Poor condition of Bakerloo line stock

[yorksrob]

It was quite interesting watching a well known British you tuber boarding a high speed train in China telling a local he was from London and the Chinese guy responding with a stabbing motion just shouting dangerous.

People in the UK have no idea how internationally London and the countries status has fallen. This will hit tourism hard in time which London is reliant

The UK is in rapid decline from all angles and unfortunately the state of the 72 stock is the least of our probs.
It’s pretty straight forward to rectify more Police stiffer sentences as always yet the idiots in charge seem to want to follow the disastrous US liberal system which is a disaster

Whilst London has its problems, the communist press will doubtless have its own agenda to push.

 

[GatwickDepress]

It was quite interesting watching a well known British you tuber boarding a high speed train in China telling a local he was from London and the Chinese guy responding with a stabbing motion just shouting dangerous.

People in the UK have no idea how internationally London and the countries status has fallen. This will hit tourism hard in time which London is reliant

The UK is in rapid decline from all angles and unfortunately the state of the 72 stock is the least of our probs.
It’s pretty straight forward to rectify more Police stiffer sentences as always yet the idiots in charge seem to want to follow the disastrous US liberal system which is a disaster

Stiffer sentences mean nothing if you don't have anywhere to put them or no judges to hear the case, which is why we're currently looking at four year backlogs and reductions in minimum time served.

Prison overcrowding has been a recurring issue for almost forty years, the courts have been backed up for decades with COVID only accelerating these issues, and the police are under-resourced and stretched too thin. Then there's the belief that prison itself can be criminogenic and increase recidivism, so certain offences potentially shouldn't result in prison time - possession of cannabis, for example.

It's the failure of multiple parties across multiple decades, especially when we've been in austerity mode for almost twenty years, but nobody wants to bear the significant burden of fixing it. If there was an easy solution, it would have been done.

But this is pretty off-topic from the poor state of the Bakerloo line anyway.

 

[Ladder23]

I'm only just catching up with the latest news and gossip regard the new units going to the Piccadilly line. It made me think, why isn’t the Bakerloo line being prioritised as the stock is much older?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm only just catching up with the latest news and gossip regard the new units going to the Piccadilly line. It made me think, why isn’t the Bakerloo line being prioritised as the stock is much older?

Only 2 or 3 years older.

I imagine the Piccadilly gets priority because it has both double the passengers and serves Heathrow Airport.

TfL can presently only fund new stock for the Picc, but there is a follow-on option for more trains which would replace the '72 stock on the Bakerloo.

 

[Ladder23]

Only 2 or 3 years older.

I imagine the Piccadilly gets priority because it has both double the passengers and serves Heathrow Airport.

TfL can presently only fund new stock for the Picc, but there is a follow-on option for more trains which would replace the '72 stock on the Bakerloo.

I'd agree with that!

Thought they were older than that, thanks for letting us know!

 

[hexagon789]

Thought they were older than that,

The 1972 stock (used on the Bakerloo) was built 1972-74

The 1973 stock (used on the Piccadilly) was built 1974-77.

So the oldest '72 stock is at most 5 years older than the youngest '73 stock, but equally some of each type will be more-or-less the same age.

Mechanically they are fairly similar as well.

 

[Ladder23]

The 1972 stock (used on the Bakerloo) was built 1972-74

The 1973 stock (used on the Piccadilly) was built 1974-77.

So the oldest '72 stock is at most 5 years older than the youngest '73 stock, but equally some of each type will be more-or-less the same age.

Mechanically they are fairly similar as well.

Thanks so much for clearing that up, saved me searching!

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks so much for clearing that up, saved me searching!

No problem

 

[cle]

I had a follow on question - as it relates to the same stock.

What are the rough acceleration / deceleration benefits of the new stock? Both for Piccadilly and for Bakerloo, as I’m sure has been mapped out.

Eg what would the journey time difference be from Heathrow to Green Park, or Queens Park to Waterloo?

Both have a lot of close stops in their central sections so I’d expect (hope!) for some decent improvements… will be such a game changer for both.

 

[Recessio]

The Picadilly needs the increased capacity from the newer trains (and eventually the newer signalling) more desperately than the Bakerloo does. Given the two rolling stock are broadly similar, it therefore makes sense to prioritise replacing the Picadilly stock first to increase overall network capacity quicker.

 

[Thirteen]

The Picadilly needs the increased capacity from the newer trains (and eventually the newer signalling) more desperately than the Bakerloo does. Given the two rolling stock are broadly similar, it therefore makes sense to prioritise replacing the Picadilly stock first to increase overall network capacity quicker.

The Piccadilly Line is also a far more intense service than the Bakerloo Line as well.

I do think when the 2024 stock is introduced on the Bakerloo, it'll be a huge upgrade.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 1972 stock (used on the Bakerloo) was built 1972-74

The 1973 stock (used on the Piccadilly) was built 1974-77.

So the oldest '72 stock is at most 5 years older than the youngest '73 stock, but equally some of each type will be more-or-less the same age.

Mechanically they are fairly similar as well.

Moreover the 1973 stock included some innovations, whilst the 1972 Mark 2 stock, as the "Mark 2" implies, was a follow-on order from an earlier design which had already had the bugs ironned out - indeed give or take the fancy ATO equipment, the design was also basically the same as the 1967 stock on the Victoria Line.

 

[anthony263]

I can see tfl being given funding to order a batch of 2024 stock or rather 2025/2026 stock to replace the 1972 stock

 

[vuzzeho]

I can see tfl being given funding to order a batch of 2024 stock or rather 2025/2026 stock to replace the 1972 stock

With the extension to Lewisham (which I hope is approved) I expect it'll happen. Isn't the new SoS for Transport formerly TfL?

 

[Mikey C]

With the extension to Lewisham (which I hope is approved) I expect it'll happen. Isn't the new SoS for Transport formerly TfL?

The Bakerloo line can't wait until the extension is built though, the 72s are a museum piece! And the Goole factory will need follow on work in a couple of years when the 2024 stock contract is complete too...

 

[cle]

I believe there are options - the new/current Bakerloo crop is a Picc option - and so if the extension went ahead, that would be factored in.

There was also talk of many more Picc TPH if that was resignalled - so I’d expect the assembly line to stay open there.

And hopefully this stock is suitable for other lines upcoming after these too, standardise somewhat.

 

[Snow1964]

I haven't got time to search for the exact numbers, but new stock has a capacity about 11% higher than existing Piccadilly stock, and the increase from 24 to 27tph adds another 12% so get about 22% capacity increase.

If the full resignalling and higher frequency ever happens will be about 60% up on today.

The Bakerloo doesn't have same capacity problems, so was put second in the queue. Of course it could be that Bakerloo gets next batch (if authorised) then more for Piccadilly and more for Lewisham extension, or even last few Piccadilly batch reallocated to Bakerloo (all sort of possibilities exist with follow on orders).

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Isn't the new SoS for Transport formerly TfL?

In a sense, yes. She was the Deputy Mayor for Transport under Khan prior to quitting to focus on becoming an MP. This resulted in her being on a fair few TfL Boards incl Elizabeth line, which she remained on until very recently.

 

[Thirteen]

TfL wanted a RVAR exemption for the 1972 stock until 2029 but I can't remember if it was approved or not. It has become crucial to get funding for replacement as they're the oldest rolling stock in the UK.

 

[Edvid]

TfL wanted a RVAR exemption for the 1972 stock until 2029 but I can't remember if it was approved or not.

A decision on that matter is still pending.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I went on the Bakerloo and other tube lines over the christmas season, and none of it seemed much different from how its been over the past three decades or so.

The Bakerloo train had a bit of graffiti on the inside, but nothing like those films in New York from the 1980's.

 

[Bikeman78]

Utterly pedantic, but they weren't old in the 1970s...

When did they get refurbished and have the wooden floors replaced? I can't really remember a time when they didn't look like they do now. I can recall the battered state of the 1959/1962 stock and also remember the D stock pre refurb.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

Reminds me of pictures I see of mta ny subway

Maybe 40 years ago, but not now. Some of the stations are grotty but the cars are clean.

 

[Mikey C]

When did they get refurbished and have the wooden floors replaced? I can't really remember a time when they didn't look like they do now. I can recall the battered state of the 1959/1962 stock and also remember the D stock pre refurb.

In the early 90s, so over 30 years ago.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The refurbishment of the 1972 stock must have been a good 30 years ago, already.... prior to that, it was easy to distinguish the Mark 1s from the Mark 2s; the latter (which were mostly found on the Jubilee Line after it became a line in its own right, and prior to the introduction of the 1983 stock) had doors that were deep red on the exterior, whereas the Mark 1s were silver all over.

It's extraordinary how very much older than the 1973 stock they feel (and did, before either class was refurbished), given that the age difference between them is fairly minimal.

 

[Mikey C]

The refurbishment of the 1972 stock must have been a good 30 years ago, already.... prior to that, it was easy to distinguish the Mark 1s from the Mark 2s; the latter (which were mostly found on the Jubilee Line after it became a line in its own right, and prior to the introduction of the 1983 stock) had doors that were deep red on the exterior, whereas the Mark 1s were silver all over.

It's extraordinary how very much older than the 1973 stock they feel (and did, before either class was refurbished), given that the age difference between them is fairly minimal.

As well as being a newer design, the 73 also befitted from a later and more comprehensive refurbishment programme, including modern features like the end windows and the destination displays inside the cars (as per the 95 and 96 style).

 

[Snow1964]

TfL wanted a RVAR exemption for the 1972 stock until 2029 but I can't remember if it was approved or not.

Nothing has been announced, and previous exemption (dating from 2019) had some exemptions which were time limited to 1st January 2024.

Don't know if these were fixed by modification, or if TfL has been operating non compliant stock on Bakerloo without exemption for over a year.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60047cacd3bf7f33b78097d5/rail-vehicle-accessibility-exemption-order-bakerloo-line.pdf

 

[MaidaVale]

There was also talk of many more Picc TPH if that was resignalled

I'd give a near zero chance of the Picc being re-signalled before the end of the decade, and a very low chance even through as far as 2035.

Hundreds and hundreds of brand new co-acting signals have just been installed (and are still being installed) to aid sighting from the 24 stock cabs, and the PICU (admittedly standing for Piccadilly Interim Control Upgrade) signalling control system plus the control room to go along with it only started active use a mere 5 years ago.

There simply isn't the money, and in the grand scheme of things, new Bakerloo stock (and probably extension) would and should take priority, even in spite of our pretty rough signalling situation on the Picc with pretty regular points failures.

 

[Nym]

As well as being a newer design, the 73 also befitted from a later and more comprehensive refurbishment programme, including modern features like the end windows and the destination displays inside the cars (as per the 95 and 96 style).

The 1973TS was also completely re-wired during refurb and had a lot of other very deep electrical work done on the Control and Auxiliary side that the 1972TS wasn't afforded.

 

[Meerkat]

I know one shouldn't expect logic with government decisions (particularly if they involve the DfT) but there is no alternative to taking up the option for the Bakerloo stock is there? The current trains can't go on forever, they are now older than anything in the north so that chip is less relevant, and there must be a risk of a systemic failure or regulatory issue (how long can they ignore millions of people breathing in all that brake dust etc?!).
Anything else would have to be designed from near scratch so its hard to see it being cheaper (and certainly not quicker to delivery) than the Siemens offer.
And not ordering will likely kill the factory unless they give them another order.

 

[Thirteen]

I know one shouldn't expect logic with government decisions (particularly if they involve the DfT) but there is no alternative to taking up the option for the Bakerloo stock is there? The current trains can't go on forever, they are now older than anything in the north so that chip is less relevant, and there must be a risk of a systemic failure or regulatory issue (how long can they ignore millions of people breathing in all that brake dust etc?!).
Anything else would have to be designed from near scratch so its hard to see it being cheaper (and certainly not quicker to delivery) than the Siemens offer.
And not ordering will likely kill the factory unless they give them another order.

Not taking up the options doesn't mean they'd need a new design, it would mean TfL would need to do another tender for stock replacement and that takes time and money even if they planned just to have the 2024 stock or a variant from Siemens.

I don't think the Siemens factory would have to close if TfL doesn't take the option since it's going to use for future rolling stock on the National Rail network. At worse, it'll be mothballed.