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Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

craigybagel

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Historically they haven't ever had any push-pull stock equipped for DOO, so question has never arisen.

The 68 & mk5 do have the DOO equipment, but Transpennine didn't use it, as their routes were not equipped.

I would guess the mk5 DOO is 3 decades ahead of what Chiltern currently use, so if it can't pass a safety case that the older equipment (currently in use) got through then there is something wrong with the safety rules. Even grandfather rights are not supposed to ban a improved alternative.
Do the 68s have in cab CCTV monitors for the MKV DOO system? Genuine question as I don't know. I know they had mods to work with the CAF TCMS system on the MKVs but I don't know if that includes the DOO cameras?
If not it's relying on the existing Chiltern platform based DOO infrastructure being compatible - which it almost certainly isn't.
 
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172007

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Do the 68s have in cab CCTV monitors for the MKV DOO system? Genuine question as I don't know. I know they had mods to work with the CAF TCMS system on the MKVs but I don't know if that includes the DOO cameras?
If not it's relying on the existing Chiltern platform based DOO infrastructure being compatible - which it almost certainly isn't.
As I have said already the class 172 and 350 Fleets have had DCO cameras and in cab equipment retro fitted in the last few years.

Clearly there is or has been in the last few years a DaFT budget for such things. I immagine that the in loco solution for the MK5 DCO cameras are clearly available and immagine fitting them is relatively straight forward If not already there but blanked physically or by software.
 

craigybagel

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As I have said already the class 172 and 350 Fleets have had DCO cameras and in cab equipment retro fitted in the last few years.

Clearly there is or has been in the last few years a DaFT budget for such things. I immagine that the in loco solution for the MK5 DCO cameras are clearly available and immagine fitting them is relatively straight forward If not already there but blanked physically or by software.
Oh I'm sure it could be done - it's just that lots of people are stating as fact that the 68s are already set up for DOO. They may well be, but are they already set up in such a way that they can work the Chiltern lines as DOO?

I seem to recall a big cause of the reliability issues and the delays into service with the MKVs was getting the 68 to talk to the MKVs correctly - and that was without a requirement for the drivers to close the doors.
 

warwickshire

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Oh I'm sure it could be done - it's just that lots of people are stating as fact that the 68s are already set up for DOO. They may well be, but are they already set up in such a way that they can work the Chiltern lines as DOO?

I seem to recall a big cause of the reliability issues and the delays into service with the MKVs was getting the 68 to talk to the MKVs correctly - and that was without a requirement for the drivers to close the doors.
However due to risks of reliability on the locomotives and them failing, say again for
Five hours, driver in locomotive, or trackside awaiting rescue loco, no one in train, to reassure the passengers, information systems fail, Hour or so in, high risk of self evacuation, driver than has a very unpleasant and a situation gone out of control.
So obviously needs a guard on board.
Probably ie driver open. Guard close.
Like with the 168/165 on Chiltern.
 

12LDA28C

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Historically they haven't ever had any push-pull stock equipped for DOO, so question has never arisen.

The 68 & mk5 do have the DOO equipment, but Transpennine didn't use it, as their routes were not equipped.

I would guess the mk5 DOO is 3 decades ahead of what Chiltern currently use, so if it can't pass a safety case that the older equipment (currently in use) got through then there is something wrong with the safety rules. Even grandfather rights are not supposed to ban a improved alternative.

Your post seems rather confused. What DOO equipment do the 68s and Mk5s have? Bodyside cameras? In-cab monitors? If they have these then what route-based equipment is required exactly? Either the stock is equipped with these features, or the stations will have mirrors, monitors etc but not both.

What I'm saying is that changes to Chiltern's safety case would need to be made to allow LHCS to be worked DOO, as that is not the current method of operation and has never been required before.
 

craigybagel

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Your post seems rather confused. What DOO equipment do the 68s and Mk5s have? Bodyside cameras? In-cab monitors? If they have these then what route-based equipment is required exactly? Either the stock is equipped with these features, or the stations will have mirrors, monitors etc but not both.

What I'm saying is that changes to Chiltern's safety case would need to be made to allow LHCS to be worked DOO, as that is not the current method of operation and has never been required before.
Having just checked some photos on Google, having seen a MkV rake at Longsight earlier which aroused my suspicions, it would appear that these sets don't have bodyside cameras fitted - and I'd be amazed if the platform monitors/mirrors on the Chiltern line are in the right position for a driver to see them - especially if they're in the loco.
 

Bletchleyite

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Having just checked some photos on Google, having seen a MkV rake at Longsight earlier which aroused my suspicions, it would appear that these sets don't have bodyside cameras fitted - and I'd be amazed if the platform monitors/mirrors on the Chiltern line are in the right position for a driver to see them - especially if they're in the loco.

Would that not just be a case of working out the optimal stopping position?
 

Philip

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Would it not be easier for Chiltern to recruit more London guards to allow the mk5 sets to be used without DOO?
 

craigybagel

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Would that not just be a case of working out the optimal stopping position?
That would depend on whether or not there is one. I know with the 175s that were also frequently suggested as an option for Chiltern it would be physically impossible to view the monitors as there is pretty much no sideways view from the drivers seat. It wouldn't surprise me if in a 68 it's similarly impossible to position yourself so that you can see the monitors from the seat.
 

12LDA28C

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Would that not just be a case of working out the optimal stopping position?

The view from a Class 68 cab window is not sufficient to clearly see DOO mirrors or monitors. Also the braking on a 68 is rather different to a DMU and stopping in the exact position to align with DOO equipment would be quite tricky.

Would it not be easier for Chiltern to recruit more London guards to allow the mk5 sets to be used without DOO?

More expensive but yes, certainly easier.
 
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craigybagel

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However due to risks of reliability on the locomotives and them failing, say again for
Five hours, driver in locomotive, or trackside awaiting rescue loco, no one in train, to reassure the passengers, information systems fail, Hour or so in, high risk of self evacuation, driver than has a very unpleasant and a situation gone out of control.
So obviously needs a guard on board.
Probably ie driver open. Guard close.
Like with the 168/165 on Chiltern.
Whilst I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, it's probably venturing into the whole DOO debate in general.
Would it not be easier for Chiltern to recruit more London guards to allow the mk5 sets to be used without DOO?
More likely expand the existing depots at Banbury and Moor Street then go through the cost of opening a new depot from scratch in Marylebone, I would have thought.
The view from a Class 68 cab window is not sufficient to clearly see DOO mirrors or monitors.
Thank you, that's what I was suspecting.
Also the braking on a 68 is rather different to a DMU and stopping in the exact position to align with DOO equipment would be quite tricky.
Indeed, as someone who does precision stopping on loco hauled stock myself I know how challenging it can be - and that's with the 2 metre tolerance our stopping points have been deemed safe for. I assume DOO monitors require a smaller tolerance than that?
 

12LDA28C

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Indeed, as someone who does precision stopping on loco hauled stock myself I know how challenging it can be - and that's with the 2 metre tolerance our stopping points have been deemed safe for. I assume DOO monitors require a smaller tolerance than that?

Yes, missing the exact stopping point by even a metre can lead to reduced sighting of DOO monitors and mean degraded dispatch is required.
 

Nym

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Yes, missing the exact stopping point by even a metre can lead to reduced sighting of DOO monitors and mean degraded dispatch is required.
I would ask why drivers can’t exact stop on a twin pipe brake when LUL drivers managed it for years to get within the CSDE loops.
 

12LDA28C

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I would ask why drivers can’t exact stop on a twin pipe brake when LUL drivers managed it for years to get within the CSDE loops.

Do you have much experience of driving Class 68 traction? Pretty sure it's a slightly different braking technique to driving LU stock.
 

warwickshire

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On Transpennie Express, for guards, how was the Mk5 despatch Process, done was it Driver Open, Guard Close, ??? Anyone know, Thank You
 

CAF397

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On Transpennie Express, for guards, how was the Mk5 despatch Process, done was it Driver Open, Guard Close, ??? Anyone know, Thank You
Driver release, Guard close.

The conductor could also release the doors from the Guards Operating Panels at all doors (after consultation with the driver). Useful when they were training, or if they wanted to keep their competence up.
 

Energy

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From this video.

Here is an image of several mk5a sets stored at Long Marston, at least 2 of which are debranded. The image is blurry as its a screenshot from a moving drone.

1717680237959.png
Image Description: Several mk5a sets are stored at Long Marston, Warwickshire. [Credit]
 

craigybagel

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Is there any chance they might end up on the Enterprise service in Ireland?
Almost certainly not. IE/NIR are planning on a brand new fleet of bi-modes for that route. It wouldn't be worth the massive costs of getting the MKVs regauged and the cabs fitted out with IE equipment.
 
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In yesterday's 'Message the Manager' session with Chiltern's deputy head of train planning, he stated:
We are looking at the possibility of either 175's 222's or Mark 5's

This suggests that the Mk5s haven't yet been completely discounted for Chiltern, though it's disappointing that nobody seems to have made a decision.

Meanwhile perfectly good trains continue to gather dust.
 

172007

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In yesterday's 'Message the Manager' session with Chiltern's deputy head of train planning, he stated:


This suggests that the Mk5s haven't yet been completely discounted for Chiltern, though it's disappointing that nobody seems to have made a decision.

Meanwhile perfectly good trains continue to gather dust.
Immagine the 222's will have the same issue as the mk5's with DOO south of Banbury unless they only take on enough to cover the current LHCS's services as I can't see those being line up with mirrors and the door arrangement is not suitable for Chitern work.

Logic seems to suggest 175's tbh. We will see.

Massive upgrade in facilities at Stourbridge Jct stabling point has taken place over the spring suggesting that this depot has a bright future and almost as if it's ready for new trains.
 

Snow1964

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In yesterday's 'Message the Manager' session with Chiltern's deputy head of train planning, he stated:


This suggests that the Mk5s haven't yet been completely discounted for Chiltern, though it's disappointing that nobody seems to have made a decision.

Meanwhile perfectly good trains continue to gather dust.

It is a very vague quote
We are looking at the possibility of either 175's 222's or Mark 5's

The 222s likely be at least 15 months away, and probably nearer 20-30 months by time sufficient numbers are available. So that opens up question of is this urgent, or something for 2-3 years time

Appears TfW haven't returned many 175s, the dedicated thread suggests most are still leased, but parked and not yet brought up to lease return standard. Suggests these might not be available for a while either.

The mk5s are available straight away, but no decision seems to have happened, sort of suggests not in any hurry.

So seems to me Chiltern must be trending towards one of the other two (which are not yet available) rather than mk5s which they could have already taken.
The only alternative is they are playing for time hoping price falls when the others hit the market too (but of course no guarantee price will drop).
 

AndrewE

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It is a very vague quote


The 222s likely be at least 15 months away, and probably nearer 20-30 months by time sufficient numbers are available. So that opens up question of is this urgent, or something for 2-3 years time

Appears TfW haven't returned many 175s, the dedicated thread suggests most are still leased, but parked and not yet brought up to lease return standard. Suggests these might not be available for a while either.

The mk5s are available straight away, but no decision seems to have happened, sort of suggests not in any hurry.

So seems to me Chiltern must be trending towards one of the other two (which are not yet available) rather than mk5s which they could have already taken.
The only alternative is they are playing for time hoping price falls when the others hit the market too (but of course no guarantee price will drop).
or waiting to see what the next government's attitude is to increasing public transport capacity...? They might accept that a slightly higher price is worth paying for an almost immediate upgrade. It is principally for London's benefit, after all!
 

Iskra

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It is a very vague quote


The 222s likely be at least 15 months away, and probably nearer 20-30 months by time sufficient numbers are available. So that opens up question of is this urgent, or something for 2-3 years time

Appears TfW haven't returned many 175s, the dedicated thread suggests most are still leased, but parked and not yet brought up to lease return standard. Suggests these might not be available for a while either.

The mk5s are available straight away, but no decision seems to have happened, sort of suggests not in any hurry.

So seems to me Chiltern must be trending towards one of the other two (which are not yet available) rather than mk5s which they could have already taken.
The only alternative is they are playing for time hoping price falls when the others hit the market too (but of course no guarantee price will drop).
GWR and Scotrail will also get their say, which may affect pricing too. You’d think getting rid of HST’s would be the priority, with Chiltern’s needs coming after that.

222’s have been strongly rumoured for Scotrail and 175’s strongly so for GWR.
 
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dk1

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The class 222s would make a perfect fit into the Scotrail fleet to replace the 7City HSTs in terms of fleet/rolling stock numbers if I’ve got my calculations correct.

I have always thought Voyagers/Meridians would work their way onto these at some point.
 

AndrewE

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The class 222s would make a perfect fit into the Scotrail fleet to replace the 7City HSTs in terms of fleet/rolling stock numbers if I’ve got my calculations correct.

I have always thought Voyagers/Meridians would work their way onto these at some point.
except that Scotland has a decarbonisation goal and these trains are notoriously thirsty, so they would be a big step backwards. What Scotrail need are bi-mode trains to get the diesels out of the city centres and get the maximum benefits/return from their wires.
 

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