Poor stock cascades

[pemma]

Which stock cascade do you think is the worse since privitasition?

 

[bluenoxid]

EMT/LM split that removed class 170's off the Liverpool - Norwich runs and gave commuter routes in Birmingham a mixture of gangwayed and non gangwayed units.

 

[Failed Unit]

Depends on your point of view.

For example many people in the west would argue losing the 158's for the pacers wasn't good but northern & Scotrail passengers thinking the opposite.

To me moving the 442's off SWT area. In fact the whole Saga, 442's indirectly replaced by 458's. So some Portsmouth passengers now get suburban units which are unsuitable for them. Gatwick express passeners get a unit that is not really designed for airport travel and we get many some modern trains that are of no use.

I guess in the perfect world the 460's and 458's would be operating on the Brighton mainline, with daigramming ensuring that the 460's were not operating towards London in the peak. 12 car 458's on Brighton - London?

Others that won't make people happy are the 313's to southern, but what else could they really have used?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

EMT/LM split that removed class 170's off the Liverpool - Norwich runs and gave commuter routes in Birmingham a mixture of gangwayed and non gangwayed units.

Hasn't this always been the case? The 150/1's have no gangways and it was rare to see 2x 150/2's (did often see a 150/1 coupled to a 150/2). The 158's and 156's were not often used on the commuter routes.

 

[Lampshade]

Not a cascade but Northern stealing NH's 158s and allocating them to Neville Hill.

 

[pemma]

I think the worse one would have to mean that overall there are more disadvantages than advantages.

The Northern 158 cascade from West to East is a bit like Central Trains' 170s all going to London Midland and CrossCountry and none to EMT, but more secretive and without as serious concequences.

 

[tbtc]

If I can look at things another way (and not disrupt this thread), the worst example I could think of was a good cascade that didn't happen - the swap of Central Trains 156s for Scotrail 158s (back when National Express ran both).

This would have given both TOCs a large fleet of one Sprinter type best suited to their oeprations. Scotrail were using long distance 158s on things like the Fife Circle and the Bathgate line, whilst Central were using "middle distance" 156s on long routes like Lincoln - Aberyswyth/ Chester.

AFAIK the only reason it didn't happen was Scottish politicians being unhappy (since the 158s had been refurbished more recently)

 

[Failed Unit]

AFAIK the only reason it didn't happen was Scottish politicians being unhappy (since the 158s had been refurbished more recently)

I think it was more to do with they funded the refurbishment, but I agree that it is probably the best example of a should of happened but didn't!

Another one that the people in Wales may think is the Northern Pacer - 150/2 swap done while national express were in charge of the Valleys. I am sure the passengers loved seeing the 150/2's get replaced by pacers!

 

[pemma]

But then you could say sending all the South West 142s up north directly caused the 142 cascade to Cardiff as there finished up being too many 142s up north.

I think Wales have been lucky since. When North Wales Coast was transferred to Wales and Borders they got all the FNW 175s, when they should have got some 142s to run on services like Crewe-Chester, Borderlands and Conwy Valley, rather than leaving them all in Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

I think it was more to do with they funded the refurbishment

Apologies - its going back a while for my memory!

Most recent cascades make at least some sense, as one TOC is definately getting a better deal (even if it means another receives Pacers), but the 156/158 would have been what managers call "win-win" if it had happened

The worst one in my lifetime was when British Rail got rid of the class 27s from Dundee to Edinburgh and replaced them with knackered DMUs (126s?)

 

[asylumxl]

Definetly the 442s for 460. Having ridden both on the same day, I can honestly say I much prefer the 460s.

 

[90019]

442s for 460s by far.

There seems to be absolutely no logic there whatsoever (Then again, it's the railway, so it's not exactly a surprise), replacing specific airport trains with older ones that were not designed as airport trains.
I do wonder who it was that thought it would be a good idea, though.

 

[Failed Unit]

442s for 460s by far.

There seems to be absolutely no logic there whatsoever (Then again, it's the railway, so it's not exactly a surprise), replacing specific airport trains with older ones that were not designed as airport trains.
I do wonder who it was that thought it would be a good idea, though.

I can see why they are doing it, a 460 on a peak hour Brighton - London service would seriously overcrowd (yes we can debate about getting rid of the Gatwick express in the first place). But I agree send the 442's back to SWT and bring the 458's over instead! Maybe break them up to make the 460's longer rather than the other way around.

 

[Aictos]

442s being taken off the Portsmouth route and put on the Gatwick Express route.

170s taken off the Liverpool to Norwich route and replaced with 158s.

 

[Failed Unit]

170s taken off the Liverpool to Norwich route and replaced with 158s.

Again depends on how you look at it, I am baised as I prefer the 158. But it is going to work out for the best, as EMT will be operating most services as 4 car as a 4 car 158 is better than a 4 car 170 because of the corridor connection.

However as you mention this route, the cascade which resulted in the centre cars of the ex-TPE units getting transferred to Northern must rank highly. Yes the net number of units remained the same, but York - Bradford - Blackpool isn't as heavily loaded as Nottingham - Liverpool so it was total madness!

 

[pemma]

Again depends on how you look at it, I am baised as I prefer the 158. But it is going to work out for the best, as EMT will be operating most services as 4 car as a 4 car 158 is better than a 4 car 170 because of the corridor connection.

Disadvantages being CT sometimes used 3 car 170s attached to 2 car 170s. 170s also have the 10mph extra speed which is useful on a route where delays are frequent, like Liverpool to Norwich. The door layout on the 170s is also better for the peak services through Warrington.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Also the only real disadvantage the 158s have compared to 170s is their 90mph top speed, but beyond a few sections, most of the route is 90mph or less, in fact a lot of the route isn't even 90mph. 158s are also long distance units, wheras the 170s are designed as a compromise long distance/suburban unit. 170s with their 1/3, 2/3 doors are better suited to Birmingham suburban work than 158s would be. Add this to the previously mentioned corridor connection argument, and I think beyond "but their old!!!" it's hard to justify anything but the current arrangement.

 

[Aictos]

How about the 180s moving from the Oxford/Hereford route, they were ideal for that route with HSTs left for Bristol, Exeter, Penzance and Plymouth.

 

[Fincra5]

I can see why they are doing it, a 460 on a peak hour Brighton - London service would seriously overcrowd (yes we can debate about getting rid of the Gatwick express in the first place). But I agree send the 442's back to SWT and bring the 458's over instead! Maybe break them up to make the 460's longer rather than the other way around.

I quite like having the 442s with Southern. Admittidly it makes no sence but they are very comfortable, i look foward to them doing some off-peak express services soon .

Keeps the 458's away from Southern! They are awful.

 

[pemma]

170s with their 1/3, 2/3 doors are better suited to Birmingham suburban work than 158s would be.

Or they could use 150s on surburban routes rather than 170s like most operators do (Scotrail being the only other exceptation.)

 

[ChrisCooper]

They already had the entire Central fleet of 150s though. When it came to the 156s and 158s though, EMT have far more routes suited to those types than LM do. LM got the Birmingham suburban part of the CT Network, with the exception of the Birmingham to Liverpool service and Trent Valley stoppers, but they now have 350s. EMT got the bulk of the long distance part of the CT Network, other than Nottingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Stansted which went to XC. The only real Suburban route EMT runs is the Robin Hood line. All others are fairly long distance. It's why EMT should be getting 156s from Northern instead of 150s, as they don't really have any 150 suitable routes (although CT have used them to Lincoln and Skegness). Remember that the 158s were intended for routes like Liverpool to Norwich and Birmingham to Stansted. Turbostars were more than anything ordered to replace the last Slammers around Birmingham, and also should have kept 156s off Norwich and Stansted (and 150s of Lincoln and Skegness) but in practice anything could run anywhere.

 

[pemma]

Turbostars were more than anything ordered to replace the last Slammers around Birmingham, and also should have kept 156s off Norwich and Stansted (and 150s of Lincoln and Skegness) but in practice anything could run anywhere.

Weren't the 170/6s specifically ordered for Liverpool-Norwich? The 170s cascaded from Midland Mainline were also intended for the same purpose.

When Liverpool-Stansted Airport was spilt up and Liverpool-Birmingham became 350 operation it increased 170 usage on other "City Link" services due to more becoming available.

 

[MCR247]

In theory, in reality you just got loads of Nottingham - Worksop/Lincoln/Mansfield/Matlock/Skeggy/Crewe trains formed of 170s

 

[Lampshade]

It's why EMT should be getting 156s from Northern instead of 150s, as they don't really have any 150 suitable routes (although CT have used them to Lincoln and Skegness).

I thought EMT were getting 6 156s from Northern who will get 8 150s from LooRoll.

 

[LE Greys]

The worst cascade mistake, I think, was not allowing Scotrail to swap the Inverness 158s for some of Central's 156s. Apart from being unable to use their 90 mph top speed, the 158s have several problems up there. I don't think they're as comfortable, they often seem to have ride problems at around 60 mph and their hill-climbing is not quite as good. Basically, it's a compromise design built for the Midlands and Yorkshire, and doesn't quite suit the Highlands.

 

[fgwrich]

I thought EMT were getting 6 156s from Northern who will get 8 150s from LooRoll.

Nope.

First Great Western will get the remaining ex LOROL 150s along with several ex LM units, Northern will then also get the remaining ex LM units which will then allow the 4 156s to be released to EMT...

 

[lm321412]

I don't see all the fuss about EMT not getting the 170 units. There not as good as the 158s for a long distance service which links the east with the west. Class 170s door layout is for shorter distance routes and I feel there suited quite well to the Birmingham - Rugeley Trent Valley, Hereford & Shrewsbury trains. The 158s wouldn't really fit onto these local services due to their slow doors, lower speeds and door layouts.

Of course your always going to get the commuters between Liverpool & Manchester moaning about overcrowding with 158s being used, but at the end of the day its a Semi-Fast service which isn't really supposed to have masses of commuters travelling on it!

 

[poshbakerloo]

The worst one is/was the proposal for Northern to ditch the 323s for 319s!

 

[MCR247]

I don't see all the fuss about EMT not getting the 170 units. There not as good as the 158s for a long distance service which links the east with the west. Class 170s door layout is for shorter distance routes and I feel there suited quite well to the Birmingham - Rugeley Trent Valley, Hereford & Shrewsbury trains. The 158s wouldn't really fit onto these local services due to their slow doors, lower speeds and door layouts.

Of course your always going to get the commuters between Liverpool & Manchester moaning about overcrowding with 158s being used, but at the end of the day its a Semi-Fast service which isn't really supposed to have masses of commuters travelling on it!

but that route gets a lot of standing passengers and the 1/3 & 2/3 door layout is perfect for that as it is more open and you can stand all the way through the carriage

 

[GNERman]

Not a cascade but Northern stealing NH's 158s and allocating them to Neville Hill.

It is much better that Neville Hil gained Newton Heath's class 158 fleet, in return for their class 156 fleet. This creates uniformed fleets which are easier to maintain at depots.

The ex FNW class 158's at Newton Heath were mainly used by TPE for the WCML services alongside the class 175's. These routes, eg Windermere, made good use of the 90mph top speed of the 158.

Once these routes were taken over by the 185, was there any other routes which the 158's would have been suited to in the Manchester area?

This is why they were moved to Neville Hill. There are much more routes based around Leeds that the 158's are suited for.

The Settle-Carlisle is perfect for the Express Sprinters as they are comfortable for the long journey. York-Blackpool is also a very long route. Leeds-Nottingham is also very well suited.

 

[tbtc]

Once these routes were taken over by the 185, was there any other routes which the 158's would have been suited to in the Manchester area?

Manchester Airport - Liverpool?

Maybe the Blackpool service (once the 180s go)?

And both of those may be EMUs in a few years anyway.

I agree with what you're saying though; Leeds - Nottingham needs something suited to a two hour journey, whereas most of the Northern work west of the Pennines is pretty slow/ short (so better suited to 150s and 156s)