Potential for reopening of the Timperley-Glazebrook line

[Altfish]

You're right. I was thinking of the inadequate heavy rail network. The Metrolink would barely meet the needs of Camberwick Green.

Don't like trams then. Hey ho!

 

[B&I]

Don't like trams then. Hey ho!

Trams are fine, when they're not used as a low speed, low capacity substitute for what were (and should be) electrified heavy rail commuter lines, and when they don't foul up the railway infrastructure of the entire region by preventing longer-distance train services using lines. Manchester really should have had the Picc-Vic Link, or something quite like it, and a proper commuter rail network.

 

[Altfish]

Trams are fine, when they're not used as a low speed, low capacity substitute for what were (and should be) electrified heavy rail commuter lines, and when they don't foul up the railway infrastructure of the entire region by preventing longer-distance train services using lines. Manchester really should have had the Picc-Vic Link, or something quite like it, and a proper commuter rail network.

Picc-Vic link would have been great...and we'd still be waiting for it now. We're still waiting for proper funding for Piccadilly improvements, Oxford Road improvements, electrification projects, etc. Pacers are due to go in 2 or 3 years - wow! progress!
"...foul up the railway infrastructure of the entire region..." can you elaborate on that, please. One of the great benefits of Metrolink was that it freed up multiple paths into Oxford Road from Deansgate.

 

[furnessvale]

Trams are fine, when they're not used as a low speed, low capacity substitute for what were (and should be) electrified heavy rail commuter lines, and when they don't foul up the railway infrastructure of the entire region by preventing longer-distance train services using lines. Manchester really should have had the Picc-Vic Link, or something quite like it, and a proper commuter rail network.

I have posted before that Picc-Vic was lost when Manchester politicians got the idea that Manchester wanted a "modern monorail" instead.
By the time they realised that monorails are only of use in Disneyland, all the available cash from central government had been scooped up by Liverpool, Newcastle and, I think, Sheffield, so Manchester had to look at trams instead.

 

[B&I]

Picc-Vic link would have been great...and we'd still be waiting for it now. We're still waiting for proper funding for Piccadilly improvements, Oxford Road improvements, electrification projects, etc. Pacers are due to go in 2 or 3 years - wow! progress!
"...foul up the railway infrastructure of the entire region..." can you elaborate on that, please. One of the great benefits of Metrolink was that it freed up multiple paths into Oxford Road from Deansgate.

While at the same time causing CLC services to Chester to have to take a magical mystery tour via Stockport, adding further to congestion there. Rather than learning from.this schoolboy error, TfGM, who seem to want to turn most of the northwest into dormitory suburbs without any idea about the transport infrastructure that would be needed to do that, now propose repeating it on the New Mills Central and Atherton lines, and by the sounds of things on the CLC Warrington route too.

I appreciate the financial and ideological constraints that Metrolink arose from. However, this should not be an excuse to pretend that it is actually desirable to replace whole swathes of the heavy rail network with it, regardless of the impact on longer distance services.

 

[B&I]

I have posted before that Picc-Vic was lost when Manchester politicians got the idea that Manchester wanted a "modern monorail" instead.
By the time they realised that monorails are only of use in Disneyland, all the available cash from central government had been scooped up by Liverpool, Newcastle and, I think, Sheffield, so Manchester had to look at trams instead.

I have posted before that Picc-Vic was lost when Manchester politicians got the idea that Manchester wanted a "modern monorail" instead.
By the time they realised that monorails are only of use in Disneyland, all the available cash from central government had been scooped up by Liverpool, Newcastle and, I think, Sheffield, so Manchester had to look at trams instead.

I know that the project changed shape several times, from some sort of self-contained north-south metro to the final heavy rail link plan, but out of interest, where did you learn about the monorail stuff?

I always wondered if the plan might have succeeded, even in the financial climate of the 70s, if there had been a straight tunnel by the shortest route between the environs of the 2 stations, and perhaps 1 intermediate station at Piccadilly Gardens (for ease of excavation). The elongated central section with multiple stations can't have been the cheapest.

 

[snowball]

I remember reading about a monorail plan for Manchester when I was young but my recollection is that if was from the 1960s, before Picc-Vic. So it would be interesting to know the date of the monorail plan referred to by furnessvale.

 

[furnessvale]

I remember reading about a monorail plan for Manchester when I was young but my recollection is that if was from the 1960s, before Picc-Vic. So it would be interesting to know the date of the monorail plan referred to by furnessvale.

Without research, I would have difficulty tieing down precise dates.
What I can say is that at the time, I was working as a per-way engineer in the north west. A friend of mine was seconded to the Picc-Vic scheme only to see the rug pulled from underneath it by the monorail nonsense. This would be about 1971.
It could be that the monorail idea had surfaced in the late 1960s and delayed the detailed work my friend was involved with in the early 1970s so they missed the (cash) boat.
Sorry I can't be more precise. HTH.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a monorail proposal in Modern Railway magazine circa 1965. Pretty sure the author was David Scott Hellewell, who later became one of the people behind Metrolink.

 

[Altfish]

While at the same time causing CLC services to Chester to have to take a magical mystery tour via Stockport, adding further to congestion there. Rather than learning from.this schoolboy error, TfGM, who seem to want to turn most of the northwest into dormitory suburbs without any idea about the transport infrastructure that would be needed to do that, now propose repeating it on the New Mills Central and Atherton lines, and by the sounds of things on the CLC Warrington route too.

I appreciate the financial and ideological constraints that Metrolink arose from. However, this should not be an excuse to pretend that it is actually desirable to replace whole swathes of the heavy rail network with it, regardless of the impact on longer distance services.

You really don't like trams do you.
You've just been complaining that they don't want to do anything with Warrington - at least be consistent.
Must say the Connection to Stockport from the mid-Cheshire line has suited me and many others well, I'll be using it this morning to catch a Wolverhampton train from Stockport.
You obviously know a lot about TfGM as even the most outlandish proposals for Tram-Train don't include New Mills and Atherton. Marple and Glossop are the only ones I've heard.

 

[furnessvale]

You really don't like trams do you.
You've just been complaining that they don't want to do anything with Warrington - at least be consistent.
Must say the Connection to Stockport from the mid-Cheshire line has suited me and many others well, I'll be using it this morning to catch a Wolverhampton train from Stockport.
You obviously know a lot about TfGM as even the most outlandish proposals for Tram-Train don't include New Mills and Atherton. Marple and Glossop are the only ones I've heard.

New Mills Central was certainly selected as a full metro line using one of the two available lines, leaving the other line as a single line to be shared by Sheffield services and freight.

 

[B&I]

You really don't like trams do you.
You've just been complaining that they don't want to do anything with Warrington - at least be consistent.
Must say the Connection to Stockport from the mid-Cheshire line has suited me and many others well, I'll be using it this morning to catch a Wolverhampton train from Stockport.
You obviously know a lot about TfGM as even the most outlandish proposals for Tram-Train don't include New Mills and Atherton. Marple and Glossop are the only ones I've heard.

If I didn't like trams I'd say so. Trams are fine, as used in just about every other country in the world that has them ie on streets, or on reservations close to streets. It is only in this country that we decided to replace heavy rail with trams, because we had a government reluctant to invest properly in public transport.

I suggested that Manchester should have a proper, frequent commuter service to Warrington. I didn't say I wanted the heavy rail lne clogged with a slow, low capacity tram train. Like TfGM, you don't seem capable of thinking about public transpirt anywhere round Manchester unless Metrolink somehow makes an appearance.

There have been proposals for trams to Wigan via Atherton. The proposal for Metrolinkifying Rose Hill Marple involved reducing the line to New Mills Central to 1 track in the vicinity of Romilley, mostly it seems because TfGM's planners can't wrap their heads around the less disruptive option of trams running on heavy rail on the short shared stretch.

I am glad to hear that the direct service into Stockport is so convenient for you. Of course, nothing would have prevented heavy rail services being re-instituted on that line even if Manchester-Altrincham had remained heavy rail.

 

[PR1Berske]

You're being very harsh, I have to say. Getting Leigh back on the railway map should have been trams, far cheaper in the long run than traditional heavy rail, and far better than the misguided guided busway, or whatever unfortunate events has befallen the good people of southern Wigan.

 

[najaB]

You're being very harsh, I have to say. Getting Leigh back on the railway map should have been trams, far cheaper in the long run than traditional heavy rail, and far better than the misguided guided busway, or whatever unfortunate events has befallen the good people of southern Wigan.

Edinburgh has demonstrated that guided busway can be converted to tramline.

 

[PR1Berske]

Edinburgh has demonstrated that guided busway can be converted to tramline.

Edinburgh has proven a lot about trams in general, and not all of it good!

 

[najaB]

Edinburgh has proven a lot about trams in general, and not all of it good!

To be fair, most of the problems were management rather than engineering/technical.

 

[edwin_m]

It is only in this country that we decided to replace heavy rail with trams, because we had a government reluctant to invest properly in public transport.

If you go to Karlsruhe in Germany there are tram-trains running on routes of over 100km, mostly former train services which have had an increase in frequency and through service to the city centre, resulting in big increases in useage.

The proposal for Metrolinkifying Rose Hill Marple involved reducing the line to New Mills Central to 1 track in the vicinity of Romilley, mostly it seems because TfGM's planners can't wrap their heads around the less disruptive option of trams running on heavy rail on the short shared stretch.

That was the original proposal in about 1990. Tram-train, with shared running as you suggest, has been the preferred option since 2004 to my knowledge (I've been involved in at least three feasibility studies since then). I'm not aware of any suggestion of running trams or tram-trains as far out as New Mills.

 

[F2002]

Apprently whats left of the track bed at the skelton junction end is now used as a siding? I've not see anything use it but the colour of the rails suggest it is being used.

I think in 2006 there was a plan to re-open the line for use regarding the recycling plant near Partington but that fell through

 

[B&I]

If you go to Karlsruhe in Germany there are tram-trains running on routes of over 100km, mostly former train services which have had an increase in frequency and through service to the city centre, resulting in big increases in useage.


That was the original proposal in about 1990. Tram-train, with shared running as you suggest, has been the preferred option since 2004 to my knowledge (I've been involved in at least three feasibility studies since then). I'm not aware of any suggestion of running trams or tram-trains as far out as New Mills.

I suspect the Germans implemented tram-train as a resoonse to a specific need in a relatively small city, rather than to avoid giving an urban area of 2.8 million people a proper commuter rail service.

I have seen somewhere a proposal involving singling the heavy rail line, and a single tram line, between Romilley andbthe junction for Rose Hill. There is precedent for such an arse-witted idea between Navigation Rd and Stockport, and on that stretch of the Oldham line where Metrolink negotiates a chicane to allow the occasional train in and out of a waste depot. TfL seem to hate heavy rail so much that they cannot abide the notion of their lovely trams coming into contact with it.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect the Germans implemented tram-train as a resoonse to a specific need in a relatively small city, rather than to avoid giving an urban area of 2.8 million people a proper commuter rail service.

I have seen somewhere a proposal involving singling the heavy rail line, and a single tram line, between Romilley andbthe junction for Rose Hill. There is precedent for such an arse-witted idea between Navigation Rd and Stockport, and on that stretch of the Oldham line where Metrolink negotiates a chicane to allow the occasional train in and out of a waste depot. TfL seem to hate heavy rail so much that they cannot abide the notion of their lovely trams coming into contact with it.

Tram-train would avoid any of these situations that you don't like ... and yet you don't seem to be in favour of tram-train. So do you have a better solution?

 

[B&I]

Retaining and improving heavy rail networks with fast, high capacity vehicles? If, for some reason, a metropolitan area of 2.8 million people does not justify that, as it would in any other advanced country, then I would prefer tram-trains over TfGM's apparent preference for wrecking capacity not just on tramified lines, but on non-tramified lines as well.

Just to repeat, I have no problem with trams in their proper place, as they are used in virtually every other country in the world where they are used - i.e. at street level, within urban areas, preferrably in reservations. What I object to is them being used as an inferior heavy rail substitute, because successive governments are incapable of investing in infrastructure in our provincal cities.

 

[geoffk]

It's unusual for a passenger train to be "looped" as even with the best signalling it would have a wait of 5min or so. I understand a late-running CLC train could be looped at Glazebrook or (westbound) can take the slow line at South Parkway so the following fast can overtake. But it's still a critical route with a lot of potential for late trains to delay others.

Northern stoppers towards Liverpool do get looped at Glazebrook and this happened to me yesterday. If fact two successive trains were looped to allow late-running EMR trains to pass. The guard said this is not uncommon. I agree that getting Trafford Park freights out of Oxford Road/Piccadilly would be a great benefit but am struggling to see how it can be done as the CLC is basically "full". Maybe a swing bridge over/tunnel under the Ship Canal to join the Weaste branch to Eccles!

 

[edwin_m]

Northern stoppers towards Liverpool do get looped at Glazebrook and this happened to me yesterday. If fact two successive trains were looped to allow late-running EMR trains to pass. The guard said this is not uncommon. I agree that getting Trafford Park freights out of Oxford Road/Piccadilly would be a great benefit but am struggling to see how it can be done as the CLC is basically "full". Maybe a swing bridge over/tunnel under the Ship Canal to join the Weaste branch to Eccles!

It may be more likely to happen in the nearly two years since the post you quoted.

The other problem for freight is that the CLC doesn't go anywhere except Liverpool, and even if it could get out of Trafford westbound it would have to reverse somewhere around Edge Hill and head back east. A connecting curve to the WCML at Warrington has been suggested on various threads but doesn't look easy.

 

[Geeves]

In my experience it seems the decision to loop trains, especially late running passenger trains where you have multiple operators (or even sometimes just a single one), is out of the signallers control - unless they are specifically asked by the a TOC for regulation. In the case of the CLC and the Glazebrook loop, the majority of the trains are usually late anyway so it wouldn't make much difference, so it doesn't seem they bother often. I would imagine if Network Rail looped an on time stopper for a late running express they would also be liable for a claim from the TOC for the bill. The wonders of the modern railway system.

 

[najaB]

I would imagine if Network Rail looped an on time stopper for a late running express they would also be liable for a claim from the TOC for the bill.

But then you'd have two late trains...

 

[Tomnick]

In my experience it seems the decision to loop trains, especially late running passenger trains where you have multiple operators (or even sometimes just a single one), is out of the signallers control - unless they are specifically asked by the a TOC for regulation. In the case of the CLC and the Glazebrook loop, the majority of the trains are usually late anyway so it wouldn't make much difference, so it doesn't seem they bother often. I would imagine if Network Rail looped an on time stopper for a late running express they would also be liable for a claim from the TOC for the bill. The wonders of the modern railway system.

As others have said, it’s pretty common for the stopper to be looked at Glazebrook, on occasions for both the Norwich and the following semi-fast to pass. It’s entirely within the signalman’s control - sometimes Control will intervene and ask for things to be done a certain way, but rarely in a case like this in my experience. There’ll sometimes be a specific regulating policy, e.g. recess the stopper if it’ll be delayed by fewer than x minutes. The delay minutes (“the bill”) will be attributed to whatever the root cause of the delay to the express was.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

As others have said, it’s pretty common for the stopper to be looked at Glazebrook, on occasions for both the Norwich and the following semi-fast to pass. It’s entirely within the signalman’s control - sometimes Control will intervene and ask for things to be done a certain way, but rarely in a case like this in my experience. There’ll sometimes be a specific regulating policy, e.g. recess the stopper if it’ll be delayed by fewer than x minutes. The delay minutes (“the bill”) will be attributed to whatever the root cause of the delay to the express was.

A couple of times in many years of Liverpool<->Manchester commuting I saw CLC stoppers looped at Hunts Cross to allow an eastbound express to pass. On one weird occasion the stopper was on the main line while the express went through the loop. And only slightly off topic: Yesterday I was on a Crewe - Lime Street stopper looped at Earlestown for a Trans-Pennine express to pass.

 

[Tomnick]

A couple of times in many years of Liverpool<->Manchester commuting I saw CLC stoppers looped at Hunts Cross to allow an eastbound express to pass. On one weird occasion the stopper was on the main line while the express went through the loop. And only slightly off topic: Yesterday I was on a Crewe - Lime Street stopper looped at Earlestown for a Trans-Pennine express to pass.

I’ve never seen the stopper regulated at Hunts Cross (it’s usually put away on the slow lines between Wavertree Jn and Allerton, although once it ran fast line whilst we were put around it slow line - it doesn’t really make much difference time-wise). I guess it’s pretty difficult to do it at Hunts Cross without interfering with Merseyrail - presumably that’s why the fast was put over the electric line in your example, so that it wasn’t blocked for so long?