Platform space at Milton Keynes and Southern 5/8 car trains

[Class377/5]

In Battersea.

There's a few there being commission and a few more stored. There's about five or six that have already been in service there out of the way.

Currently there at 7x 377/6 diagrams on week days with 16 planned for the new timetable change. However that's only interim as Bombardier hasn't delivered enough 377/6 for the timetable. Once all 26 are with Southern the week be 24 weekend day diagrams.

 

[Trog]

2A was always known as the Reading bay back in the days of the route mod.

Knowing Route Mod that was probably where they thought it was. :roll:

 

[Nym]

Would it be at all sensible to extend the SN services operated by 110mph stock to Rugby via Weedon and assign the 100mph to Watford terminators?

Late running could be accounted for by terminating in Platform 5...

Alternatively just extend them to Northampton?

 

[MK Tom]

I keep advocating Northampton extensions but nobody's with me on that.

As for Rugby that'd mean switching onto the fasts somewhere which is problematic to say the least. Unless you path them fast all the way only serving WFJ and MKC before Rugby. That I'd support, but the residents of Hemel and Leighton probably wouldn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The southern services from Wembley to Shepherds Bush are painfully slow, to the point I could walk faster . I think this is partly due to the fact that they nearly always pass each other at Sudbury Junction and Clapham Junction.

It's the 5mph and 10mph limits around the dive-under. Seems quite stupid to me that nothing's been done about that. Wooden sleepers and jointed rail the whole way too.

 

[mr_jrt]

Personally...I'd prefer they just reinstated platforms at Willesden Junction on the WLL and WCML and terminated the Southern services there, and used their paths to run additional services on the WCML slow lines. Should help with performance pollution and the interchange would hardly be that traumatic. Freed from the constraints of platforms at Victoria and paths on the WCML, decoupling the two might even make new service patterns feasible.

...or hell, if capacity at Victoria isn't an issue, run them into there and use the WLL paths for more LO services. With WCML platforms the interchange maintains the connections.

 

[cle]

Hard without the ever elusive (original) platform 1 at Clapham!

I like the services, and they're well used north of Shepherds Bush so now there is established demand, having run for 10 odd years at least (Connex etc) - but I'm not 100% sure they need to run north of Watford Junction personally.

 

[Class377/5]

Would it be at all sensible to extend the SN services operated by 110mph stock to Rugby via Weedon and assign the 100mph to Watford terminators?

Late running could be accounted for by terminating in Platform 5...

Alternatively just extend them to Northampton?

That would require another order of new stock tho and for a small fleet of around 6 units, not the best valve for money.

 

[mr_jrt]

Hard without the ever elusive (original) platform 1 at Clapham!

I like the services, and they're well used north of Shepherds Bush so now there is established demand, having run for 10 odd years at least (Connex etc) - but I'm not 100% sure they need to run north of Watford Junction personally.

As do I - I live in Brighton and am from Watford, so the old long-gone through service was ideal. However, things would be a lot more robust if the platforms at Willesden came back. the LO alternative to the Southern service when you miss your connection is horrible as it's all stations from Clapham to Watford.

The demand north of Shepherds Bush can't be that great though - they propose terminating the additional southern services at Shepherds Bush rather than through to Willesden Junction, which I would have thought would have been a much better interchange, even though it requires new WLL platforms and a new footbridge (the expensive WCML platforms are not essential for this, really, though they improve the BCR massively).

 

[gordonthemoron]

whenever I've used southern from MK to Shepherd's Bush and beyond, the train has been reasonably busy north of Watford and then becomes completely chokka at Watford

 

[DarloRich]

It looks like there were some oversights when NR rebuilt MK, especially with platform 2A being only able to take 4 cars.

No - it looks like the station was rebuilt with a bay for service to Bedford/Oxford rather than extra London trains!

The pain point was to allow Marston Vale train to run to Milton Keynes - as those services are run ( and will continue to be run!) by 1 or 2 car trains the bay is just about the right length!

The fact the Southern terminator can go in their is a bonus of the design

 

[swt_passenger]

... they propose terminating the additional southern services at Shepherds Bush rather than through to Willesden Junction, which I would have thought would have been a much better interchange, even though it requires new WLL platforms and a new footbridge (the expensive WCML platforms are not essential for this, really, though they improve the BCR massively).

There are two published aspects to 'additional Southern WLL services'. There are those peak extras that can run now using DC stock and are therefore limited to Shepherds Bush, and then there are those proposed in the options in the London and SE RUS, where option I1 is to run 2 tph - either to Watford junction or 'beyond' which could be anywhere as far as Milton Keynes, but this requires a WCML timetable recast. There is also the separate option I2 which is about extending the SN WLL service to 8 cars. The forthcoming 5 car services (May 14) appear to be just a transitional step.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I keep advocating Northampton extensions but nobody's with me on that.

I didn't intend to mean in my earlier post that you couldn't extend beyond MK, just that if you waited until the evening peak, and extended only the problem service, you'd have no stock for the next southbound service.

If you had stock available to run through MK to Northampton all day that would be a different scenario entirely.

 

[cle]

There are two published aspects to 'additional Southern WLL services'. There are those peak extras that can run now using DC stock and are therefore limited to Shepherds Bush, and then there are those proposed in the options in the London and SE RUS, where option I1 is to run 2 tph - either to Watford junction or 'beyond' which could be anywhere as far as Milton Keynes, but this requires a WCML timetable recast. There is a the separate option I2 which is about extending the SN WLL service to 8 cars. The forthcoming 5 car services (May 14) appear to be just a transitional step.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I didn't intend to mean that you couldn't extend beyond MK, just that if you waited until the evening peak, and extended the problem service only, you'd have no stock for the next southbound service.

If you had stock available to run through MK to Northampton all day that would be a different scenario entirely.

Yep exactly (to the top bit) - and if you're at Shepherds Bush and observe a northbound SN leaving, you'll see it's packed. There is now demand, and plenty of it. Enough for the 2tph - SB terminators are peak extras, as mentioned.

I would like low level SN platforms at Willesden Junction too by the way. Not sure if adding LM platforms as well would be worthwhile. A lot of connectivity yes, but a lot of trains slowed down. And I doubt WJ will get much investment now that OOC is so in favour.

And if Crossrail takes those Tring/MK stoppers (the most likely to call at new WJ platforms) - then they'd circumnavigate WJ and the platforms would be redundant!

 

[MK Tom]

One thing I will say is that the Southern service loses a lot of through traffic from how slow it is. The former Connex service that ran MKC-Leighton-Watford-Kensington was far more attractive for long-distance journeys (not to mention continuing to Northampton and Rugby). Having a change at Willesden and using EVEN SLOWER LM services would just send more people through central London.

The WCML and BML timetables may not like this but my favoured proposal is 1tph Northampton-Brighton or Portsmouth via MKC, Leighton, Hemel, Watford, Harrow, Shepherds Bush, Kensington, West Brompton, Clapham, Croydon and Gatwick, then another 1tph Watford-Purley all stops.

 

[mr_jrt]

Having a change at Willesden and using EVEN SLOWER LM services would just send more people through central London.

Surely the only stop where they differ seems to be Bushey, which Southern don't stop at for some reason. Other than that they seem to have identical calling patterns when I've used them?

 

[Class377/5]

There are two published aspects to 'additional Southern WLL services'. There are those peak extras that can run now using DC stock and are therefore limited to Shepherds Bush, and then there are those proposed in the options in the London and SE RUS, where option I1 is to run 2 tph - either to Watford junction or 'beyond' which could be anywhere as far as Milton Keynes, but this requires a WCML timetable recast. There is also the separate option I2 which is about extending the SN WLL service to 8 cars. The forthcoming 5 car services (May 14) appear to be just a transitional step.

Curiously from May Southern will implement a bit of both including 8 car operation.

Has SDO even been used on a train on such a busy route with so much of the train on in the platform (thinking some WLL station will have five of 8 cars in platform)?

 

[MK Tom]

Surely the only stop where they differ seems to be Bushey, which Southern don't stop at for some reason. Other than that they seem to have identical calling patterns when I've used them?

MKC terminators don't usually serve Bushey but do serve Cheddington which Southern don't. Tring terminators serve Aplsey, Kings Langley and Bushey beyond the current Southern stops.

 

[al green]

No - it looks like the station was rebuilt with a bay for service to Bedford/Oxford rather than extra London trains!

The pain point was to allow Marston Vale train to run to Milton Keynes - as those services are run ( and will continue to be run!) by 1 or 2 car trains the bay is just about the right length!

The fact the Southern terminator can go in their is a bonus of the design

Definitely not an oversight. It was, in fact, forward planning. NR weren't going to put the bay platform in. They said they would only do it if MK Council and Beds CC gave them £2m (or £3m can't remember exact amount) to cover extra cost. Since cost of doing it as standalone job a few years later would have been ten times that MK Council and Beds CC coughed up the cash to have the work done at the same time as the major rebuild so that bay platform would ready for the time when Marston Vale and/or EWRL reached MKC. Needed to be 4 car for EWRL.

 

[Chris125]

Personally...I'd prefer they just reinstated platforms at Willesden Junction on the WLL and WCML and terminated the Southern services there, and used their paths to run additional services on the WCML slow lines.

I really don't think that would be wise with Westfield due to expand and a Crossrail/HS2 interchange on the horizon - these will drive up demand substantially.

Chris

 

[zn1]

the platforms in, and its not being used, why the timetables havent been recast for the reversing move at bletchley is beyond me, or to change the service to MK to every 2 hours and BY Vice versa...the only trains it would really affect i think would be the St Trinians express AM & PM which would i think have to start at Bletchley.

with regard to the underpasses at willesden, im surprised they are still below 20 mph, thought that renewal would have completed a couple of years ago, with the intensity of use now in pass use

 

[phil281]

Would it not be possible to install a set of points and use the access for wolverton works as a reversing siding?

 

[Trog]

Would it not be possible to install a set of points and use the access for wolverton works as a reversing siding?

You could do that now, but getting in off the Down Slow would be a pain as it is a trailing connection, so you would need to reverse in.

There was once a scheme to install a tandem in the south end of the incline siding, with leads in the slows to give two south facing crossovers. I won't say it was along time ago but the siding end was sketched out in bull head. The idea was to simplify the electrification of access to Wolverton Works.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

with regard to the underpasses at willesden, im surprised they are still below 20 mph, thought that renewal would have completed a couple of years ago, with the intensity of use now in pass use

The problem is probably the track radii either side of the intersection bridge, and there is no easy answer to that one. As there is not the land available to allow easing of the curves. The Down also has the connection to F sidings just on that curve which again limits your options.

 

[phil281]

You could do that now, but getting in off the Down Slow would be a pain as it is a trailing connection, so you would need to reverse in.

There was once a scheme to install a tandem in the south end of the incline siding, with leads in the slows to give two south facing crossovers. I won't say it was along time ago but the siding end was sketched out in bull head. The idea was to simplify the electrification of access to Wolverton Works.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I meant a facing point on the DS into the south end of the siding, reverse in the access/cutting and then back out onto the US?

 

[MK Tom]

I should point out whilst discussing this that there is always a three minute wait at Tring which could be used to push back the MKC departure time to xx:16 if more time is needed to run to the Wolverton siding and reverse there.