Poor condition of Bakerloo line stock

[JonathanH]

Ultimately the decision depends on funding. The current government has already had to make difficult decisions and it isn't obvious that funding will be made available to replace the Bakerloo Line stock no matter how old it is. There have been suggestions that government departments will be asked to trim budgets further in 2025. Is TfL's financial position more stable to procure new rolling stock now, or is it dependant on money coming from central government? Does funding for 1972 stock replacement mean something else on the railway doesn't get funding?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

When did they get refurbished and have the wooden floors replaced? I can't really remember a time when they didn't look like they do now. I can recall the battered state of the 1959/1962 stock and also remember the D stock pre refurb.


Maybe 40 years ago, but not now. Some of the stations are grotty but the cars are clean.

I think each line has gone through a fair share a battery states since the 1990s, I do not think that the is anything particularly abnormal or worrying about the poor condition of 1972TS, just look at the 1992TS before refurbishment in the late naughties, they looked terrible internally and externally with much graffiti and general grub and dust accumulation! Similar story goes with the 1995TS at around the same time as the latter, they had bubbly floors and also much graffiti! But nothing can be as battered and careworn as the C69/C77 Stock was at the time of the 2012 Olympics! They were considered an embarrassment for for foreigners coming to London, and TFL even applied white vinyls to the heavily damaged paintwork especially the doors. They were likewise just as dirty and neglected internally.

 

[bramling]

The refurbishment of the 1972 stock must have been a good 30 years ago, already.... prior to that, it was easy to distinguish the Mark 1s from the Mark 2s; the latter (which were mostly found on the Jubilee Line after it became a line in its own right, and prior to the introduction of the 1983 stock) had doors that were deep red on the exterior, whereas the Mark 1s were silver all over.

It's extraordinary how very much older than the 1973 stock they feel (and did, before either class was refurbished), given that the age difference between them is fairly minimal.

Worth remembering that the 72 stock was a run-on from the 67 stock, so the design was already a few years old. Also the 73 stock had the benefit of a lot more money spent on its refurbishment, which had a very deep scope.

 

[BRX]

Nearly all of the tube stock is looking pretty ropey at the moment. The relatively newish Victoria line trains are in need of some serious cleaning and re-upholstering.

 

[aaronspence]

I can see this order not being placed all the way until the factory in Goole says we need another order now or we will have to close, and thus the government will put it in to show they are saving the factory.

 

[JonathanH]

I can see this order not being placed all the way until the factory in Goole says we need another order now or we will have to close, and thus the government will put it in to show they are saving the factory.

If Siemens won an order on the mainline railway that could be fulfilled by Goole, it could relieve that pressure. It wouldn't be ideal if that then meant that any Bakerloo Line stock got built abroad.

 

[Snow1964]

Not taking up the options doesn't mean they'd need a new design, it would mean TfL would need to do another tender for stock replacement and that takes time and money even if they planned just to have the 2024 stock or a variant from Siemens.

Although the Bakerloo stock would be virtually identical to Piccadilly line stock (mainly just different colour interior), the options for Central Line are a variation of the design (11 section, 6car with 5 bridge sections, with shorter cars).

A non standard fairly small fleet for the Bakerloo, with potentially its on quirks and faults is probably the least desirable option

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Nearly all of the tube stock is looking pretty ropey at the moment. The relatively newish Victoria line trains are in need of some serious cleaning and re-upholstering.

I do agree, the Victoria Line in general nowadays feels so thick with dust to the point were breathing can be uncomfortable at times, I think although the intensive service pattern is good on a reliability and a convenient standpoint, it does make the stations uncomfortably stuffy. the 2009TS interiors also feel incredibly careworn and tired!

 

[Edvid]

Is TfL's financial position more stable to procure new rolling stock now, or is it dependant on money coming from central government?

Major capital projects are always dependent on central government grants. What TfL ultimately want is a multi-year settlement, like the City Region Sustainable Transport Settlements that combined authorities receive.

 

[Thirteen]

Ultimately the decision depends on funding. The current government has already had to make difficult decisions and it isn't obvious that funding will be made available to replace the Bakerloo Line stock no matter how old it is. There have been suggestions that government departments will be asked to trim budgets further in 2025. Is TfL's financial position more stable to procure new rolling stock now, or is it dependant on money coming from central government? Does funding for 1972 stock replacement mean something else on the railway doesn't get funding?

The funding for 2024/25 has allowed for the trams replacement to occur so I would guess that we might see something happen for Phase 2 of the Spending Review for the Bakerloo Line. The fact it's mentioned in the letter from the DfT to the Mayor makes me think it's likely to happen.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

in the letter from the DfT to the Mayor makes me think it's likely to happen.

Different SoS now though.

 

[GFE]

I don't quite understand the accountants/auditors handle these short term settlements (ie the "assured" funding is less than the project duration/spend profile).
For instance the Tram, DLR & Picc line train projects are liable to go on a few years longer than the currently confirmed government support.
TFL seemed also to have maxed out its borrowing allowance many years ago & not sure it has cleared any of it yet.
Perhaps the only way forward is the lease type deal? (preferably direct with the manufacturer rather than a ROSCO)

 

[Thirteen]

Different SoS now though.

True but Heidi Alexander has an existing relationship with the Mayor of London due to her previous role as Deputy Mayor for Transport

I don't quite understand the accountants/auditors handle these short term settlements (ie the "assured" funding is less than the project duration/spend profile).
For instance the Tram, DLR & Picc line train projects are liable to go on a few years longer than the currently confirmed government support.
TFL seemed also to have maxed out its borrowing allowance many years ago & not sure it has cleared any of it yet.
Perhaps the only way forward is the lease type deal? (preferably direct with the manufacturer rather than a ROSCO)

The short term deals from the previous Government was to make the Mayor look bad which didn't work, the current deal by this Government was always expected to be a one year deal but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a long term deal in the Phase 2 Spending Review.

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a long term deal in the Phase 2 Spending Review.

That long term deal may well be less than London Underground want though, given the continued revenue support needed by the mainline railway and the general messaging of spending departments being asked to identify further savings.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Nearly all of the tube stock is looking pretty ropey at the moment. The relatively newish Victoria line trains are in need of some serious cleaning and re-upholstering.

Due to medical issues - I have been away from the tube for about 8 months - but riding today on the Northern and Victoria line I was quite struck by the interior ambience - light vandalism , but both ines in serious need of some deep cleaning , not what it was certainly.

For a miserable and wet Sunday , loadings were excellent - stood on 2 out of 4 journeys

 

[Mikey C]

True but Heidi Alexander has an existing relationship with the Mayor of London due to her previous role as Deputy Mayor for Transport


The short term deals from the previous Government was to make the Mayor look bad which didn't work, the current deal by this Government was always expected to be a one year deal but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a long term deal in the Phase 2 Spending Review.

But then if I was a government, and saw the Mayor of London (of a rival party) freezing fares year after year, that's hardly an encouragement to provide more generous and long term funding. Especially when the Mayor is hailing his fares freezes as one of his achievements in power.

It's notable that this year the new government has told the Mayor to put up tube fares, if he wants government money for investment.

 

[Thirteen]

But then if I was a government, and saw the Mayor of London (of a rival party) freezing fares year after year, that's hardly an encouragement to provide more generous and long term funding. Especially when the Mayor is hailing his fares freezes as one of his achievements in power.

It's notable that this year the new government has told the Mayor to put up tube fares, if he wants government money for investment.

If we get a non Labour Mayor in 2028 which I admit is unlikely, would the Labour Government be hostile like the 2019-2024 Conservative Government to Sadiq Khan.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would say the possibility of a change of decor in the mayor's office from red to either blue, yellow or green is a strong possibility next time round. A bit like the council tax freeze in Scotland, the fares freeze on tfl was a good idea initially that has gone on too long to the point where passengers are starting to notice it in terms of what the tabloid press would call managed decline and others would call squeezing the resources and failure to invest. What money has become available has been swallowed by poor industrial relations and whoever takes over next time probably needs to take a damn good hard look at industrial relations across the whole system and see if there's anything that can be done long-term to improve these.

The pork edition of rolling stock on The bakerloo and other routes is one strong piece of evidence of this, there's staffing issues at stations which has been talked about in other conversations elsewhere and other things such as more lift and escalator faults and other little bits and pieces that just don't work properly and might not be noticed immediately by each individual passenger, but start to build up into a bigger and not overly encouraging picture. I'm aware we're off topic for this thread though, so perhaps it might be worth discussing the wider issues on a new one?

 

[Snow1964]

I don't quite understand the accountants/auditors handle these short term settlements (ie the "assured" funding is less than the project duration/spend profile).
For instance the Tram, DLR & Picc line train projects are liable to go on a few years longer than the currently confirmed government support.
TFL seemed also to have maxed out its borrowing allowance many years ago & not sure it has cleared any of it yet.
Perhaps the only way forward is the lease type deal? (preferably direct with the manufacturer rather than a ROSCO)

If you read the TfL Board Programme and Investment Committee reports, you will see there are two figures, an authorised spend for the project, and a budgeted figure for this year.

So when the new trains are authorised, Government agrees the capital contribution, but usually in form X in financial year 24-25, Y in 25-26, Z in 26-27 etc

But what you don't see (because it is never in the public part of papers) is if new trains do not happen, then it will cost extra £A in 24-25, B in 25-26 etc to patch up and specially order parts to keep existing fleet still running. But this ongoing cost has to be found from the ongoing operational budget (instead of separate capital budget)

At some stage the whole life cost over next 35-40 years (nominal life of train) is cheaper if you start replacement now, rather than a date in the future. It is either blatantly obvious from numbers (in which case investment ought to happen quickly), or it is more marginal (and those in power tend to faff about and dither whilst trying to validate costings, often making troublesome changes to save money short term, and extending the process by years so doesn't happen at optimal financial time).

 

[contrex]

Whilst London has its problems, the communist press will doubtless have its own agenda to push.

Do you mean the Morning Star?

 

[stadler]

Yesterday i spotted six different Bakerloo Line 1972 Stock trains within a space of about thirty minutes that all had lots of graffiti on them. I have never seen this many trains with graffiti before. The last couple months seems to have gotten particularly bad but this is the most i have ever seen. It almost seems like TFL have just suddenly decided to give up with cleaning graffiti off the trains.

 

[Mawkie]

Yesterday i spotted six different Bakerloo Line 1972 Stock trains within a space of about thirty minutes that all had lots of graffiti on them. I have never seen this many trains with graffiti before. The last couple months seems to have gotten particularly bad but this is the most i have ever seen. It almost seems like TFL have just suddenly decided to give up with cleaning graffiti off the trains.

Was it acid etching? That is quite difficult to deal with (unlike regular spray paint) and it may not be worth their while attending to it, just for the little darlings to do it again.

(On the Pic, there has been a recent spate of spray paint being used in Rayners Lane sidings - for those that know that move, the turnaround time can be the time it takes to walk back through the train - and yet they emerge from the bushes, across live rails and spray the whole (now) end carriage before the train leaves the sidings. Madness jumping across the Met line in the dark in my opinion.)

 

[announcements]

Yesterday i spotted six different Bakerloo Line 1972 Stock trains within a space of about thirty minutes that all had lots of graffiti on them. I have never seen this many trains with graffiti before. The last couple months seems to have gotten particularly bad but this is the most i have ever seen. It almost seems like TFL have just suddenly decided to give up with cleaning graffiti off the trains.

Yes I was on a graffiti-ridden one yesterday. The J door in the passenger saloon was absolutely covered, wish I'd have taken a photo!

 

[philosopher]

Ultimately the decision depends on funding. The current government has already had to make difficult decisions and it isn't obvious that funding will be made available to replace the Bakerloo Line stock no matter how old it is. There have been suggestions that government departments will be asked to trim budgets further in 2025. Is TfL's financial position more stable to procure new rolling stock now, or is it dependant on money coming from central government? Does funding for 1972 stock replacement mean something else on the railway doesn't get funding?

To keep the line running, TfL are going to have buy new stock eventually as there is only so long you can keep old stock running. The alternative would be to mothball the line which, in addition to being very disruptive to passengers, could be very embarrassing to both TfL and Central government. Imagine the negative headlines about London having to close a tube line because it can’t afford new trains.

 

[anthony263]

To keep the line running, TfL are going to have buy new stock eventually as there is only so long you can keep old stock running. The alternative would be to mothball the line which, in addition to being very disruptive to passengers, could be very embarrassing to both TfL and Central government. Imagine the negative headlines about London having to close a tube line because it can’t afford new trains.

I suspect spring statement we'll see tfw get go ahead to buy the bare number of units to replace the 72 stock without room for expansion sadly

 

[sh24]

My last 2 rides

Untitled by Sh24pics, on Flickr

by Sh24pics, on Flickr

2 photos both showing graffiti tags inside LU 1972 stock

 

[ScottGallagher]

My last 2 rides

Untitled by Sh24pics, on Flickr

by Sh24pics, on Flickr

2 photos both showing graffiti tags inside LU 1972 stock

Do the London Overground trains on the same line get this treatment? Assuming that most of this trashing takes place North of Queens Park?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

It was quite interesting watching a well known British you tuber boarding a high speed train in China telling a local he was from London and the Chinese guy responding with a stabbing motion just shouting dangerous.

People in the UK have no idea how internationally London and the countries status has fallen. This will hit tourism hard in time which London is reliant

The UK is in rapid decline from all angles and unfortunately the state of the 72 stock is the least of our probs.
It’s pretty straight forward to rectify more Police stiffer sentences as always yet the idiots in charge seem to want to follow the disastrous US liberal system which is a disaster

Since when was the US criminal justice system something to be emulated? The Nordics are safe because their criminal justice systems are liberal and focus on rehabilitation.

 

[Chriso]

Since when was the US criminal justice system something to be emulated? The Nordics are safe because their criminal justice systems are liberal and focus on rehabilitation.

As demonstrated in Sweden today

Do the London Overground trains on the same line get this treatment? Assuming that most of this trashing takes place North of Queens Park?

The Overground 710/3s which use the same area north of Queens Park are fine

The tube trains off peak are very lightly loaded north of Queens Park and with the separated carriages all kinds of craziness can be achieved in next to no time.

The last few I have been on even the floors were tagged!!!!

 

[renegademaster]

Bakerloo is one of the few parts of TfL you can get a peak time carriage by yourself , used to happen to me at Maida Vale all the time if you got on the carriage furthest from the stairs