Police eject Passengers off train in Plymouth

[Ianno87]

Busaholic did say "In practice, you can get 90-120 minute gaps...." this is very easy when services from up country can be delayed and often are delayed. XC could do a lot more on the Plymouth - Penzance run. There are 4 daily services on the Far West route. The first originates from Plymouth at 06:28. the next three daily services depart Plymouth at 19:01, 19:49, and 20:50 all of which have travelled down from Scotland. During the day, XC have 13 other services terminating at Plymouth. Surely it's not too difficult for XC to arrange for 3-4 of those services to extend to Penzance during the lunchtime mid afternoon periods? I can feel the knives being drawn as I press the Post Reply button.

If you extended (for example) the 1144 XC arrival at Plymouth from Leeds through to Penzance, then you'd have to cancel the 1225 departure back to Glasgow in its entirety, as there would be no stock to form it. Unless you're aware of any spare Voyagers lying around?

 

[Bookd]

Trains today are likely to be crowded; I see that the SWT line to Exeter is closed due to flooding and a landslide, so GWR are accepting their tickets.

 

[ScouserGirl]

Yes, and there were relief trains to Plymouth on Friday, but the problem was at Plymouth with people going into Cornwall. Hopefully though many of the long distance people will be staying down there longer and won't all be returning on the same day.

That is true, apparently Plymouth train station was dead before.. but its lunch time now so most people will probably start traveling back, I know Thursday was bad as you had the 1903, 1933, 1945 and these were all full and standing but you did have commuters thrown into the mix then!

It is a situation you cannot win, people moan it's unsafe and dangerous and when GWR did something about it people refused to me! It's a very difficult act to please everyone.

 

[Requeststop]

Oh Dear! It's not going too well at Plymouth today. 1C73 - 07:00 Paddington to Penzance 80L at Plymouth this lunchtime.

RRT now saying; This service was cancelled between Plymouth and Penzance due to an unknown problem (XZ).

 

[_ollie_]

Oh Dear! It's not going too well at Plymouth today. 1C73 - 07:00 Paddington to Penzance 80L at Plymouth this lunchtime.

RRT now saying; This service was cancelled between Plymouth and Penzance due to an unknown problem (XZ).

It was delayed by a tree on the line. There was a still a service Plymouth to Penzance which ran as 1Z73: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O81256/2016/03/28/advanced

 

[ScouserGirl]

Oh Dear! It's not going too well at Plymouth today. 1C73 - 07:00 Paddington to Penzance 80L at Plymouth this lunchtime.

RRT now saying; This service was cancelled between Plymouth and Penzance due to an unknown problem (XZ).

there was a tree on the line that's why it got cancelled

 

[irish_rail]

Do we really need to go over this again?

It has already been picked up on numerous times in the Class 800 thread, so if I get it over and done with here, can we not turn this thread into yet another IEP/800/AT300 thread?

The SDO is set up in such a way as to allow opening of the doors on any part of a nine-car or 2x5-car formation. With 2x5-car, the operating procedure will be to stop part of each set on a short platform and open the appropriate doors, with either ETCS balises or GPS-driven kit telling the system which doors can be opened at each station. For full details see pages 45-47 of the technical specification here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

Similarly, the long/short train west of Plymouth question has also been done to death in both the Class 800 and AT300 threads. If someone wants to continue that line of discussion, maybe try those threads rather than this one.

No, its an important issue and needs debating, here. The fact is 5 cars probably will be sufficient for PL to PZ , HOWEVER, if off peak we are going to be seeing single 5 car sets running Plymouth to Padd then there will be serious overcrowding. Off peak is the busiest time of day for most Ply - Padd service, and I can think of hardly any services that would be sufficient as a 5 car train, especially allowing for growth in passenger numbers.

It does seem that other parts of the network are being allowed to cater for future passenger growth (TPE / Northern / Padd- Bristol), yet the south west is assumed to just carry on as it is.

As someone else posted, the Virgin experiment with xc points to the reality that it is mainly going to be 5 coach mini trains London to Plymouth. What I guess will then happen, like XCs Plymouth to Birmingham route, the fares will have to be increased in order to price away demand. Just try searching for decent advance fares Plymouth to Brum!.....

The solution, a cast iron promise to run all Plym - Padd services as 10 car sets or 9 car sets, or just order more 9 car sets and forget about the silly little 5 car ones....

 

[D1009]

No, its an important issue and needs debating, here. The fact is 5 cars probably will be sufficient for PL to PZ , HOWEVER, if off peak we are going to be seeing single 5 car sets running Plymouth to Padd then there will be serious overcrowding. Off peak is the busiest time of day for most Ply - Padd service, and I can think of hardly any services that would be sufficient as a 5 car train, especially allowing for growth in passenger numbers.

It does seem that other parts of the network are being allowed to cater for future passenger growth (TPE / Northern / Padd- Bristol), yet the south west is assumed to just carry on as it is.

As someone else posted, the Virgin experiment with xc points to the reality that it is mainly going to be 5 coach mini trains London to Plymouth. What I guess will then happen, like XCs Plymouth to Birmingham route, the fares will have to be increased in order to price away demand. Just try searching for decent advance fares Plymouth to Brum!.....

The solution, a cast iron promise to run all Plym - Padd services as 10 car sets or 9 car sets, or just order more 9 car sets and forget about the silly little 5 car ones....

You won't get cast iron promises for anything. The plans have been quoted in other threads, and do not involve 5 car units on trains from Plymouth to Paddington.

 

[jimm]

No, its an important issue and needs debating, here. The fact is 5 cars probably will be sufficient for PL to PZ , HOWEVER, if off peak we are going to be seeing single 5 car sets running Plymouth to Padd then there will be serious overcrowding. Off peak is the busiest time of day for most Ply - Padd service, and I can think of hardly any services that would be sufficient as a 5 car train, especially allowing for growth in passenger numbers.

It does seem that other parts of the network are being allowed to cater for future passenger growth (TPE / Northern / Padd- Bristol), yet the south west is assumed to just carry on as it is.

As someone else posted, the Virgin experiment with xc points to the reality that it is mainly going to be 5 coach mini trains London to Plymouth. What I guess will then happen, like XCs Plymouth to Birmingham route, the fares will have to be increased in order to price away demand. Just try searching for decent advance fares Plymouth to Brum!.....

The solution, a cast iron promise to run all Plym - Padd services as 10 car sets or 9 car sets, or just order more 9 car sets and forget about the silly little 5 car ones....

No, it does not need to be debated here. Every single point you mention above has been already discussed in those threads.

Unless, of course, you have actually seen the stock allocations for the December 2018 timetable and can confirm there will be five-car sets on off-peak trains between London and Plymouth and that it really looks like the Operation Princess timetable all over again - which would indeed be worthy of debate.

As for your claim that "the south west is assumed to just carry on as it is", the outline GWR service plan for December 2018, which I'm sure you are aware of, suggests nothing of the sort:

• Standard pattern hourly service from London running non-stop between Reading and Taunton extending hourly to Plymouth and 2 hourly to Penzance. Depending on stock choice trains may split at Plymouth, with half the train continuing to Penzance
•  The core intercity service will be supported by a two hourly stopping service between Paddington and Exeter to provide connectivity to the intermediate stations. Paignton will be served by 3 intercity services each way (Mondays-Fridays)
•  Air-conditioned 90mph Class 158s will replace 75mph Class 150s on Plymouth-Penzance local services, with some extensions to Exeter
•  The combination of local, inter-city and Cross Country services should provide a 2tph service frequency on the Cornish Main Line

This pre-dates the order for AT300s, hence the reference to 'depending on stock choice'.

 

[Busaholic]

20 years ago I was travelling on a weekly basis, on a Thursday usually, from Penzance to Plymouth, sometimes Saltash as well, by train, taking a late morning train and usually returning somewhere between 7 and 9 p.m. from Plymouth. I rarely, if ever, had a delay going, it was the opposite in the evening. Never once in perhaps 30 occasions was I back at Penzance within ten minutes of scheduled time, a few times it was 10-30 minutes, and , on average, it was about 45 minutes over time. Almost always it was due to lateness/cancellation of trains at Plymouth, although on the two occasions I remember trains leaving Plym on time, the first was delayed on the (then) single line section between St Austell and Truro for about fifteen minutes, and the other, a rare on-time Virgin Cross Country, ran out of diesel between those two stations and we were eventually hauled into the bay platform adjacent to the Up platform at Truro about an hour late! The passengers got on to the following, ex-London train, including the driver and guard of the Virgin, who was sat on the next row of seats from me, and declaimed to all and sundry what had happened, adding that Virgin would deny it was the reason, but it was the fourth time to his knowledge this had happened in recent months.

Actually, I can truthfully say it was my experience of all this that made me decide to buy a car again: I was aged about 50 then, and lugging books (my trade) and some shopping home on delayed services quickly lost any romantic feel they may initially have had.

 

[jamesr]

I agree with Busaholic's posting above. I used to love travelling down to Penzance (my family home) by train, but the experience has become so unpleasant that I would prefer to sit in a traffic jam on the M5 in the comfort of my own car than risk another journey crammed in an HST toilet from Paddington as far as Camborne.

There are two simple things that could be done to sort this out.
1) Stop selling cheap tickets on trains which are likely to be very busy.
2) Go back to the days of compulsory reservations on busy trains... Why aren't there any trains in the timetable with the black "R" box at the top of the column any more? Yes, we should have a railway that's mostly turn up and go, but there are other options on almost all of this route.

I don't know whether it's GWR of DfT that have the power to decide this stuff. But if it's DfT, GWR should be banging all kinds of drums to put pressure on them on behalf of it's long suffering customers.

It amazes me how busy the trains are when they're so often so unpleasant to travel on. There must be an enormous latent market (like myself) who would happily switch car to train if the train was reliably quite pleasant to travel on.

 

[yorksrob]

Rather than such nuisances as compulsory reservations and price hikes, I can't believe it's beyond the ken of man to introduce a decent local service between Plymouth/Exeter and Penzance, particularly given the route's role as an important local artery. They must be able tohire some carriages from somewhere.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There's plenty of rolling stock laying around, the greedy private TOC's are just trying to extort as much money as possible by running short trains whilst hiding all of their carriages in depots

They're also deliberately causing havoc with the DFT so that new trains take 6-7 years after tender to be delivered and exposing their passengers to unsafe conditions whilst also running down their existing rolling stock with only essential maintenance.

The infrastructure is also so lightly used that it is in danger of decaying through lack of use and this is said to become another issue. The only solution there is to nationalise British Rail tomorrow and all of the problems will be solved, the infrastructure will be working again, trains will double in size overnight, nobody will be left behind, ticket prices will be slashed by 75% and everyone will get a seat on every train.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

[yorksrob]

There's plenty of rolling stock laying around, the greedy private TOC's are just trying to extort as much money as possible by running short trains whilst hiding all of their carriages in depots

They're also deliberately causing havoc with the DFT so that new trains take 6-7 years after tender to be delivered and exposing their passengers to unsafe conditions whilst also running down their existing rolling stock with only essential maintenance.

The infrastructure is also so lightly used that it is in danger of decaying through lack of use and this is said to become another issue. The only solution there is to nationalise British Rail tomorrow and all of the problems will be solved, the infrastructure will be working again, trains will double in size overnight, nobody will be left behind, ticket prices will be slashed by 75% and everyone will get a seat on every train.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Oh please,

We all know very well that there are companies willing to hire out rolling stock and locomotives to TOC's where necessary, just as anyone who has travelled from Bodmin Parkway to Penzance squashed on a 150 knows that this is a mainline which would warrant a better local service.

Spare us the pound shop diatribe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2) Go back to the days of compulsory reservations on busy trains... Why aren't there any trains in the timetable with the black "R" box at the top of the column any more? Yes, we should have a railway that's mostly turn up and go, but there are other options on almost all of this route.

Minor picky point, but isn't that the white R? The black one (recommended) does still appear.

 

[broadgage]

As improved capacity is still the usual "few years" away, it would seem that all that can be done is to manage demand, or price people off the most crowded trains.
Step one- reduce or eliminate cheap advance fares for trains that are going to be overcrowded.
Step two- stop advertising or promoting services and routes that cant cope with expected passenger numbers. No more adverts for holiday breaks in west country for example.
Step three manage expectations by stating publicly that services will be very busy, and that standing may be unavoidable at holiday times.

After the new trains are introduced, keep some HSTs until the adequacy or otherwise of the new DMUs has been ascertained in actual service, during both commuter rush hours and peak long distance holiday traffic.
If despite the hopes for the DMUs, they are insufficient, then retain the HSTs until some of the new DMUs are significantly lengthened.
(building more complete trains might not be the best solution due to limitations on the number of paths, but lengthening perhaps half of the 5 car units into 9 or even 10 car ones might be viable.)

 

[plymothian]

Just been discussed on Channel 5's The Wright Stuff.
The gist was:

- That's not overcrowded, there are worse trains
- Although they admit GWR ran more trains, they should have put more carriages on this one
- GWR should have known this would happen and have more trains/carriages (see above)
- Pax pay too much for travel, TOCs are greedy
- Although they admit that turn up and go tickets are available, TOCs should be banned from overbooking services
- A comparison was made with SWT when a guard told people to remove luggage from seats as the service would be rammed, and thus SWT were more proactive

 

[455driver]

Oh please,

We all know very well that there are companies willing to hire out rolling stock and locomotives to TOC's where necessary, just as anyone who has travelled from Bodmin Parkway to Penzance squashed on a 150 knows that this is a mainline which would warrant a better local service.

Spare us the pound shop diatribe.

Go on then, work out a viable cost neutral solution then! :roll:

Spare us the 'there is loads of stock available' nonsense, or if you think that there is stock available provide us with a list of coaches and locos, the costs of training the crews up, timetable amendments (allowing for run rounds etc) and lets see how easy it is!

I assume the solution is class 68s!

 

[al78]

It amazes me how busy the trains are when they're so often so unpleasant to travel on.

Because driving is often no better. I prefer long distance journeys by train even when it is crowded as the motorways are more often than not congested and full of tossers who don't have a clue how to drive in a responsible manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because driving is often no better. I prefer long distance journeys by train even when it is crowded as the motorways are more often than not congested and full of tossers who don't have a clue how to drive in a responsible manner.

I find it far easier to enjoy a journey on a busy motorway and humour the idiots than enjoy a train journey where it is overcrowded, personally. I can ignore idiotic behaviour and manage my journey around it, I can't ignore having to stand or having someone's arm jabbed into my ribs.

 

[Bookd]

The excellent book ' The Day of The Holiday Express' analyses operations in the western region on a specific holiday weekend in 1960. Numerous reliefs and specials were run, and demand was met, but pathing problems and delays were horrendous. The difference is that in those days there were many more diversionary routes available, and there were also hundreds of elderly coaches parked up in sidings. These were pressed into service for maybe four or five days a year to be hauled by locomotives diverted from freight duties. In the modern railway it would be financially impossible to keep such a huge reserve for use on a few exceptionally busy days.

 

[miami]

Manchester - Penzance, leaving tomorrow morning, say about 8AM.

Car: 6 hours 34 minutes at the moment according to google, typically 5h40 to 7h10. Call it 8 hours including a couple of breaks. 716 mile round trip, costs between £71 and £322 depending on how much you think a mile costs. Hiring a car and just paying for petrol will cost about £140.

Train: 9 hours. £373.10. Each. If you're willing to wait until 10.30 you can get that price down to £179 return, still more than hiring the car and paying for the petrol

For two people, forget it.

Yes, you can split tickets at Cheltenham or Birmingham and by a two-together railcard and book 73 days in advance, if you know what you're doing, but by default a couple turning up at the station tomorrow morning will be quoted £750 return and may not even get on the train when they have to change at Plymouth. I suspect a taxi will be cheaper.

If they are selling those fares and still can't put on enough trains I think they should shut up shop completely.

 

[Mordac]

Go on then, work out a viable cost neutral solution then! :roll:

Spare us the 'there is loads of stock available' nonsense, or if you think that there is stock available provide us with a list of coaches and locos, the costs of training the crews up, timetable amendments (allowing for run rounds etc) and lets see how easy it is!

I assume the solution is class 68s!

Shoving 442s, no doubt?

 

[455driver]

Blah blah blah carefully chosen slow journey to the back of beyond taking between 5h40 to 7h10 (not very accurate is it :roll blah blah blah

If they are selling those fares and still can't put on enough trains I think they should shut up shop completely.

Is the train journey normally expected to vary by up to 90 minutes and do you consider such a variance acceptable for the car but not the train?

Why dont they put enough trains on?
Is it-
A/ the TOCs dont want to.
B/ they are running everything the DaFT will allow them to run and want extra trains but the DaFT wont/cant give them anymore because XC are not making enough money to pay the premiums the DaFT expect them to pay!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if the TOCs' views on providing extra capacity would change if, away from commuter services, standing passengers were not permitted and therefore money would have to be turned away.

 

[hounddog]

blah blah

If we're discussing the trains to Penzance what example would you choose? Glasgow to Edinburgh?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is the train journey normally expected to vary by up to 90 minutes and do you consider such a variance acceptable for the car but not the train?

Because on the railway each train has its own allocated path, and there are a finite number of paths. You don't get that on the road.

Why dont they put enough trains on?

Because it costs them money. Which is, after all, why two of the five XC HST sets are left parked up in Craigentinny during the week and three of the five are left parked up on Saturdays.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Today trains are run a bit like a ferry service.
It gets to the other end and returns with a 10 minutes to 30 minutes or so turnaround, regardless whether the service is needed at that time.
Gone are the days stock waiting several hours or more before returning at a time there is more demand.
A breakdown in West Cornwall on the down at Camborne, resulted in no trains in either direction for several hours, as there were no trains left at Penzance to run the up services. (The St Ives train did a special trip to Penzance and back as there was a full platform at St Erth)
If bus companies ran their buses that way, there would few spare vehicles to run the rail replacement services!
Can't envisage the rolling stock shortage to improve for many years, thanks to DfT.

 

[broadgage]

Manchester - Penzance, leaving tomorrow morning, say about 8AM.

Car: 6 hours 34 minutes at the moment according to google, typically 5h40 to 7h10. Call it 8 hours including a couple of breaks. 716 mile round trip, costs between £71 and £322 depending on how much you think a mile costs. Hiring a car and just paying for petrol will cost about £140.

Train: 9 hours. £373.10. Each. If you're willing to wait until 10.30 you can get that price down to £179 return, still more than hiring the car and paying for the petrol

For two people, forget it.

Yes, you can split tickets at Cheltenham or Birmingham and by a two-together railcard and book 73 days in advance, if you know what you're doing, but by default a couple turning up at the station tomorrow morning will be quoted £750 return and may not even get on the train when they have to change at Plymouth. I suspect a taxi will be cheaper.

If they are selling those fares and still can't put on enough trains I think they should shut up shop completely.

If most passengers WERE paying those sort of fares, then purchasing or leasing extra stock should be affordable.
The problem is that most passengers are travelling on very much cheaper advance tickets. These were originally intended to fill seats that would otherwise go unused, but now seem to have a become an entitlement on all trains no matter how busy.

As regards the comparison with a taxi, I have done this once from London to the West country. It was more expensive, but not by much, and I was certain of a seat ! on a train this is optional.

By train
Taxi from central London to Paddington £15
Train to Taunton, approx. £160 first open single.
Taxi Taunton to Minehead £55.
Total cost £230 total time, door to door about three and a half hours.

By road throughout.
Chauffer driven executive car £300, time taken about four and a half hours.

The train was quicker and a bit cheaper.
Comfort is very subjective, but the car was probably a bit better than first on the train.
The only time I went by car was in fact on a Maundy Thursday after an unfortunate experience by train the year before.
Generally I much prefer the train, especially the Pullman restaurant, don't get that in a car.

Cheaper options would have been a minicab or steerage on the train.

 

[D1009]

Manchester - Penzance, leaving tomorrow morning, say about 8AM.

Car: typically 5h40 to 7h10.

358 miles in 340 mins by car, in the grockle season? Hmm.