Possible projects in Northern Ireland

[Calthrop]

I think I read somewhere that someone managed to cycle from Londonderry to Belfast quicker than the train took which was rather embarrassing.

A couple of uncles of mine, on holiday in Ireland in 1938, managed to cycle from a point near Skibbereen, to Schull; more quickly than the train travelling over the same route, which they encountered by chance: admittedly that was -- apart from being on the same island -- a highly different situation !

 

[craigybagel]

I am pretty sure I read that the section between New Mossley and Antrim (on the Belfast to Derry line) is cleared for 90mph by the CAFs.

Correct. That section was completely relaid when it was reopened to passenger traffic about 15 years ago.

Realistically though would would be the maximum speed for a Belfast to Londonderry service? I think its 50mph at the moment which is far too slow for an inter-city route if you ask me.

What is the top speed that any Irish Gauge train ever built by the way?

Top speed in NI is 90mph, as found on the above mentioned section and also in places on the Belfast-Dublin line. In the Republic, Dublin-Cork is 100mph max. I'm not sure why when the cross border line was upgraded in the mid 90s (almost entirely relaid with CWR replacing jointed track, centralised signalling with TCB replacing AB, and various over bridges rebuilt - it really was a massive project) they only went for 90mph when the Cork line was pushed up to 100 at around the same time, but then Ireland rarely does things logically......

As for the fastest vehicles, the 201 class locos are supposedly 103mph top speed. The legendary 800 class Steam locos of the GSR may well have been capable of more than that I've also heard a few stories of what the 071 class could do before the current 90mph limit was imposed.......

 

[thenorthern]

This may seem a strange question but is the current Northern Ireland railway network shaped along sectarian lines as the majority of the places served by Northern Ireland Railways seem to have a Protestant/Unionist majority with the exception of Londonderry and Newry both of which have less services than most stations in Northern Ireland.

Also are there any statistics of passenger numbers in Northern Ireland as from what I gather the busiest station in the Republic of Ireland is Dublin Pearse which only has 8 million per year which given the size of Dublin that is the same as Guildford station.

 

[AlterEgo]

This may seem a strange question but is the current Northern Ireland railway network shaped along sectarian lines as the majority of the places served by Northern Ireland Railways seem to have a Protestant/Unionist majority with the exception of Londonderry and Newry both of which have less services than most stations in Northern Ireland.

Gosh, a big, and interesting question. In my view, the railways are shaped unintentionally along sectarian lines.

The answer really lies in having a deep understanding of Northern Ireland history and politics and understanding the geography and demographics of the area. A railway forum probably isn't the best place to give an introduction to that, and with no single accepted narrative to Northern Ireland's history it would be remiss of me to provide that, given that someone else could argue was steeped in opinion. But, if you Google "infrastructure west of the Bann" and you'll see a range of sources which indicate it's an issue even today.

Donegal, in the Republic, has no public railways at all and hasn't for some time.

 

[Elwyn]

I think the total passenger numbers within Northern Ireland is running at about 11 million a year, but I don't have a breakdown by route.

If you read the history of railways in Northern Ireland in the 1950s and 1960s, they were seen as anachronistic and uneconomic. The car and the bus was the way forward and repeated Unionist Governments closed as much down as they could, including plenty of lines in what might be perceived as Unionist territory eg the Belfast to Newcastle line. And there were several attempts to close everything else down, save perhaps for the Belfast – Dublin line. I don’t think sectarianism came into it, just economics and a bias against rail as a good form of transport. Fortunately that’s changed a bit in recent years.

You say that the service to Londonderry/Derry is not very good. It’s a single track line all the way from Londonderry to Mossley West on the outskirts of Belfast with 10 departures form Waterside station on weekdays. That’s twice the service frequency on offer 30 years ago, and the main reason there isn’t a greater service from Londonderry is lack of passing places (there’s none between Londonderry and Castlerock), something about to be fixed by the Bellarena loop when it opens later this year. No timetable has been published yet but the service is bound to be increased significantly, possibly to an hourly frequency, since otherwise putting in the passing loop would be a gross waste of money.

This is from a news release recording what the NI Transport minister said in 2014 (I can’t get the link to work):

Passenger numbers on the Coleraine to Belfast railway increased by a third between 2011/12 and 2013/14 equating to an increase of over 400,000 passengers journeys in three years, taking passenger numbers from over 1.2million in 2011/12 to over 1.6million in 2013/14.

The Minister said: “There has also been passenger growth on the Londonderry to Coleraine stretch of the railway network, and the completion of Phase 1 of the track relay on this stretch has played a key role in this.

“The introduction of a new rail timetable targeted at the Coleraine to Belfast service, introduction of new trains and continued investment in infrastructure has clearly helped to generate this growth. It is important that we continue to invest in our rail infrastructure and ensure rail fares are competitive.”

Across Northern Ireland rail passenger journeys have increased by approximately 2.5 million over the period from 2011/12 to 2013/14. The Minister welcomed the significant upturn in rail passenger growth. He said: “In recent years there has been a significant growth in numbers choosing to use the railway as a mode of transport across Northern Ireland. I believe rail travel offers a safe, comfortable and efficient option, particularly for commuters and inter-city passengers.

“The Railway Investment Prioritisation Strategy published recently sets out the priorities for my department’s investment in railways capital grant over the next 20 years. This includes proposals for upgrading the Coleraine to Belfast corridor.

“My first priority is track maintenance and the improvement of passenger capacity on the existing network. The strategy includes a number of projects on the Northern line between Coleraine and Belfast for track works, station improvements and Park and Ride facilities.

“As passenger demand increases, Translink plans to purchase up to 60 additional carriages which will allow the introduction of longer trains or additional services to extend passenger capacities, including on the Northern line.”

The capacity of the Northern line to carry more trains will depend upon removing potential track bottlenecks around Belfast. There are proposals for dualling of the single track crossing of the Lagan at Dargan Bridge and adding an additional line from Lagan junction to Central Station. This will help improved timetabling of services into Belfast.

In the longer term, the Strategy commits Translink to consider options to enhance timetabling and shorten journey times on the Northern line by either dualling the existing single line track between Bleach Green and Antrim or re-opening the Antrim to Knockmore/Lisburn line.

 

[Mordac]

Passenger numbers in 2014/15 (latest year for which statistics are available ATM) was 13.4 million, a 7.2% increase on 2013/14. Most recent data sets here: https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.u...porating-annual-traffic-census-and-variations


EDIT: On the East-West divide, West of the Bann population density is much lower and the population is much more dispersed, none of which is good for rail.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Also are there any statistics of passenger numbers in Northern Ireland as from what I gather the busiest station in the Republic of Ireland is Dublin Pearse which only has 8 million per year which given the size of Dublin that is the same as Guildford station.

Seem to remember an information board at the Transport Museum at Cultra a couple of years ago stating NIR's five busiest stations by footfall were Belfast Central, Great Victoria Street, Bangor, Lisburn and Lurgan.

IE did a report into their usage a couple of years ago - I'm certain it's been linked to on here - that gave breakdown of users per day at each station. I seem to recall the quietest overall was Attymon; the busiest was Connolly I think. I'll have a quick search if I get time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Found it - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104783

 

[Chester1]

Any chance of electrification, switching to UK LG and running some sort of metro service? Belfast Central - Lisburn - Dublin/Antrim could be seperated from rest of network. Considering the number of stops that would likely be a bigger time saver than small linespeed increases.

 

[thenorthern]

I know its been tried before but would it be worthwhile re-opening a Portstewart station?

Any chance of electrification, switching to UK LG and running some sort of metro service? Belfast Central - Lisburn - Dublin/Antrim could be seperated from rest of network. Considering the number of stops that would likely be a bigger time saver than small linespeed increases.

I think they would need to get a single standard for electrification for that as the DART used 1500v DC which by my understanding isn't the best option for electrification.

 

[craigybagel]

Any chance of electrification, switching to UK LG and running some sort of metro service? Belfast Central - Lisburn - Dublin/Antrim could be seperated from rest of network. Considering the number of stops that would likely be a bigger time saver than small linespeed increases.

Assuming you mean track gauge rather than loading gauge (as discussed on a seperate thread recently, the loading gauge is broadly similar), then what would you hope to achieve? Electrification though, at least of the Bangor-Portadown line could be useful given the close together stops, although it's worth pointing out that most of the current fleet is pretty new and it'd be difficult to find a new home for displaced units if you electrified their routes!

I think they would need to get a single standard for electrification for that as the DART used 1500v DC which by my understanding isn't the best option for electrification.

I'm sure I read somewhere that if DART underground had gone ahead the plan was to build that at 2.5 kV AC and change the original route over as well.

Whether or not there is a case for electrification when both networks either side of the border are not exactly flush with cash and passenger numbers on the Dublin-Belfast line have been suffering for years (it's at least dual carriageway and mostly motorway all the way between the two cities and bus passengers have rocketed ) is another matter.

 

[backontrack]

I think Craigavon needs a station as well.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

In the longer term, the Strategy commits Translink to consider options to enhance timetabling and shorten journey times on the Northern line by either dualling the existing single line track between Bleach Green and Antrim or re-opening the Antrim to Knockmore/Lisburn line.

I'm not remotely familiar with the area, but looking on Google maps, Antrim to Lisburn looks like a very indirect route to Belfast, compared to the current route. Can reopening that route really reduce journey times?

 

[Elwyn]

I'm not remotely familiar with the area, but looking on Google maps, Antrim to Lisburn looks like a very indirect route to Belfast, compared to the current route. Can reopening that route really reduce journey times?

Antrim to Lisburn is a very indirect route to Belfast. When it was open and used as the main route into Belfast it added at least 20 minutes to the journey time and it should definitely not routinely be used as a primary route to Belfast. That traffic should remain on the direct line. However what the Lisburn line does have potential for is commuter traffic from the existing mothballed stations at Crumlin, Glenavy, Ballinderry and Knockmore into Belfast. When the line was open there were many commuters who joined trains there (I was one of them) and since then all these towns have increased in size as suburbs to Belfast. So the main traffic would be commuters from Antrim to Lisburn or from intermediate stations into Belfast. Peak services from Antrim to Belfast and off-peak from Antrim to Lisburn (change for Belfast) would probably suffice. Possibly requiring no more than 2 units.

 

[Calthrop]

If you read the history of railways in Northern Ireland in the 1950s and 1960s, they were seen as anachronistic and uneconomic. The car and the bus was the way forward and repeated Unionist Governments closed as much down as they could, including plenty of lines in what might be perceived as Unionist territory eg the Belfast to Newcastle line. And there were several attempts to close everything else down, save perhaps for the Belfast – Dublin line. I don’t think sectarianism came into it, just economics and a bias against rail as a good form of transport. Fortunately that’s changed a bit in recent years.

Being a keen railway enthusiast and unrealistic sentimentalist, I spent a fair few decades hating the UTA and the Stormont government -- not for anything else that they might have been up to; but purely for their extreme pro-road and anti-railway position around the half-way mark of the 20th century. UTA's 1950 closure rampage was by quite a way, the earliest-largest-scale instance of such, in the British Isles (other such doings happened, there and elsewhere in our island group, somewhat later). I can see now, that those who made those moves 65-odd years ago were not villains -- they were just doing what they saw as right and appropriate.

Mid-point of 20th century, many intelligent and informed people thought that railways -- especially secondary / rural ones -- had outlived their usefulness, and that private and public road transport was the way forward. I think that it can fairly be said that in the main, Northern Ireland was, for long, not one of the more progressive and forward-looking polities in western Europe: but re transport, NI was around 1950, "on the cutting edge". "Hindsight is 20/20": am ready to believe that those concerned at the time, truly thought that what they implemented, was for the best.

 

[thenorthern]

Antrim to Lisburn is a very indirect route to Belfast. When it was open and used as the main route into Belfast it added at least 20 minutes to the journey time and it should definitely not routinely be used as a primary route to Belfast. That traffic should remain on the direct line. However what the Lisburn line does have potential for is commuter traffic from the existing mothballed stations at Crumlin, Glenavy, Ballinderry and Knockmore into Belfast. When the line was open there were many commuters who joined trains there (I was one of them) and since then all these towns have increased in size as suburbs to Belfast. So the main traffic would be commuters from Antrim to Lisburn or from intermediate stations into Belfast. Peak services from Antrim to Belfast and off-peak from Antrim to Lisburn (change for Belfast) would probably suffice. Possibly requiring no more than 2 units.

IIRC the reason the trains to Londonderry went through Lisburn at the time was the line into Belfast from Antrim along the current route went into the now closed Belfast York Road station rather than Belfast Great Victoria Street or the modern Belfast Central.

The current route between between Belfast and Antrim closed in 1981 but in 1992 if I remember correctly Belfast York Road station closed in 1992 and the line from Larne was diverted into Belfast Central which is part way for the current route. In 2001 the current route to Londonderry re-opened but the old route via Lisburn stayed open until 2003.

I did read somewhere that Belfast International Airport would like a station to serve the airport if the line reopens but realistically it would need to be on British Road by the airport rather than the old side of Aldergrove station to be near the airport and realistically it would need some sort of a link to the Airport to it wouldn't end up like East Midlands Parkway.

 

[DT611]

NIR MU stock is 90 as is Enterprise, IE 201 locos + stock, 2200 railcars are 100 mph, the rest of their diesel railcars are 75mph, 071 locos are freight only now but are 90mph capable.

The IE mk4 is 125 mph capible i believe, but limited to 100 in operational service due to the 201 loco. I believe also the 22000 could be upgraded for 125 mph, but i can't confirm that.

It really is a shame that the post war Stormont government was violently opposed to rail as if they had survived a number of the lines closed in the 50s and 60s would be very well used today. Certainly the Derry-Portadown-Belfast/Dublin route is a great loss as well as some of the County Down commuter lines.

Indeed, while no doubt some of what was closed deserved to be the complete destruction carried out by the ulster transport authority and the government at the time was shameful. Still, what's done is done and won't be changed. Remind me which route you refer to when you mention the Derry-Portadown-Belfast/Dublin route? The derry road + what was the irish north?

This may seem a strange question but is the current Northern Ireland railway network shaped along sectarian lines as the majority of the places served by Northern Ireland Railways seem to have a Protestant/Unionist majority with the exception of Londonderry and Newry both of which have less services than most stations in Northern Ireland.

Definitely a very interesting and good question which is worth a discussion in my view, but possibly not for here. What i will say is that it could be indeed the case that sectarianism may have played a part in the decisian, but it's not something i could prove or disprove, yet i wouldn't rule it out either.

 

[thenorthern]

One thing I find strange is if the Lisburn to Antrim line was in Great Britain it would have remained open with the service it had before the line line through Mosley opened. Being in Northern Ireland though it got closed.

Given the difficulty of TOCs of closing or even reducing services a National Rail station in Great Britain how much of the Railway Regulation Act 1844 applies to Northern Ireland?

 

[AlterEgo]

Given the difficulty of TOCs of closing or even reducing services a National Rail station in Great Britain how much of the Railway Regulation Act 1844 applies to Northern Ireland?

Relevant legislation nowadays is from the time of the old Stormont assembly, the Transport Act (NI) 1967:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/apni/1967/37/section/60

 

[nidave]

They have been regular stories about Re-Opening Knockmore station as Lisburn west.

A quick search looks like they have done some clearing work a while ago - cant see anything more recent.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/snippet/11569

 

[Chester1]

Assuming you mean track gauge rather than loading gauge (as discussed on a seperate thread recently, the loading gauge is broadly similar), then what would you hope to achieve? Electrification though, at least of the Bangor-Portadown line could be useful given the close together stops, although it's worth pointing out that most of the current fleet is pretty new and it'd be difficult to find a new home for displaced units if you electrified their routes!

I'm sure I read somewhere that if DART underground had gone ahead the plan was to build that at 2.5 kV AC and change the original route over as well.

Whether or not there is a case for electrification when both networks either side of the border are not exactly flush with cash and passenger numbers on the Dublin-Belfast line have been suffering for years (it's at least dual carriageway and mostly motorway all the way between the two cities and bus passengers have rocketed ) is another matter.

Yes I meant track gauge. If tracks are relaid to allow for faster running it wouldn't cost as much to regauge at the same time. The benefit would be being able to swap rolling stock with UK trains and if Belfast ever had them again, trams. I guess it depends on how much regauging would cost vs cost of purchasing 5" 3 rolling stock new. If it was a slow line by line upgrade presumably ROI would be interested in buying them to deal with capacity growth and replacing old rolling stock?

Any serious upgrades would need UK treasury funding which would probably be very difficult.

 

[DT611]

Yes I meant track gauge. If tracks are relaid to allow for faster running it wouldn't cost as much to regauge at the same time. The benefit would be being able to swap rolling stock with UK trains and if Belfast ever had them again, trams. I guess it depends on how much regauging would cost vs cost of purchasing 5" 3 rolling stock new. If it was a slow line by line upgrade presumably ROI would be interested in buying them to deal with capacity growth and replacing old rolling stock?

Any serious upgrades would need UK treasury funding which would probably be very difficult.

Any costs of regauging would be prohibitive. They're would be no point or benefit in doing so. If swapping stock between it and the uk was something that ever needed to happen then regauging the stock itself would be the best option. It won't be an issue anyway.

 

[najaB]

...being able to swap rolling stock with UK trains...

You mean as has been done in the past by simply changing the bogies. Or were you planning on sending Pacers over there?

 

[thenorthern]

Just reading there was a recommendation to Stormont to privatise railways in Northern Ireland, got a news article for it and will try and post it.

I don't think it would work though as given the high subsidies both Northern Ireland Railways and Ulsterbus get it would require someone with a lot of skill to make it profitable.

 

[nidave]

Its in the Belfast Telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...port-and-ni-water-privatisation-30876097.html

 

[AlterEgo]

Just reading there was a recommendation to Stormont to privatise railways in Northern Ireland, got a news article for it and will try and post it.

I don't think it would work though as given the high subsidies both Northern Ireland Railways and Ulsterbus get it would require someone with a lot of skill to make it profitable.

It would definitely need a company from outside NI to provide the skills and investment. Still, any foreign money coming into NI is very welcome.

 

[Mordac]

Its in the Belfast Telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...port-and-ni-water-privatisation-30876097.html

That's from a year and a half ago.

 

[nidave]

That's from a year and a half ago.

Oooops - I didnt look at the date.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

This may seem a strange question but is the current Northern Ireland railway network shaped along sectarian lines as the majority of the places served by Northern Ireland Railways seem to have a Protestant/Unionist majority with the exception of Londonderry and Newry both of which have less services than most stations in Northern Ireland.

.

You could even argue the Derry/Londonderry station is in Waterside on the loyalist side of the Foyle.

As for re-openings (probably mentioned it before on another thread) how about stopping the expresses at Buggleskelly ?

 

[Firesprite]

The Station Master, Mr Porter would agree with you that expresses should stop at Buggleskelly.