Potential Bidders for the next Greater Western franchise

[ushawk]

Id like First to get it again, but i think Stagecoach would do a decent job though.

Wouldnt rule Renfe out though (never heard of them before but maybe thats a good thing, havent got a reputation in the UK).

 

[Butts]

Id like First to get it again, but i think Stagecoach would do a decent job though.

Wouldnt rule Renfe out though (never heard of them before but maybe thats a good thing, havent got a reputation in the UK).

Am I correct in assuming that First in their various guises are at the moment the largest operator in the UK.

If this is true should their costs be lower due to "economies of scale" ie they can order a mass of new stock and distribute it amongst their operations at a lower cost than competitors ?

 

[222007]

I think DB would be a good choice but only as XcDriver says so i can use my staff passes purely selfish

 

[Eagle]

Arriva DB - Again, Just like National Express, No Thanks! Especially after the debacle of XC - Working Wifi anyone?

What about that other Arriva franchise, Chiltern Railways? They've done quite well, I hear... And look at their OAO operation, Grand Central!

(removes tongue from cheek)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stagecoach. They haven't got enough franchises.

This is the amount of franchises (and OAOs for reference) owned by each group:

            Full Half OAOs
Arriva      3    1    1       (ATW, Chi, XC; LO; GC)
First       3    1    1       (FCC, FGW, SR; TPE; FHT)
Stagecoach  2    1    0       (EMT, SWT; VWC)
Abellio     1    2    0       (GA; Mer, Nor)
Nat Ex      1    0    0       (c2c)
DOR         1    0    0       (EC)
Keolis      0    4    0       (LM, SE, Sou, TPE)
Go-Ahead    0    3    0       (LM, SE, Sou)
Serco       0    2    0       (Mer, Nor)
Virgin RG   0    1    0       (VWC)
MTR         0    1    0       (LO)
BAA         0    0    1       (HX)

 

[Ivo]

This is the amount of franchises (and OAOs for reference) owned by each group:

            Full Half OAOs
Arriva      3    1    1
First       3    1    1
Stagecoach  2    1    0
Abellio     1    2    0
Nat Ex      1    0    0
DOR         1    0    0
Keolis      0    4    0
Go-Ahead    0    3    0
Serco       0    2    0
Virgin RG   0    1    0
MTR         0    1    0
BAA         0    0    1

What about Heathrow Connect? Do they not count as half an OAO, taking First ahead of DB/Arriva?

 

[Eagle]

What about Heathrow Connect? Do they not count as half an OAO, taking First ahead of DB/Arriva?

Heathrow Connect is technically a joint service run by HX and FGW, rather than a separate TOC.

 

[jopsuk]

Am I correct in assuming that First in their various guises are at the moment the largest operator in the UK.

In passenger numbers I think it is Govia (Go Ahead/Keolis*)- they have the seriously busy Southeastern, Southern and London Midland franchises. First potentially have the most route miles/stations served- without even using the sleepers, you can do Penzance to Wick only using First (over several days though I'd reckon, it's a convoluted route).

 

[Eagle]

(over several days though I'd reckon, it's a convoluted route).

Penzance to London to Doncaster to Manchester to Glasgow to Inverness to Wick... could be done in two days even without an early start.

 

[Ivo]

Based on leaving Penzance on the first FGW departure after 0900 on a Monday morning and adhering to official connection times:

Penzance.. 1000 - 1524 London Pad
London KX. 1850 - 2027 .Doncaster
Doncaster. 2142 - 2302 Manc'r Pic
Manc'r Pic 0633 - 0945 .Glasgow C
Glasgow QS 1010 - 1325 .Inverness
Inverness. 1359 - 1819 ......Wick

 

[313103]

I hope that DB Arriva win it more or less for the same reason as XC Driver.

I do not want first to win it their refurbishment of the HST interior is the worst in the country. Lighting is too bright even though the lights are on half lighting. The seats are the worst all you see is grey everywhere because they have crammed in more seats and taken away most of the tables, taken away half of the toilets, taken away most the buffet cars. It is worst then flying Ryanair at times. Realibility issues still occur especially on runs to and from South Wales.
The next time i travel to Port Talbot it will be routed London Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill, Birmingham New Street to Cardiff Central then Cardif central to Port Talbot Parkway. Even if i have to suffer a vomiter it will be better then on a FGW 125.

 

[Ivo]

Be honest people; does anyone who is *NOT* a current employee of DB/Arriva want them to win the franchise? And among those who are, do any of you want them to win for a reason other than free travel?

 

[Eagle]

This is the amount of franchises (and OAOs for reference) owned by each group:

Just for fun, I repeated this for as it was in 2002/3:

            Full Half OAOs
Nat Ex      9    0    0       (c2c, CT, GX, MML, Sil, SR, W&B, WAGN, Wsx)
First       3    0    0       (FGE, FGW, FNW)
Arriva      2    0    0       (ATM, ATN)
Go-Ahead    1    2    0       (Tha; SCT, TL)
Stagecoach  1    2    0       (SWT; VWC, VXC)
GB Railways 1    0    1       (Ang, HT)
Connex      1    0    0       (CSE)
Laing       1    0    0       (Chi)
Sea Cont    1    0    0       (GNER)
Virgin RG   0    2    0       (VWC, VXC)
Keolis      0    2    0       (SCT, TL)
BAA         0    0    1       (HX)

 

[Flamingo]

I hope that DB Arriva win it more or less for the same reason as XC Driver.

I do not want first to win it their refurbishment of the HST interior is the worst in the country. Lighting is too bright even though the lights are on half lighting. The seats are the worst all you see is grey everywhere because they have crammed in more seats and taken away most of the tables, taken away half of the toilets, taken away most the buffet cars. It is worst then flying Ryanair at times. Realibility issues still occur especially on runs to and from South Wales.
The next time i travel to Port Talbot it will be routed London Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill, Birmingham New Street to Cardiff Central then Cardif central to Port Talbot Parkway. Even if i have to suffer a vomiter it will be better then on a FGW 125.

Apart from the fact that almost everything in your post is either subjective (too bright) or simply wrong (taken away half of the toilets, taken away buffet cars), reliability issues on HST's are good, the reliability issues involved in getting to and from South Wales are down to Network Rail, that won't alter with the franchise.

Enjoy your free travel, glad you have the time to spare for the jolly.

 

[Minilad]

Be honest people; does anyone who is *NOT* a current employee of DB/Arriva want them to win the franchise? And among those who are, do any of you want them to win for a reason other than free travel?

Does anyone want DB not to win the franchise for any other reason than they hate Voyagers

 

[Eagle]

Does anyone want DB not to win the franchise for any other reason than they hate Voyagers

Yes, those Voyagers that DB invented, and will be imposed on any franchise that DB gets its hands on... :roll:

 

[embers25]

omg not NEX ever ever ever ever

Surely not Stagecoach either as the would give them a total monopoly of West Country services and is likely to result in increased prices on Waterloo services as they wouldn't want to compete with themselves from Exeter.

 

[Eagle]

Surely not Stagecoach either as the would give them a total monopoly of West Country services...

Not this argument again...

For the last time, there is no rule against one company having a monopoly.

What about Govia having a monopoly on London to Tonbridge? What about NX (formerly) having a monopoly over London to Southend? What about DB having a monopoly over Banbury to Birmingham?

Or, even better, what about all the flows that only have one TOC to start with? First monopolize London to South Wales. Virgin monopolize London to the North West. Stagecoach monopolize London to the East Midlands.

 

[route:oxford]

Erm, not DB thanks.

It would give them a complete monopoly on all services at Oxford - just when DB are working to introduce the route to Marylebone.

 

[Eagle]

It would give them a complete monopoly on all services at Oxford ...

So? Stagecoach have a complete monopoly over all services at Waterloo...

 

[BestWestern]

My personal preference, as an existing employee within the franchise, would be for First to retain the operation. Yes, they have their imperfections, but then so will anybody running such a large and complex rail operation. Much effort has been put into improvements, and for the main part my feeling is that it has worked. The fleet is in good shape overall, and the company continues to make every effort to run a decent service. There are frequent infrastructure issues of varying sorts, and the level of rolling stock available is less than ideal, both of which present considerable challenges at times, but on the whole things aren't bad.

As for the alternative bidders, I would be very surprised if NatEx gets anywhere near it, and I would think it too high profile an operation to let an unknown Spanish newbie loose on it. I hope it isn't DB, since there is rarely a positive work spoken of them. I would imagine that Stagecoach would make a decent job of things if they won, there are possible economies to be exploited in terms of the overlap with the existing SWT operation, which may be viewed as a positive factor in their favour.

 

[Eagle]

I hope it isn't DB, since there is rarely a positive work spoken of them.

Chiltern Mainline?

London Overground?

(This is a fair comparison as DB Regio UK was the same entity as Laing Rail, just with a different name.)

 

[BestWestern]

Chiltern Mainline?

London Overground?

(This is a fair comparison as DB Regio UK was the same entity as Laing Rail, just with a different name.)

Hmm, fair point. Perhaps a fairer comment would have been that nearly all we hear of them is about their less popular operations, and their less than fulfilled staff!! (XC, Arriva Wales....)

 

[Flamingo]

My personal preference, as an existing employee within the franchise, would be for First to retain the operation. Yes, they have their imperfections, but then so will anybody running such a large and complex rail operation. Much effort has been put into improvements, and for the main part my feeling is that it has worked. The fleet is in good shape overall, and the company continues to make every effort to run a decent service. There are frequent infrastructure issues of varying sorts, and the level of rolling stock available is less than ideal, both of which present considerable challenges at times, but on the whole things aren't bad.

As for the alternative bidders, I would be very surprised if NatEx gets anywhere near it, and I would think it too high profile an operation to let an unknown Spanish newbie loose on it. I hope it isn't DB, since there is rarely a positive work spoken of them. I would imagine that Stagecoach would make a decent job of things if they won, there are possible economies to be exploited in terms of the overlap with the existing SWT operation, which may be viewed as a positive factor in their favour.

Hmm, fair point. Perhaps a fairer comment would have been that nearly all we hear of them is about their less popular operations, and their less than fulfilled staff!! (XC, Arriva Wales....)

Rather than bother writing my own post, can I just agree 100% with this one? (It says it better than I can)

 

[Eagle]

Hmm, fair point. Perhaps a fairer comment would have been that nearly all we hear of them is about their less popular operations, and their less than fulfilled staff!! (XC, Arriva Wales....)

Or you could say that the former Arriva side gets the bad comments (do you remember ATM and ATN?) and the former Laing side gets the good ones (even about WSMR, which as we know turned out to be a colossal waste of money...)

GC is an exception, because it was taken over a year after the merger of the two sides.

 

[313103]

Be honest people; does anyone who is *NOT* a current employee of DB/Arriva want them to win the franchise? And among those who are, do any of you want them to win for a reason other than free travel?

I have already quoted the abhorent interior of First Groups HST fleet to put me off. As well as its poor running of the South Wales route.
Missed out or overlooked no deed by me mentioning the reason for wantiing to change.

 

[Eagle]

I have already quoted the abhorent interior of First Groups HST fleet to put me off.

Of course whoever wins the franchise will still be using these exact HSTs... (although a lot will get cascaded due to electrification not long into the franchise).

 

[Ivo]

I have already quoted the abhorent interior of First Groups HST fleet to put me off. As well as its poor running of the South Wales route.
Missed out or overlooked no deed by me mentioning the reason for wantiing to change.

My apologies, but I read that as a reason for First to not retain the franchise rather than a reason for Arriva/DB to win the franchise.

 

[313103]

My apologies, but I read that as a reason for First to not retain the franchise rather than a reason for Arriva/DB to win the franchise.

No need to apologise Ivo. TBH i dont really care who wins. The proviso is to run punctual services. Try to improve on what is already in place. Not happy that First Group do not want an extension (knowing its payback time) and then want to bid for the service on its own rules and not that the DFT will set.

 

[SprinterMan]

First Group
Stagecoach
National Express
Deutsche Bahn (Arriva)
Renfe

First Group - Current operators. I think they are doing a very good job at the moment. When the Greater Western Franchise started they did some truly awful things like returning 4 153s to the ROSCO when overcrowding was a problem and taking on 142s when they were originally removed from that part of the world for being innapropriate. Removing the 180s seemed stupid at the time but was actually quite shrewd in the long run. The HST refurb gets alot of stick on here but I think it is superb, the seat-back TVs being excellent. Taking on more 150s, 153s and the remaining 180s are all great, as is the current HST lengthening programme. First Group deserve to retain IMO.

Stagecoach - Also very competent operators. SWT and EMT are both highly respected. I am not a fan of the interior colour sceheme used in EMT refurbishments, but that and the withdrawal of the 442s by SWT are my only criticisms of them (even that makes sense now, and I personally prefer 444s anyway). They did a world of good for the EMT franchise, taking better care of local services than central, and reforming meridians into more sensible lengths, making services so efficient they could afford to give a HST to EC, a godsend for them. And SWT are so good they are one of the only original privatisation TOCs left. They wouldn't be bad operators.

National Express - Really? Really? What were they thinking. It is no coincidence they were left out of the GA rebidding. I don't think people are going to forgive them for what they did to EC. They should stop messing around here and put all their efforts into retaining c2c, which they actually have a hope in hell of doing if they play their cards right. I'm not going to complain about the service they provided in East Anglia, as poor as it was, as the infrastructure wasn't their doing, but some of the things they did do just beggar belief. They create a strong and recognisable (albeit very confusing) brand in 'One' ans spend masses of cash painting trains into the new livery, then change everything because of "company image" and spend loads more money repainting trains again. They put 3 cars DMUs (170s) with miserable acceleration on runs into London causing huge overcrowding even off-peak while EMUs sat idle in the sidings. They use 317/7s on commuter runs (a 4 car 317/7 has only a few more standard class seats than a 2 car 156). They refuse to steam clean the seats of 321/4s when there are fleas living in them. They scrap the 321 refurb project and pocket the £10m set aside for it. They scrap on-train restaurant service. They should NOT be allowed to bid for any franchise except c2c IMO, as punishment for EC. We may as well encourage Connex to start bidding for franchises again. No to NX.

Arriva/DB - As much stick as they get on here, they are really not bad. Arriva Trains Wales are very good IMO, aside from an apparent refusal to fit Wifi. The 158 refurb they are doing is brilliant, and WAG1 is very nice. XC are really no worse than VXC were, removing the buffets from the voyagers was a neccessary evil like when Anglia removed the buffets from the 170s and reintroducing HSTs was a nice touch. Removing tilt from the Super Voyagers (making them voyagers I suppose, as the tilt was the only "super" thing about them) is actually quite clever because it has saved everyone money and improved reliability, and the XC livery is one of the best in the country. (Side note: do the voyagers still have red roofs like Virgin ones and XC have just stopped cleaning them? A bit cheeky, but NX did that with 170270) I'm not sure we can count GC and Chiltern as Arriva/DB as they were both something else until recently, but are probably the best 2 TOCs in the country. Chiltern's mainline product is amazingly good.

Renfe - Spanish National Railways. No idea about them. Probably better than NX. :P

Overall I would like First Group to retain, as they are the best operator IMO, and if they retained it would save alot of money on repainting trains.

 

[BestWestern]

Overall I would like First Group to retain, as they are the best operator IMO, and if they retained it would save alot of money on repainting trains.

This is also a very good point, though probably one that the DfT aren't too fussed about - I can't stand the enormous waste every time a TOC changes hands, we need a national rail identity!

What happened to NatEx being barred from bidding for any future franchises anyway, has the Government withdrawn that condition?