Platform space at Milton Keynes and Southern 5/8 car trains

[MK Tom]

From next May when Southern Croydon services increase to 5/8 cars, platform 2A won't be able to take them any more. There are already times in the day when that service is at MKC at the same time as 8-12 car terminating London services. Does anyone know how this'll be got around? Would it be feasible to extend 2A?

Then further into the future of course Bedford, Oxford and Aylesbury trains will all be vying for platforms 2 and 2A.

 

[DarloRich]

From next May when Southern Croydon services increase to 5/8 cars, platform 2A won't be able to take them any more. There are already times in the day when that service is at MKC at the same time as 8-12 car terminating London services. Does anyone know how this'll be got around? Would it be feasible to extend 2A?

Then further into the future of course Bedford, Oxford and Aylesbury trains will all be vying for platforms 2 and 2A.

use P1 or p2 (or even p3?) and cut down the platform occupancy times?

Without altering the track layout you cant extend 2A - and the sooner we get Bedford trains the better

 

[Nym]

Ummm, I get the feeling that feight might want to be using them lines?

How about using the U&D Fast Loop for more things? Not too familiar with the track layout at MKC.

 

[DarloRich]

Ummm, I get the feeling that feight might want to be using them lines?

How about using the U&D Fast Loop for more things? Not too familiar with the track layout at MKC.

which loop is that?

 

[Trog]

The old Down Fast platform.

 

[al green]

Most Southerns use P2, not 2A. I think there is only one slot each day when there are simultaneously LM and Southern services terminating. I suspect that Southern uses 2A at other times just to avoid rusty rails.

If 2A isn't quite long enough for 5 car it could be made so by moving buffer stops a few metres north. There is about 20m between buffer stops and end wall of bay.

P2 can accommodate 15x20m cars. The track at P2 continues on about 170m beyond platform to buffer stops so can take another 8x20m cars. So by shunting first train up towards buffers could get a 12 car LM and a 8 car Southern into P2. Obviously most of first train would be off the platform.

When MKC was being altered I argued for P2 being extended about 20m north so it could take 16x20m cars. P1 already extends beyond P2 so it would have meant a bit more platform face for P2 and a bit less fence on back of P1. NR wouldn't do it because they had already laid in a cable trough which would have had to be moved slightly or be under that platform extension.

 

[MK Tom]

Most Southerns use P2, not 2A. I think there is only one slot each day when there are simultaneously LM and Southern services terminating. I suspect that Southern uses 2A at other times just to avoid rusty rails.

Yeah they're booked in there at 6PM (when a 12-car LM is occupying 2) but they actually use it pretty much all the time now.

Could dwell times be changed? If you try to suggest altering WCML timetables on here there's usually a chorus of people saying it's too busy.

There's probably the space to extend 2A to make it 5-car anyway - I looked yesterday and the front driver's door of a 377/7 would currently be just out of the platform. Wouldn't there be safety issues with moving the buffers? I thought there was a standard distance nowadays to avoid trains Chestering. However this doesn't get around the problem when 2 377/2s are being used.

 

[DarloRich]

Most Southerns use P2, not 2A. I think there is only one slot each day when there are simultaneously LM and Southern services terminating. I suspect that Southern uses 2A at other times just to avoid rusty rails.

If 2A isn't quite long enough for 5 car it could be made so by moving buffer stops a few metres north. There is about 20m between buffer stops and end wall of bay.

P2 can accommodate 15x20m cars. The track at P2 continues on about 170m beyond platform to buffer stops so can take another 8x20m cars. So by shunting first train up towards buffers could get a 12 car LM and a 8 car Southern into P2. Obviously most of first train would be off the platform.

When MKC was being altered I argued for P2 being extended about 20m north so it could take 16x20m cars. P1 already extends beyond P2 so it would have meant a bit more platform face for P2 and a bit less fence on back of P1. NR wouldn't do it because they had already laid in a cable trough which would have had to be moved slightly or be under that platform extension.

They normally run into 2A all the time now.
IS extending P2 the easiest option? I dont think the buffers on "A could be moved much closer to the wall without impacting on "overshoot" distances.

Would the signalling need to be changed to allow for "mufti occupancy" of P2? I dont think it is possible now.

The old Down Fast platform.

Cheers - you could use p5 i suppose but i doubt that would be ideal as you have to cross all the lines form fast to slow and take away a useful overtaking spot ofr northbound trains. ( i have only know MK since it was rebuilt!)

 

[Nym]

Might be best off extending the shunting kneck on P2 to be long enough for 240m of train clear of fouling the points...

 

[DarloRich]

Might be best off extending the shunting kneck on P2 to be long enough for 240m of train clear of fouling the points...

that would be sensible - if the current arrangements cant be made to work somehow.

Perhaps it might be more sensible to hold the train longer in Bletchley to allow the platforms to clear - they could alleyways use p5

 

[Nym]

that would be sensible - if the current arrangements cant be made to work somehow.

Perhaps it might be more sensible to hold the train longer in Bletchley to allow the platforms to clear - they could alleyways use p5

Btw; for those who don't know.

Platform 5 is currently only planned to be used by the xx:49 Ex. Euston to Birmigham New Street via Northampton, northbound only. (Off peak.)

 

[Trog]

If 2A isn't quite long enough for 5 car it could be made so by moving buffer stops a few metres north. There is about 20m between buffer stops and end wall of bay.

The buffer will be a sliding one that absorbs an impact slowly by moving back against the friction resistance of plates that clamp onto the rails. Move the buffer back adjacent to the end wall and you get a longer platform that you are not allowed to use because the buffer stop does not meet the current standards. If anything longer trains all else being equal would be heavier and would need the buffer moving further away from the end of the track, and extra friction units adding to give the buffer more scope to absorb the greater forces generated by the impact of the heavier train.

 

[Nym]

The buffer will be a sliding one that absorbs an impact slowly by moving back against the friction resistance of plates that clamp onto the rails. Move the buffer back adjacent to the end wall and you get a longer platform that you are not allowed to use because the buffer stop does not meet the current standards. If anything longer trains all else being equal would be heavier and would need the buffer moving further away from the end of the track, and extra friction units adding to give the buffer more scope to absorb the greater forces generated by the impact of the heavier train.

You could also check the trains down to a much lower speed with TPWS loops on approach to allow you to stop closer to the buffers, but it's preferable to do this and provide good mechanical protection.

 

[Trog]

Might be best off extending the shunting kneck on P2 to be long enough for 240m of train clear of fouling the points...

Its more of a trap point than a neck. The alignment of it is done so that if needed it extends straight into the Up Slow so that an extra point can be added to make it an US/P2 crossover. Extending it back any distance would foul one of the slow lines, unless the Up Slow was slued eastwards to make room for it. This would probably require the rebuilding of the northern end of the retaining wall and the new over bridge just off the north end of the station on top of the usual OHLE, S&T and PW works. It would cost the earth.

 

[Nym]

Its more of a trap point than a neck. The alignment of it is done so that if needed it extends straight into the Up Slow so that an extra point can be added to make it an US/P2 crossover. Extending it back any distance would foul one of the slow lines, unless the Up Slow was slued eastwards to make room for it. This would probably require the rebuilding of the northern end of the retaining wall and the new over bridge just off the north end of the station on top of the usual OHLE, S&T and PW works. It would cost the earth.

Kak...

Would proberbly be easyer to run ECS from Platform 2 to Bletchley Sidings between turns where there would be a clash.

Lord knows what will happen when SN wants to go to 2tph up the WLL; terminating the 2nd path at Watford Junction?

Or as has been mooted previously, making the platform ~260m long with permissive working or a split in the centre of it so two eight car units can use it at once, perhaps some pointwork onto the Down Slow to allow an escape at the centre point?

 

[Boodiggy]

We have heard rumours that the southern trains will terminate at Bletchley. Not sure if there is any truth in it or just depot gossip

 

[swt_passenger]

No, something more than a 'rumour', this exact point about MK platforming is covered in the relevant section of the London and SE RUS.

I mentioned the same probable solution in response to this very same question, by the same poster MK Tom, in a previous EWR thread earlier in November. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92465&page=2 I think it was drowned out by froth about extending to Northampton instead, I should have provided the quote and link, so I'll do it here: :roll:

Assessment of Option I2 – lengthen Southern WLL services to 8-car

Operational analysis

No impact identified south of London or on the WLL itself.
On the WCML the bay platform (2A) at Milton Keynes Central is only four-car in length.
Certain WLL services in the evening utilise this platform and cannot readily be replatformed due to London Midland services using Platform 2. If lengthened to 8-car these services will need to be turned at Bletchley instead.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...and south east route utilisation strategy.pdf

For Nym's point about the possibility of 2tph, this is covered by the previous option I1 in the RUS.

 

[DarloRich]

But there is s little point in terminating at Bletchley as you loose the northbound connections at MK and reduce the attractiveness of the service!

(Of more importance - how will i get home??????????????????????? )

 

[tractakid]

The impovement i'd be most keen to introduce is later trains back! I have not yet been on a northbound SN service to MK. I always have to get Virgin or more often London Midland (So I can split at Bletchley and travel 'Any Permitted' cheaper) as, especially on Saturdays, the last return service is ridiculously early.

 

[asylumxl]

But there is s little point in terminating at Bletchley as you loose the northbound connections at MK and reduce the attractiveness of the service!

(Of more importance - how will i get home??????????????????????? )

Change trains or take a bus ?

 

[DarloRich]

Change trains or take a bus ?

By bus? Do i look like a serf? One doesn't travel by bus (Mainly as there are no buses to my house anymore - thanks Arriva!)

I already change trains - form the Southern to the Marston Vale Train. If the Southern train at 17:13 doesn't run the 17:21 is very tight for the 17:31 connection at Bletchely and i cant easily leave work any earlier.

Seriously, it does seem silly to chop of the service at Bletchley. You may as well chop it at Watford as you loose the stop at the major/biggest station in the area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The impovement i'd be most keen to introduce is later trains back! I have not yet been on a northbound SN service to MK. I always have to get Virgin or more often London Midland (So I can split at Bletchley and travel 'Any Permitted' cheaper) as, especially on Saturdays, the last return service is ridiculously early.

Yes - 19:14 is very early to stop the service when they run until 22:14 on a weekday.

 

[al green]

No, something more than a 'rumour', this exact point about MK platforming is covered in the relevant section of the London and SE RUS.

I mentioned the same probable solution in response to this very same question, by the same poster MK Tom, in a previous EWR thread earlier in November. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92465&page=2

But NR haven't been very imaginitive in the LSE RUS. I can quickly come up with a couple of solutions (based on WTT info from RealTime Trains).

1. The down 1806 LM arrival terminates in P2 and returns ECS to Bly CS at 1817. So hold the LM at Bly for 3 mins so that it arrives MKC 1809 and it can then go into P1. P1 has a southbound departure at 1806, hence slight wait at BLy for that to clear. LM as ECS to Bly CS from P1 at 1817. Southern 8 car can use P2.

2. Put the Up 1806 LM into P3, wait a couple of mins and then put it onto UF at MKC after the Up Mcr VT has passed through. It currently crosses from US to UF at Ledburn after the Mcr VT has passed. The down 1806 LM arrival can then terminate in P1. LM as ECS to Bly CS from P1 at 1817. Southern 8 car can use P2.

I expect that there are other solutions too.

 

[Class377/5]

Kak...

Would proberbly be easyer to run ECS from Platform 2 to Bletchley Sidings between turns where there would be a clash.

Lord knows what will happen when SN wants to go to 2tph up the WLL; terminating the 2nd path at Watford Junction?

Or as has been mooted previously, making the platform ~260m long with permissive working or a split in the centre of it so two eight car units can use it at once, perhaps some pointwork onto the Down Slow to allow an escape at the centre point?

The drafts of 2tph Southern services is one to Milton Keynes and other to Watford as its the bit South of Watford experiencing the most overcrowding. Doesn't help when your running a four car via Balham that's just about to get 10 cars alongside it!

What gets me is there five diagrams on week days yet come May there will be 8x five cars and 6x four cars to use the service yet according to Modern Railways its only going to be 3x 377/6 five car services and 1x 377/2 eight car service. (Looming at the diagrams its possible to get it to four diagrams with dome adjustments).

 

[cle]

I spotted the (3x) 2x5 car 377s in the yard this morning - when will they be in active service?

 

[Class377/5]

I spotted the (3x) 2x5 car 377s in the yard this morning - when will they be in active service?

Take.it.you mean Derby? That the last of the 377/6 order (which can't help out here as they are DC only). Theres five of them at Derby.

The rest are in London either being commissioned or in service (plus two berthed at Horsham for the timetable change next week).

 

[MK Tom]

So will the 377/7s fit in 2A? The RUS calls it 4-car but a fifth 377 carriage would have all passenger doors in the platform, just the driver's door would be out.

Terminating at Bletchley is just pointless. As al green says there are numerous other options.

One thing I would like to see is the insanely low speed limit between Wembley and Shepherd's Bush fixed.

 

[cle]

Take.it.you mean Derby? That the last of the 377/6 order (which can't help out here as they are DC only). Theres five of them at Derby.

The rest are in London either being commissioned or in service (plus two berthed at Horsham for the timetable change next week).

In Battersea.

 

[plastictaffy]

Would the signalling need to be changed to allow for "mufti occupancy" of P2? I dont think it is possible now.

Correct - none of the platforms at MK currently allow permissive working.

Most of the times I have been at MKC in the last few days, the South Croydon has been using platform 2a. I believe that most of the time, that is exactly where it stops. Of course, we all know that 2a was put in for Bedford trains - exactly the reason it only holds 4 carriages, it wasn't anticipated that it might need to be extended for quite a long time.

Another option is, of course, to have the Southern service connecting with a Bletchley starter LM service, especially now that platform 5 can be accessed from the Up Fast and Slow - via Denbigh North and Bletchley Relief 1. That would avoid the need for both platforms at MK to be in use at the same time, and also might even allow Southern to run more than 4 carriages on some of their REALLY busy ones.

 

[PeterY]

It looks like there were some oversights when NR rebuilt MK, especially with platform 2A being only able to take 4 cars.

The southern services from Wembley to Shepherds Bush are painfully slow, to the point I could walk faster . I think this is partly due to the fact that they nearly always pass each other at Sudbury Junction and Clapham Junction.

 

[The Planner]

2A was always known as the Reading bay back in the days of the route mod.