Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[delticdave]

Yes the power to weight ratio is likely to be at current DMU levels - enough to maintain 60 to 70mph and probably reasonable acceleration..but nowhere near Class 755 levels of performance.

Chalk & cheese comparison? The Flirts are designed / built as bi-modes, whereas the 769's were not, the new trains are lighter
& with seriously high power-weight ratios, as we now know..
The 755/3xx with only two 480kW engines will out-perform any of Anglias branch-line dmus whereas the 755/4xx with twice the installed power but only 1 extra trailer have EMU performance levels.
It will be interesting to sample either variant when they are running as EMU's, with 2600kW available the 0-60 & 90 mph times might quickest in the UK.

Apart from wanting to utilize an existing asset, rather than buy new trains, I don't really understand the why the 769 project went beyond the concept stage.
If the real costs for this project were ever to be made public, I wonder if buying / leasing a new purpose-built bi-mode design would have been found to be more cost-effective?

 

[samuelmorris]

If the real costs for this project were ever to be made public, I wonder if buying / leasing a new purpose-built bi-mode design would have been found to be more cost-effective?

Initially no, but in hindsight with all the delays they've had, the difference would probably be negligible.

 

[AM9]

Initially no, but in hindsight with all the delays they've had, the difference would probably be negligible.

Great stuff hindsight! Pity it can't be had before decisions are made.

 

[hwl]

Great stuff hindsight! Pity it can't be had before decisions are made.

If they convert enough of them the extra costs overall won't be too bad especially if you take the value of a surplus 319 as scrap.

 

[samuelmorris]

Great stuff hindsight! Pity it can't be had before decisions are made.

Indeed - I was all for the project to begin with, I thought it was a great use of resources. If it can be made to work, I still won't consider it to have been a bad idea, but that's become a very big if. It very nearly reached the point of TOCs having to cut their losses.

 

[Energy]

I wonder how Northern keeping the 323s and letting the 319s go will affect the 769s. Considering one of the advantages for the 769s for Northern was the maintanence as they operated the 319s already but now they are going it makes the 769s a very small fleet when originally they would be with a relatively large fleet of 319s. Could they decide to run 195s instead? Can the 195s be easily fitted with a pantograph? The 319s may be going in 2021 but that is still only 1-2 years.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I wonder how Northern keeping the 323s and letting the 319s go will affect the 769s. Considering one of the advantages for the 769s for Northern was the maintanence as they operated the 319s already but now they are going it makes the 769s a very small fleet when originally they would be with a relatively large fleet of 319s. Could they decide to run 195s instead? Can the 195s be easily fitted with a pantograph? The 319s may be going in 2021 but that is still only 1-2 years.

I think Northern would rather not have the Class 769 Flex units now (there that late) as they have had to manage without. So why now go through the extra costs of training a lot of drivers on so few units which will cost a fortune to run and maintain in the future.
Let TfW or GWR have them instead if they can be utilised there.

 

[Energy]

I think Northern would rather not have the Class 769 Flex units now (there that late) as they have had to manage without. So why now go through the extra costs of training a lot of drivers on so few units which will cost a fortune to run and maintain in the future.
Let TfW or GWR have them instead if they can be utilised there.

Thats if TfW or GWR will take them. GWR are nearly at the end of there franchise and from my knowledge they haven't received any.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed - I was all for the project to begin with, I thought it was a great use of resources. If it can be made to work, I still won't consider it to have been a bad idea, but that's become a very big if. It very nearly reached the point of TOCs having to cut their losses.

Indeed most the of technology we know and love today owes its existence to many many more failed projects!!!!

 

[jh64]

At this rate, they should probably have only bought a few 319s for prototyping the concept. Porterbrook are also doing battery bi-mode 350s, and aside from any political debate about continued use of old trains, practically it has to be easier to operate and maintain something that's ten years old vs thirty and still has ongoing support from the manufacturer.

 

[AM9]

At this rate, they should probably have only bought a few 319s for prototyping the concept. Porterbrook are also doing battery bi-mode 350s, and aside from any political debate about continued use of old trains, practically it has to be easier to operate and maintain something that's ten years old vs thirty and still has ongoing support from the manufacturer.

Porterbrook didn't buy any class 319s for the project, - they already owned the whole fleet of 86, many of which weren't on lease. That was infinitely cheaper than sourcing suitable 10-year old stock.

 

[samuelmorris]

Porterbrook didn't buy any class 319s for the project, - they already owned the whole fleet of 86, many of which weren't on lease. That was infinitely cheaper than sourcing suitable 10-year old stock.

True but they own the 350/2s as well, and they too will soon be off-lease.

 

[edwin_m]

True but they own the 350/2s as well, and they too will soon be off-lease.

Were they expecting the 350/2s to go off lease at the time they started the 769 project? At the time the need was for a quickly-produced solution for the expected electrification not happening on Northern (didn't work out that way of course), so best to use a unit that was immediately available.

The 350/2 is also less technically suitable for conversion to a DMU. It has traction motors on both end cars and the transformer on one of the intermediate cars, so there is only one car with a lot of space underneath for a diesel engine compared with two on the 319. There may be a weight issue too, as a 350 is a lot heavier than a 319. Batteries can be made in a variety of shapes so may be easier to fit than a diesel, but weight could still be a constraint.

 

[Energy]

At this rate, they should probably have only bought a few 319s for prototyping the concept. Porterbrook are also doing battery bi-mode 350s, and aside from any political debate about continued use of old trains, practically it has to be easier to operate and maintain something that's ten years old vs thirty and still has ongoing support from the manufacturer.

Porterbrook seem to be modifying/flexing all there emus... I wonder what the interior will be like? I hope its better than the 319s looking at some of the routes the 769s are planned for, especially GWR.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Porterbrook seem to be modifying/flexing all there emus... I wonder what the interior will be like? I hope its better than the 319s looking at some of the routes the 769s are planned for, especially GWR.

Exactly the same.

 

[Energy]

Exactly the same.

Well, I hope GWR put them on its shorter routes. If GWR every get them.

 

[Jonny]

So how many have actually had the work done and become 769s?

 

[EE Andy b1]

So how many have actually had the work done and become 769s?

Is it 4 completed 769s upto now, 2 for Northern and 2 for TfW. Don't know about GWR!
There maybe others completed in the waiting at Loughborough until mainline tests have concluded.

This was no quick fix, that's for sure.

 

[Roger B]

769 450 was on Allerton's headshunt yesterday, alongside the Hunts Cross line. Perhaps venturing out of the depot soon?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Is it 4 completed 769s upto now, 2 for Northern and 2 for TfW. Don't know about GWR!
There maybe others completed in the waiting at Loughborough until mainline tests have concluded.

This was no quick fix, that's for sure.

Seven have made it out of the factory:

2 Northern ones went to the GCR for testing. They returned to Wabtec several months ago and haven't been seen since.
2 Northern ones were "delivered" to Allerton. They were dragged to Doncaster 4 months ago and are still there.
1 Northern one went straight from Loughborough - Doncaster. This is the one now at Allerton.
2 TfW ones are at Cardiff Canton.

 

[EE Andy b1]

So since a Class 769 was out doing brake tests on the 4th between Allerton - Wigan Springs Branch - Preston, has there been any more mainline testing with that or any other Northern Flex unit?

 

[Killingworth]

Passing Doncaster today there seemed to be several 319 type carriages stabled, but not joined together as a single unit. I leave it to others to draw any conclusions from this into sun shot.

 

[AM9]

Passing Doncaster today there seemed to be several 319 type carriages stabled, but not joined together as a single unit. I leave it to others to draw any conclusions from this into sun shot. View attachment 68584

There was a similar sight at Doncaster on 9th August. I can't be sure of how many coaches and I thought that they were 319s but could be wrong. Our focus that day was on 331s, (including one that sat down in one of the bay platforms)!

 

[anthony263]

769008 has been reformed and is sat outside Canton depot in its tfw livery

 

[jonesy3001]

Is this a 769 being taken to allerton at some point today?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03473/2019/09/19/advanced

 

[59CosG95]

Is this a 769 being taken to allerton at some point today?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03473/2019/09/19/advanced

If it's auto-activated exactly 2 hours before it's due to run, then I wouldn't hold out much hope. If there's a light loco running to collect it, then that's a better sign.
However, said light loco hasn't left Leicester LIP... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02268/2019/09/19/advanced

 

[jonesy3001]

If it's auto-activated exactly 2 hours before it's due to run, then I wouldn't hold out much hope. If there's a light loco running to collect it, then that's a better sign.
However, said light loco hasn't left Leicester LIP... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R02268/2019/09/19/advanced

Probably be cancelled then.

 

[Tracked]

There was a similar sight at Doncaster on 9th August. I can't be sure of how many coaches and I thought that they were 319s but could be wrong. Our focus that day was on 331s, (including one that sat down in one of the bay platforms)!

769, it's been there a few months, occasionally the carriages get moved around in those sidings

 

[EE Andy b1]

So still no 769 on diesel out on the mainline yet?

Hope these don't rot away like the EPS Mk3 next to them.

 

[Ribbleman]

Reported elsewhere that 769 450 has been out on diesel power tonight. Something with a Class 3 headcode has been shuttling between Lime Street and Earlestown on 158 timings. Presumably the 769?