Possible new stock

[spudfan]

Possible future rolling stock from China....
http://www.csre.co.uk/.

 

[ainsworth74]

There have been threads (which you can probably find with a bit of search) about these guys before and I think one of their member's of staff actually has an account on here (but he hasn't posted in a while).

 

[Photohunter71]

As posted previously on another traction/rolling stock thread,I mentioned that i'd love to see us getting the CNR DL (Dalian) loco's for freight haulage,however that does look quite smart after clicking on the link.But talking of loco hauled passenger stock,are we not getting the possibility of Traxx electrics and maybe Vossloh Eurolight diesels for non-electrified passenger (Inverness/Aberdeen to London)? A good mix of all would be fantastic,and more film and photo opportunities for all!

 

[jopsuk]

Worth noting that the website has various broken pages with "will be fixed by 10/1/2011" on them, and nothing seemingly posted to the site news since January last year. For now, CSRE would at the very least appear to be "resting".

 

[asylumxl]

Worth noting that the website has various broken pages with "will be fixed by 10/1/2011" on them, and nothing seemingly posted to the site news since January last year. For now, CSRE would at the very least appear to be "resting".

Couldn't be further from the truth. As far as I know they're busy bidding for contracts.

They could do with a new website though.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't get the point of the Pulsar with 19.6m carriages
http://www.csre.co.uk/files/Download/2011_Pulsar_Data_Sheet.pdf

when it seems to have no advantages over the Pacesetter with 23m carriages
http://www.csre.co.uk/files/Download/2011_Pacesetter_Data_Sheet.pdf

other than presumably being cheaper as they are smaller carriages.

If they want to get in to the market why don't CSRE build 6 x 3 car DMU Pacesetters with 2+2 seating (standard class throughout) as demo units and if someone is interested then lease them out themselves and build more to lease out? That should cut down the leasing costs by eliminating the middle man and also prove the CSRE can build trains that work on the UK network.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There have been threads (which you can probably find with a bit of search) about these guys before and I think one of their member's of staff actually has an account on here (but he hasn't posted in a while).

That's quite correct.
The member is Kingfisher200262 and you can search for Polaris or for the member's name (or both). An informative thread was this one just 5 months ago: GNWR application to Network Rail.

 

[the sniper]

From what I've manage to understand from You Tube (valid source ), the enthusiasts of Hong Kong aren't impressed with their Chinese built stock. They seemingly much prefer their Metro Cammell stock!

 

[Yew]

I agree that CSRE should get some demo units over here.


Only advantage i cna see to the pulsar is that in longer formations, you might have more doors + standing room, so could be useful for london

 

[asylumxl]

I don't get the point of the Pulsar with 19.6m carriages
http://www.csre.co.uk/files/Download/2011_Pulsar_Data_Sheet.pdf

when it seems to have no advantages over the Pacesetter with 23m carriages
http://www.csre.co.uk/files/Download/2011_Pulsar_Data_Sheet.pdf

other than presumably being cheaper as they are smaller carriages.

Overhang? Platform lengths?

 

[northwichcat]

Only advantage i cna see to the pulsar is that in longer formations, you might have more doors + standing room, so could be useful for london

But then the Pulsar is the one without corridor connectors.

 

[WatcherZero]

They did announce that they were shipping over 3 trial units (both a Pacesetter and a Pulsar) and had negotiated franchises which would trial them two years ago (one implied to be Northern). Nothing seems to have come from it.

 

[northwichcat]

Overhang? Platform lengths?

Neither of the trains have doors right at the end of carriages like the 156s and 158s do so like the 350s they would be able to call at platforms which are shorter than the train subject to signal positions.

The spec states the Pacesetter would include SDO.

With passenger numbers up and more space being required to comply with disability regulations on new trains, 2 carriage trains of 40m in total length won't be much use on most routes unless working in multiple and if all trains are going to run in multiple then why not just order longer trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They did announce that they were shipping over 3 trial units (both a Pacesetter and a Pulsar) and had negotiated franchises which would trial them two years ago (one implied to be Northern). Nothing seems to have come from it.

Didn't Northern want them to be built in China to bring down costs and DfT said EU build trains only would be allowed?

 

[jopsuk]

Couldn't be further from the truth. As far as I know they're busy bidding for contracts.

They could do with a new website though.

Fair enough- if you've got inside information, then I bow to your knowledge. The website gives the impression of a company that is entirely inactive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Before they can be seriously considered for contracts they need to put the miles in operating a trial somewhere in Europe, until then they will always be unproven without a history of reliable operation.

 

[DXMachina]

And seriously who'd trust the chinese to make something this complicated and do it right? They have the culture of technology, they have the ability, but they don't have the H&S culture or the quality control. And these units only exist as artists renderings and allegedly, designs

Nobody has the slightest clue if they'll really meet performance, efficiency, safety and ride quality targets. Until they build some for real it's just a web page made by some under-capitalised engineers

look at any chinese car for good reasons not to buy chinese trains.. and look at the involvement of the People's Liberation Army in all heavy manufacturing for another.

 

[TGV]

They have the culture of technology, they have the ability, but they don't have the H&S culture or the quality control. And these units only exist as artists renderings and allegedly, designs

Nobody has the slightest clue if they'll really meet performance, efficiency, safety and ride quality targets. Until they build some for real it's just a web page made by some under-capitalised engineers.

In my experience, I find myself agreeing. I have had the misfortune of discovering some quite alarming problems from Chinese manufacture. What's worse, is there are some fundamental standards being broken that could lead to serious failures of safety critical structures or applications.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wasnt the story going around that they had illicitly acquired Pacer blueprints from the takeover of a British company that supplied parts for them and without respect to copyright used them as the foundation for its design of cheap UK trains? There was even talk that they were offering to 'clone' the original Pacers if the Government wanted more stock guarenteeing 'full compatability' with existing Pacers.

 

[asylumxl]

Wasnt the story going around that they had illicitly acquired Pacer blueprints from the takeover of a British company that supplied parts for them and without respect to copyright used them as the foundation for its design of cheap UK trains? There was even talk that they were offering to 'clone' the original Pacers if the Government wanted more stock guarenteeing 'full compatability' with existing Pacers.

I've never heard any stories like that. Got a link or anything?

Sounds like a load of bovine excrement to me.

 

[AndrewP]

The ideal here is for the trains to be shipped over in component form / semi finished form in a way for them to be assembled here using UK / European quality standards and health and safety standards.

This is exactly the way MG cars are being made again in Birmingham so why can't it work for trains - maybe they could even buy Bombardier's UK operations (tongue in cheek but why not?)

 

[anthony263]

The ideal here is for the trains to be shipped over in component form / semi finished form in a way for them to be assembled here using UK / European quality standards and health and safety standards.

This is exactly the way MG cars are being made again in Birmingham so why can't it work for trains - maybe they could even buy Bombardier's UK operations (tongue in cheek but why not?)

Sounds ok but we will have to wait and see.

I remember there being an article in Rail magazine back in 2010 about CSRE who said they were looking at building a protoype polaris train which they would trial in the uk perhaps sometime in 2012, that has gone quiet although I wouldn't mind seing it in action.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember there being an article in Rail magazine back in 2010 about CSRE who said they were looking at building a protoype polaris train which they would trial in the uk perhaps sometime in 2012, that has gone quiet although I wouldn't mind seing it in action.

They were hoping Alliance Rail would get an approved track access application meaning they would require a small fleet of Polaris trains as per their track access applications. Alliance's applications got rejected initially and they've submitted revised ones.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They were hoping Alliance Rail would get an approved track access application meaning they would require a small fleet of Polaris trains as per their track access applications. Alliance's applications got rejected initially and they've submitted revised ones.

Doesnt look at all like they will get any accepted. ECML has been met with stiff resitance including DB Schenker. Which is funny as Alliance is part (insert appropriate word here) by a DB company. WCML rejected once cant see them accepting the second one either.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, Alliance were basically told there wernt going to be any West Coast paths handed out until 2013, then resubmitted their application without changing anything!

 

[Class172]

Those pacesetters look like a 172 crossed with a 350.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do I doubt the build quality of these trains.

The 19.2m trains are undoubtedly designed to be as cheap as possible per carriage (not even got saloon air conditioning as standard?) to enable marketing people and politicians to go on about how the number of carriages available for services has exploded.

 

[IanXC]

Thinking of the £100m for the Scottish Sleepers, could CSRE supply new stock within budget?

 

[asylumxl]

Why do I doubt the build quality of these trains.

The 19.2m trains are undoubtedly designed to be as cheap as possible per carriage (not even got saloon air conditioning as standard?) to enable marketing people and politicians to go on about how the number of carriages available for services has exploded.

I believe the 376s don't have air conditioning either.

It's worth noting that the the HSR crash was due to signalling and not the trains build quality.

Chinese heavy engineering cannot be compared to small electronics built for pennies (that includes the ones sold for hundreds).

There was a Discovery Channel programme on the CRH380As construction which gave a good insight into the testing procedures their stock undergoes.

Also, 19.6m is 40cm shorter than 20m carriages of which there are plenty on the network. That's absolutely nothing. Not even enough for an extra seat.

 

[jopsuk]

less than 40cm in some cases- mrk 3-based and "PEP" derived driving trailers are down as 19.8m.

 

[WatcherZero]

Chinese heavy engineering cannot be compared to small electronics built for pennies (that includes the ones sold for hundreds).
.

Not just electronics, you see how many roads, viaducts and bridges are collapsing recently? There was even a report from the Chinese Government that while the average life of a new house built in the UK was 112 years and in the US was 80 years, in China it was just 30 years.