Photography - Your Rights under Section 44

Discussion in 'Photography Advice & Discussion' started by Old Timer, 14 Dec 2009.

  1. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    I guess it comes down to individual people.

    If a PCSO is wrong, then he is acting outside the Law and his authority, and therefore the Policeman can and indeed should take the PCSO to task, albeit not necessarily in front of the public.

    It is for the Policeman to take charge of the PCSO at the time, because at the end of the day the role of the PCSO is to support, and to work under the direction of the Police Officer.

    Simply backing away from rectifying the situation is not an excuse for a Policeman to allow a S44 search to go ahead if it is not warranted, simply to appease the feelings of a PCSO.
     
  2. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    My point exactly OT - it is for the PC to take charge of the PCSO, yet not in front of the public - which is hard when the photographer is in a public place. That said, if the PCSO is acting outside the law then the PC should certianly step in. It just creates a hard situation, increased by the fact that journalists are doing it deliberately for a story. An honest photter who then films what is happening I do not mind, but trying to make it happen does not help either party.
     
  3. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    I don't think they had to work too hard to make it happen. Look at Macclesfield, slightly different I accept but still pertinent.
     
  4. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Maybe they didn't have to work hard, but there is a difference between trying to make it happen, or going out to take photos for your interest and then it happening.
     
  5. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

    Messages:
    3,704
    Joined:
    24 Aug 2009
    Location:
    On a plane somewhere at 35,000
    But ultimately they are doing everyone a service in this particular case by highighting the facts. Sometimes it is necessary to do this.
     
  6. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

    Messages:
    5,764
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Essex
    Yes, in the first instance, showing that it happens. However, it doesn't have to be done time and time again.
     
  7. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

    Messages:
    3,964
    Joined:
    22 Jan 2009
    I disagree - it needs to be done repeatedly until the Police get the message that it's unacceptable!
     
  8. royaloak

    royaloak Established Member

    Messages:
    1,389
    Joined:
    11 Oct 2009
    Location:
    today I will mostly be at home decorating
    This is another case of incorrect use of the laws, but she was videoing the CCTV cameras.
    having dealt with several PCSOs in my local area NONE of them are like this idiot, he is just on a power trip.
     
  9. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    17,053
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    Indeed, the police should be shamed as much as possible in the hope that either they will change the way they work or the public will say "enough is enough" and force change on them.

    First step would be abolishing s44; it serves no purpose.
     
  10. u10207420

    u10207420 Member

    Messages:
    72
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2009
    After reading this topic, I have done some research on the BTP website on they clearly state:

    "Photography

    You are allowed to take photographs on stations if it is for personal use. For any commercial photography, you must seek prior permission from the appropriate train operator or from Network Rail at their 17 major stations. On busy stations using a tripod may cause a dangerous obstruction to passengers so you may be asked to remove it. You must also keep tripod legs away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. You are not allowed to use flash photography on platforms as it may distract the attention of train drivers and train dispatch staff and is therefore a potential safety hazard. You are also not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras. "

    I am confident that every single of us (Photters), would abide by this, providing that platform staff would not interfere.

    I have attached the direct link, should you wish to link at the webpage, possibily for printing for proof, that it is well within our rights and the LAW !!

    http://www.btp.police.uk/passengers/advice_and_information/rail_enthusiasts.aspx
     
  11. Jeff Worsnop

    Jeff Worsnop Member

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    13 Feb 2010

    Why not cooperate with good grace unless, of course, your intention is to make a political gesture and be difficult as a matter of principle?
     
  12. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    17,053
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    Because that's not what the law says? Because the police cannot be trusted? Because I have taken a photograph for a purpose and do not want to delete it? Because I do not want to suffer the embarassment of xyz at the hands of complete strangers in public?

    Hundreds of reasons.
     
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    44,147
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Good grace?! How is stopping and searching someone for photography under the excuse of terrorism, "good grace"?
     
  14. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

    Messages:
    3,565
    Joined:
    3 Sep 2009
    Location:
    South London
    I'm sorry, it's almost as if you're suggesting it's fair :shock:
     
  15. 90019

    90019 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,595
    Joined:
    29 May 2008
    Location:
    Edinburgh/Leeds
    I presume that you go along with good grace whenever anyone in a position of authority tells you to do something that they don't actually have any legal right to make you do, then?
     
  16. Jeff Worsnop

    Jeff Worsnop Member

    Messages:
    17
    Joined:
    13 Feb 2010
    I don't comprehend your your first sentence.
    In a large group of people there will be a few "bad apples" who can't be trusted.
    No one says you have to delete a photograph or even stop photographing - unless to do so could cause a breach of the peace, eg if someone violently objects to you taking pictures of their child and you continue with photographing the child. Why be embarassed?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    To say that would be nonsense.
    I said accept the situation of being stopped with good grace.
    My experience is that cooperating in a sensible way with "authority", defuses tension and the "authority" can get the job done and be on their way.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Life isn't fair and never was. Parliament passed the law so the unfairness (as you seem to see it) is down to MPs. Lobby your MP. or other elected representative to change that law if it bothers you.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Have you a personal experience of this.
    Of course if a person without authority to do so interfers with your right to go about your business then you should object. But do so in a rational and calm way unless you also want to be an arse.
     
  17. 43167

    43167 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,019
    Joined:
    18 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Keighley
    Thanks for that. Just printed a copy off.
     
  18. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

    Messages:
    4,260
    Joined:
    22 Apr 2010
    Law In Action, BBC Radio 4 tonight (20:00) is to include an item about photography & the police. Will also be available on i-player at BBC website if you miss the broadcast.

    Bevan
     
  19. former basher

    former basher Member

    Messages:
    13
    Joined:
    1 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Leeds
    www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm

    this link might help you !
     
  20. jrhilton

    jrhilton Member

    Messages:
    116
    Joined:
    13 Apr 2009
    Old news, but Section 44 has been suspended for the time being for individuals though vehicles can still be searched. See here: http://www.journalism.co.uk/2/articles/539533.php

    Police need to "reasonably suspect the person to be a terrorist" before they are searched under S43 now too.

    All in all, good news.
     
  21. ChrisCooper

    ChrisCooper Established Member

    Messages:
    1,787
    Joined:
    7 Sep 2005
    Location:
    Loughborough
    I know this is an old thread, but I've been away from the forum a while so didn't get to comment at the time regarding the suspension of section 44. I do wonder if it really is such great news for rail photographers etc, as surely the police could just say that taking photographs is reasonable suspition of terrorism? Photographers were not being stopped randomly under section 44 (which is what it allows) but due to the fact that they were taking photographs. If officers did not suspect that photographers were doing anything wrong, then why were they stopping and searching them? Unless they suspected their activities were related to terrorism, why were they using anti-terror laws? I think it's still to early to celebrate, as they could just as easily use section 43 instead.
     
  22. lifeboat1721

    lifeboat1721 Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    8 Oct 2009
    Location:
    Morecambe lancs
    Personally I have no Problems with the Police!!

    I also Photograph Ships and I have been checked by the police and I keep my copy of the search in my Kit bag, If an officer ask's me what I've taken I'll gladly show them, I feel it's better have them as friends as enimies as a couple of times I've needed there help..

    Each to there own..
     

Share This Page