Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Cardiff123]

ASLEF still have them blackballed. There is dribs and drabs of training taking place but as someone pointed out earlier, the majority that have trained them will probably end up needing retraining.

So ASLEF want fully functioning air conditioning retro fitted to the cabs of 30+ years old trains?

If that's the case why don't ASLEF just bring Northern to a standstill and insist on having air con fitted to the cabs of Northern's 319s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s as well? The Sprinters are all around the same age as the 319s/769s.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

ASLEF still have them blackballed. There is dribs and drabs of training taking place but as someone pointed out earlier, the majority that have trained them will probably end up needing retraining.

In the current COVID climate and possible existential threat to the railways this is crazy imho

So ASLEF want fully functioning air conditioning retro fitted to the cabs of 30+ years old trains?

If that's the case why don't ASLEF just bring Northern to a standstill and insist on having air con fitted to the cabs of Northern's 319s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s as well? The Sprinters are all around the same age as the 319s/769s.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In the current COVID climate and possible existential threat to the railways this is crazy imho

I would suggest that ASLEF speak to the NUM (National Union of Mineworkers). How many members do the NUM have now compared to, say, 1980?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I would suggest that ASLEF speak to the NUM (National Union of Mineworkers). How many members do the NUM have now compared to, say, 1980?

Exactly

 

[Cardiff123]

I assume this demand by ASLEF to retrofit 769s cabs with air con just applies to Northern and not TfW (or GWR)?

If so, what's so special about Northern's 769s that they need air con but TfW's and GWR's do not?

 

[scrapy]

I assume this demand by ASLEF to retrofit 769s cabs with air con just applies to Northern and not TfW (or GWR)?

If so, what's so special about Northern's 769s that they need air con but TfW's and GWR's do not?

I've been told TFW have fitted AC so no dispute there. Not sure about GWR.

 

[Fincra5]

So ASLEF want fully functioning air conditioning retro fitted to the cabs of 30+ years old trains?

If that's the case why don't ASLEF just bring Northern to a standstill and insist on having air con fitted to the cabs of Northern's 319s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s as well? The Sprinters are all around the same age as the 319s/769s.

But 769s don't count as old trains. They're, for all intensive purposes, a "new" train.. just with recycled parts. Similar if you will to the original EPBs or Class 416/1, which were built to an SR design on salvaged 2 NOL underframes ...

New trains are required to have A/C in the cab I believe. You could get away with it if it was still a 319 but its not. Also, is working A/C for Staff that unreasonable these days? I'd say not.

 

[OTRail]

Yep, sure are. Question is when can we expect to see one? It would be great if someone could share latest status (are all units delivered / accepted?), plans for driver training, and expected dates into service (ISTR Dec 20, May 21 and Dec 21 being suggested). Many thanks

I’ve seen a few pictures on Flickr and Instagram from when driver training runs took place before Covid kicked off. I think they even made it to Southport at one point.

I've been told TFW have fitted AC so no dispute there. Not sure about GWR.

GWR ones should - their units are fitted with AC throughout the train.

 

[221101 Voyager]

GWR ones should - their units are fitted with AC throughout the train.

Oh is it the same scenario as with their 165s where they have hopper windows locked for emergency use only and they have an AC system for everyday use?

 

[Efini92]

So ASLEF want fully functioning air conditioning retro fitted to the cabs of 30+ years old trains?

If that's the case why don't ASLEF just bring Northern to a standstill and insist on having air con fitted to the cabs of Northern's 319s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s as well? The Sprinters are all around the same age as the 319s/769s.

I think ASLEF are saying as it’s a new class of train they want all the mod cons.
To be honest I’ve stopped listening to them now. Northern’s company council is at best a joke.

 

[OTRail]

Oh is it the same scenario as with their 165s where they have hopper windows locked for emergency use only and they have an AC system for everyday use?

Yep - if you look really close on the roof you can see the AC fans, although they’re relatively small!

 

[221101 Voyager]

Yep - if you look really close on the roof you can see the AC fans, although they’re relatively small!

I must admit the GWR (769s) scrub up very nicely. The TfW ones are rather nice too. Can't wait to see them once covid improves, I'll say give it a year or two. If covid is better by then, I may get to see them and travel on one.

 

[WAO]

If DfT/ORR/NR/TOC's were really interested in having an alert, vigilant driver in otherwise comfortable, physically undemanding and perhaps soporific modern cabs they would be pressing for a/c to be fitted widely.

Commercial road vehicles mostly have it, for good reason. It would be interesting to see the correlation between SPADs and overheated cabs.

WAO

 

[Grumpy Git]

How many on here having a "dig" at ASLEF work in an office that has remained basically unchanged since 1987?

 

[supervc-10]

I work in a hospital, where it seems like apart from them giving us computers, nothing has changed in my office since before 1987! No A/C, a fan someone brought into work with them, no windows, and it was unbearable in the summer.

 

[Efini92]

How many on here having a "dig" at ASLEF work in an office that has remained basically unchanged since 1987?

I’ve been an ASLEF member since 2002. Until they sort their officers out I’ll keep having digs

 

[bengley]

I don't think it's unreasonable of ASLEF to demand AC is fitted to the 769s, but I think they should be given dispensation to run in the interim as a compromise

 

[The Ham]

I don't think it's unreasonable of ASLEF to demand AC is fitted to the 769s, but I think they should be given dispensation to run in the interim as a compromise

Given that it's currently winter (and assuming the AC isn't needed for heating) a sensible compromise could be to say that they'll allow training until the May 2021 timetable change without AC, but AC must be fitted after that for them to continue to use them.

That way if they down tools in May ASLEF can argue that they've put the customers first by ensuring that their members are trained and ready to use the trains having allowed the TOC time to fit AC to these trains at other TOC's with that type of train have.

Certainly easier to come across as the good guys than the current situation.

 

[DustyBin]

But 769s don't count as old trains. They're, for all intensive purposes, a "new" train.. just with recycled parts. Similar if you will to the original EPBs or Class 416/1, which were built to an SR design on salvaged 2 NOL underframes ...

New trains are required to have A/C in the cab I believe. You could get away with it if it was still a 319 but its not. Also, is working A/C for Staff that unreasonable these days? I'd say not.

I’d argue they’re old trains with new parts. The SR design EPB example isn’t the same thing really, yes they used salvaged under frames but they were substantially, and to all intents and purposes, new trains. I’ll admit it’s open to interpretation....

It doesn’t help that TFW have fitted A/C to their 769s as it makes it look like (typical) cost cutting at Northern....

 

[TheSel]

So when can we expect to see one in Northern livery?

I’ve seen a few pictures on Flickr and Instagram from when driver training runs took place before Covid kicked off. I think they even made it to Southport at one point.

Please see post #4554 (page 152)

 

[Ribbleman]

Yep, sure are. Question is when can we expect to see one? It would be great if someone could share latest status (are all units delivered / accepted?), plans for driver training, and expected dates into service (ISTR Dec 20, May 21 and Dec 21 being suggested). Many thanks

Latest info to users' group a few days ago is that the plan of having 4 sets in traffic by December has gone. Depending upon how well the restarted driver training goes, we may see the first one in use in January.

 

[Fincra5]

I’d argue they’re old trains with new parts. The SR design EPB example isn’t the same thing really, yes they used salvaged under frames but they were substantially, and to all intents and purposes, new trains. I’ll admit it’s open to interpretation....

It doesn’t help that TFW have fitted A/C to their 769s as it makes it look like (typical) cost cutting at Northern....

Tit for Tat really but as far as the DfT, ORR etc are concerned they are "New trains"... therefore need to comply to certain standards unlike older stock with "grandfather rights"...

 

[Senna1210]

I’d argue they’re old trains with new parts. The SR design EPB example isn’t the same thing really, yes they used salvaged under frames but they were substantially, and to all intents and purposes, new trains. I’ll admit it’s open to interpretation....

It doesn’t help that TFW have fitted A/C to their 769s as it makes it look like (typical) cost cutting at Northern....

TFW have not fitted ac to the units they are looking into it but its a long way off

 

[Bob Price]

TFW have not fitted ac to the units they are looking into it but its a long way off

When I saw one up close it had a fan in the cab. It is possible that as they are on frequently stopping services and don't go much above 75mph they may not be as necessary as the Northern ones.

 

[Roger B]

When I saw one up close it had a fan in the cab. It is possible that as they are on frequently stopping services and don't go much above 75mph they may not be as necessary as the Northern ones.

Plenty of stops between Southport and Man Vic / Stalyvegas - and wouldn't have thought much scope for running over 75mph - though happy to defer to those better in the know re line speeds.

 

[DustyBin]

TFW have not fitted ac to the units they are looking into it but its a long way off

Ok thanks, I thought they’d already fitted it.

 

[js1000]

So ASLEF want fully functioning air conditioning retro fitted to the cabs of 30+ years old trains?

If that's the case why don't ASLEF just bring Northern to a standstill and insist on having air con fitted to the cabs of Northern's 319s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s as well? The Sprinters are all around the same age as the 319s/769s.

With passenger numbers down an unprecedented 50% and effectively run by the taxpayer at a loss - ASLEF really need to consider if this is the best time to be campaigning for minor perks.

 

[D365]

When I saw one up close it had a fan in the cab.

Is this to say that the unions are satisfied with the cooling arrangements provided in the TfW units? "A fan" could mean any number of things

 

[Grumpy Git]

With passenger numbers down an unprecedented 50% and effectively run by the taxpayer at a loss - ASLEF really need to consider if this is the best time to be campaigning for minor perks.

So you consider equipment capable of reducing a cab temperature from (say) 30C+ on some days in mid-summer to 19C a minor perk, wow.

 

[Phillipimo]

So you consider equipment capable of reducing a cab temperature from (say) 30C+ on some days in mid-summer to 19C a minor perk, wow.

Now that it is almost November, there is at least 6 months until temperatures will reach 30C. Is there a chance of getting drivers training whilst an Air-Con solution is sorted out simultaneously in time for next summer?