchester altogether. There isn't enough westward capacity at Victoria or Castlefield to accommodate basically anything. Maybe Norwich to Piccadilly, but Warrington doesn't have many services. Perhaps TfW, but as others have said, limited options at Victoria.

One of the half-hourly Ordsall services should be cut at least. Maybe try and terminate another service at the Oxford Road bay.

 

[yorksrob]

From the MEN.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...piccadilly-expansion-isnt-signed-off-17528983

That's good news that local Government are beginning to push the issue.

It hasn’t reached the most mainstream of mainstream media yet tough

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51048896



They are still reporting that it’s all Northern’s fault and it’ll be all resolved if they lose the franchise, with quotes from all the relevant majors etc. So don’t expect infrastructure announcements any time soon.

It's funny - you'd have thought that the BBC should have a better picture of what's going on up here, given that they've decamped to Salford.

 

[Jozhua]

That's good news that local Government are beginning to push the issue.

It's funny - you'd have thought that the BBC should have a better picture of what's going on up here, given that they've decamped to Salford.

My theory is many people come up to work at Mediacity for the week before hopping back in their BMWs to London for the weekend. Even if they get the tram + train back to London, they avoid 13/14 for the most part!

Also, I think the majority of people notice when things aren't running well or reliably, but probably don't look past the surface level to see what the problems actually are.

 

[B&I]

I had Land Of Hope And Glory in my head reading that post.

A difference between Britain and many parts of Germany and some other countries is that there's often a clear hierarchical divide in the types of services in those other countries. It's not just a branding thing but the nature of how the railways operate there. Things tend to be a lot more muddy in Britain with plenty of overlap between services from local metro through to long distance.

Another major difference is that many things in Germany (including many aspects of the rail system) work better than they do here. But why would we possibly think that we could learn anything from The Dastardly Hun ? After All, This Is England !

 

[B&I]

And result in no way of reaching Oxford Road / Piccadilly from the Chat moss line. Without an extra change in trains at Victoria. At least if you diveted trains away from the Windsor link, and into Victoria, they would have the option to change at Salford Crescent. Removing both the via Huyton stopper and the North Wales coast trains leaves everyone doubling back at Victoria, and even more people crowding onto packed TPE trains for the short hop around the chord.

I've found that, going to / from points east / south of Piccadilly, the Chat Moss stopper is often the quickest way to get to / from Lime Street, let alone the intermediate stations. Even with the revival of Transpennine services via Victoria, Piccasilly remains a major hub for a lot of journeys from the north-west.

Whether it would be sensible to provide similar options from a wider range of destinations west and north of Manchester, rather than pushing people to travel through Manchester's already congested centre where other routes would be feasible, is perhaps an issue for another thread

 

[CdBrux]

Another major difference is that many things in Germany (including.many aspects of the rail system) work better than they do here. But why would we possibly think that we could learn anything from The Dastardly Hun ? After All, This Is England !

Have a look back to post 830. To the final category you can add another (this morning). DB in my experience of actually living in Germany is nowhere near as good as many people think. But again in danger of going way off topic. And of course DB do own Northern TOC!

 

[CdBrux]

You can see a recording of the TfN board meeting here, item 5 is about Castlefield. It's an interesting watch. Seems like TfN have done a good job, let's see if government back them.

https://transportforthenorth.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/462016

 

[krus_aragon]

But why would we possibly think that we could learn anything from The Dastardly Hun ? After All, This Is England !

... says the person with a French username!

 

[B&I]

... says the person with a French username!

La tradition en anglais était déjà occupé

 

[B&I]

Have a look back to post 830. To the final category you can add another (this morning). DB in my experience of actually living in Germany is nowhere near as good as many people think. But again in danger of going way off topic. And of course DB do own Northern TOC!

I has noticed your post, and found the reference to delays in an S Bahn services running every 20 minutes to be quite amusing, when many suburban lines around the northern English cities still have hourly services for most of the day

 

[Mogster]

Saw this bizarre interview with Jake Berry on Granada Reports earlier. No fan of Burnham but he’s been calling for Northern to be stripped of the franchise for months...

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/20...ers-could-have-acted-sooner-on-northern-rail/

The Northern Powerhouse Minister has told ITV News that the process to strip Northern Rail of its franchise could've been started sooner.

Jake Berry MP said that northern leaders should have pushed harder for action if they were unhappy with the rail operator.

Transport for the North have said, in a statement: "We've made our position very clear - over many months - that the Government must take action regarding the Northern franchise.

"We've done so privately and publicly....Our leaders have been calling for more powers to make decisions about transport investment and operational matters, no matter how difficult, for some time."

 

[Greybeard33]

Saw this bizarre interview with Jake Berry on Granada Reports earlier. No fan of Burnham but he’s been calling for Northern to be stripped of the franchise for months...

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/20...ers-could-have-acted-sooner-on-northern-rail/

This misinformation attack on TfN appears to be part of a campaign by Ministers to deflect attention from TfN's public call for P15/16 to be funded. The reporter was pressing Jake Berry on the inadequacy of the Manchester infrastructure.

The Government strategy seems to be to try to put all the blame on ARN (mis)management.

 

[Mogster]

This misinformation attack on TfN appears to be part of a campaign by Ministers to deflect attention from TfN's public call for P15/16 to be funded. The reporter was pressing Jake Berry on the inadequacy of the Manchester infrastructure.

The Government strategy seems to be to try to put all the blame on ARN (mis)management.

Yes, that’s the impression I got.

 

[Killingworth]

This misinformation attack on TfN appears to be part of a campaign by Ministers to deflect attention from TfN's public call for P15/16 to be funded. The reporter was pressing Jake Berry on the inadequacy of the Manchester infrastructure.

The Government strategy seems to be to try to put all the blame on ARN (mis)management.

The worrying bit is exactly what this means "Mr Berry also refused to rule out a cut to the number of trains available for commuters across the region should the company lose its contract under the process started earlier this week."

 

[Bletchleyite]

The worrying bit is exactly what this means "Mr Berry also refused to rule out a cut to the number of trains available for commuters across the region should the company lose its contract under the process started earlier this week."

Well, cuts to services are needed (fewer, longer trains) to sort out the reliability issue. This won't be politically nice, but the alternative, until any infrastructure improvements are done, is that the same issues persist.

 

[Glenn1969]

Not sure passengers or their representatives will accept cuts though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure passengers or their representatives will accept cuts though

Well, they're fools, then.

 

[yorksrob]

So a member of the Tory Government that has controlled franchising for the last decade, is now criticising TfN for not calling for the removal of a franchise that was always within the Tories gift to remove anyway.

Priceless - it would be astounding were it not for the fact that this is classic Tory obfuscation.

 

[Glenn1969]

They will put up with them but only if it is made clear that the cuts are a short term fix to allow the infrastructure to be upgraded and services to be improved to the levels promised 5 years ago

 

[cle]

Jennifer Williams, she's really on it in regards to the rail issues around Central Manchester, in fact she's quite a vocal voice for the improvements that need to be made.

In regards to service splitting, I think some services will have to avoid or be truncated outside of Manchester altogether. There isn't enough westward capacity at Victoria or Castlefield to accommodate basically anything. Maybe Norwich to Piccadilly, but Warrington doesn't have many services. Perhaps TfW, but as others have said, limited options at Victoria.

One of the half-hourly Ordsall services should be cut at least. Maybe try and terminate another service at the Oxford Road bay.

Which service would be useful to turn in the Oxford Road bay?

I agree that Ordsall really wasn't ready, or at least was premature, in isolation.

 

[B&I]

Well, they're fools, then.

Who's going to explain to passengers why the cuts are necessary ? The politicians, local or national, who've spent years not making the necessary improvements to infrastructure ?

 

[323 Class]

The route cause is the infrastructure and failure to implement it in a synchronised way. Look at the M60, they needed more capacity so they borrowed the hard shoulder to make an extra lane. Most lines out of Manchester condense into one up and one down, there are few passing places where an express can overtake a local stopper so delays rear their head.
We then come back to the circular conversation over trains that are short formed. Take a 4 car service which only has 2 cars. The timings go out of the window at each stop due to people trying to find a space in the sardine tin and people equally trying to get to the doors to exit the train. With 4 cars, there would be a fighting chance of a smoother on / off stream of passengers and shorter alighting times which was the planned path in the first place.
We then come back to the infrastructure conundrum again though when a train cant be lengthened because the termination bay or platform at a station isn't adequate to receive it. So then someone says, lets do a service every 30 minutes, only to be tripped up yet again by the capacity restrictions because they cant fit another path down the route.
If services have to be cut to improve the punctuality whilst waiting and waiting for infrastructure improvements, the end result will either be passengers going back to their cars (if that's an option) or the services that do run will be so overcrowded as to not keep to time and cause further delays through the network.

 

[daodao]

The route cause is the infrastructure and failure to implement it in a synchronised way. Look at the M60, they needed more capacity so they borrowed the hard shoulder to make an extra lane. Most lines out of Manchester condense into one up and one down, there are few passing places where an express can overtake a local stopper so delays rear their head.
We then come back to the circular conversation over trains that are short formed. Take a 4 car service which only has 2 cars. The timings go out of the window at each stop due to people trying to find a space in the sardine tin and people equally trying to get to the doors to exit the train. With 4 cars, there would be a fighting chance of a smoother on / off stream of passengers and shorter alighting times which was the planned path in the first place.
We then come back to the infrastructure conundrum again though when a train cant be lengthened because the termination bay or platform at a station isn't adequate to receive it. So then someone says, lets do a service every 30 minutes, only to be tripped up yet again by the capacity restrictions because they cant fit another path down the route.
If services have to be cut to improve the punctuality whilst waiting and waiting for infrastructure improvements, the end result will either be passengers going back to their cars (if that's an option) or the services that do run will be so overcrowded as to not keep to time and cause further delays through the network.

Well put. In essence, one can't squeeze a quart into a pint pot.

Unfortunately, infrastructure improvements to the Castlefield corridor are expensive and thus unlikely to happen for some time, so in the medium-term, optimal use needs to be made of available capacity.

Therefore, the best services to cut are those that use a disproportional share of the available infrastructure, e.g. by calling at several stations where one would suffice or which make excessive use of platform capacity. I would single out non-Northern services, in particular the following:

• 2 tph TPE from Leeds via Huddersfield to the Airport via Victoria and the Castlefield line. These should run via Guide Bridge and terminate in the ex-GC platforms in Piccadilly.
• 1 tph TPE from Scotland via the Castlefield line to the Airport. These should terminate at Victoria, and be run by the WCML franchise.
• t tph TPE from Cleethorpes to the Airport via Piccadilly. These should terminate in the ex-LNW platforms in Piccadilly and be run by the EM franchise. A bus connection should be provided from Stockport to the Airport by diverting existing bus route 199 via Edgeley station.
• 1 tph TfW from North Wales via the Castlefield line to the Airport. These should terminate at Victoria.

Downsizing of Victoria and closure of Exchange station requires a turn-back siding to be created east of Victoria for the ex-LNW long distance services that historically terminated at Exchange. This should be quicker, simpler and cheaper to implement than infrastructure works on the Castlefield corridor.

I would also remove all non-electric services from the Castlefield corridor other than those to the CLC line and the Rochdale line.