Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

bramling

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Labour did remarkably well in the 2017 election. Weren't they 17 points behind the Tories at the start of campaign? If they'd had a week longer they might well have gained enough further seats to have been able to form a coalition with the SNP.

I don't know what shape the Tories are going to be in by the time of the next election. Only three of their MPs have formally left so far, but once Brexit is settled, as I assume it will be, there will be a lot of vicious recriminations from Brexiteers claiming they've been betrayed, leading most probably to further splits. Their overall performance over the past two years doesn't offer much of a recommendation for another five years in government. (That's not to say that Labour would have managed Brexit much better - I bet Corbyn and co are really glad they didn't have to try.)

In addition, I think there will be many voters who want "change", and many younger voters will have no memory of a Labour government and little idea of a what a left-wing government might be like.

So I wouldn't be at all confident in thinking that "such a party will never win a General Election". I fear that it might.
I think there's some good points here.

One of the traps May fell into in 2017 was complacency. Not so many years ago, we could have been discussing whether the Conservatives were *ever* going to win an election ever again, yet in 2017 victory seemed to be taken for granted. In 2010 the Conservatives only won with the help of the Liberal Democrats, and in 2015 it was still only a narrow majority compared to any of the three previous Labour majorities. The difference was that Cameron fought a decent campaign and offered an attractive manifesto, whereas May did neither - in fact she appears to have actively turned off voters with things like the social care "proposals".

I do fear there are a lot of rather naïve young voters who don't realise what a Labour government would be like under Corbyn and co.
 
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Ken H

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And the problem with that, of course, that is that that leaves the Tories with no effective opposition, because such a party will never win a General Election.

And we all know what happens when the Tories govern unopposed.
I dunno. I think the tories are only a few point up on labour. I think many regard all of liblabcon as a amorphous blob of uselessness
 

bramling

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I dunno. I think the tories are only a few point up on labour. I think many regard all of liblabcon as a amorphous blob of uselessness
Yes it’s rather concerning how many people are expressing the view “I really don’t want to vote for any of the parties at the moment”. Whether this view would extend as far as an election is an unknown, old habits may well die hard.

Personally I’m not happy with the performance of the Conservatives, but I’d vote for them as the lesser of evils. Labour send a shiver through my spine at the moment, there’s an increasingly unsavoury odour coming off them.
 

Jonny

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Well, I've ^heard ^ - well, seen - on social media - the "independent Group" being described as...

"Undemocratic
Self
Serving
Remainer" party.

Oh, and I think that USSR is an apt description for the so-called Independent group. Especially if you define the other USSR (Soviet Russia) as being worse and/or even more evil than the Nazis, which the USSR generally was, at least at the same time as nazi Germany was in effect (and until at least the 1970s for that matter).
 

HH

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Well, I've ^heard ^ - well, seen - on social media - the "independent Group" being described as...

"Undemocratic
Self
Serving
Remainer" party.

Oh, and I think that USSR is an apt description for the so-called Independent group. Especially if you define the other USSR (Soviet Russia) as being worse and/or even more evil than the Nazis, which the USSR generally was, at least at the same time as nazi Germany was in effect (and until at least the 1970s for that matter).
To equate the TIGgers to Stalin suggest that the places you visit on social media are full of Monster Raving Loonies.
 

tony_mac

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I think that USSR is an apt description for the so-called Independent group. Especially if you define the other USSR (Soviet Russia) as being worse and/or even more evil than the Nazis,
You think it's an apt description that they are 'even more evil than the Nazis'?
The mind boggles!
 

Kite159

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To equate the TIGgers to Stalin suggest that the places you visit on social media are full of Monster Raving Loonies.
Although reading up on some posts as one of the Corbyn fanboys has had their twitter account suspended I would agree that some are a bit looney.

Especially the one who sounds like he blocks anybody who has a different opinion on things than his narrow mind.
 

HH

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There's loonies at both extremes. In fact you have to be a bit loony to be at the extremes IMO.
 

DarloRich

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Well, I've ^heard ^ - well, seen - on social media - the "independent Group" being described as...

"Undemocratic
Self
Serving
Remainer" party.

Oh, and I think that USSR is an apt description for the so-called Independent group. Especially if you define the other USSR (Soviet Russia) as being worse and/or even more evil than the Nazis, which the USSR generally was, at least at the same time as nazi Germany was in effect (and until at least the 1970s for that matter).
eeerrrrrmmmmmmmmmm - is that your considered view or are you simply reporting a view seen elsewhere?
 

Jonny

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eeerrrrrmmmmmmmmmm - is that your considered view or are you simply reporting a view seen elsewhere?
Somewhere between the two; it could be applied to a lot of authoritarian or para-authoritarian politicians - although I think the term State-ist could be used to describe both the new grouping, Labour, the Lib Dems and just about every dictatorship ever...
 

DarloRich

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Somewhere between the two; it could be applied to a lot of authoritarian or para-authoritarian politicians - although I think the term State-ist could be used to describe both the new grouping, Labour, the Lib Dems and just about every dictatorship ever...
rrrriiiiiiiggggghhhhhhttttttt so you are comparing democratically elected politicians who will stand for re election at the next general election with people who are not elected? I think that might be a little bit wide of the mark.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I don't see it as a split, more a case of natural selection, or the trash taking itself out.
I'm sure an MP who appears to have been to a large extent driven out of the Labour Party by appalling racist, anti-semitic, abuse, will be delighted to learn that you consider her to be 'trash' :(

That sounds so in keeping with the 'kinder, gentler, politics' that Corbyn said he wanted when he became Labour leader.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I'm sure an MP who appears to have been to a large extent driven out of the Labour Party by appalling racist, anti-semitic, abuse, will be delighted to learn that you consider her to be 'trash' :(

That sounds so in keeping with the 'kinder, gentler, politics' that Corbyn said he wanted when he became Labour leader.
Assuming it is Luciana Berger (despite her being parachuted in as a candidate and having no knowledge of Liverpool) that is being referred to and disregarding the allegations as to why she left, in the eyes of not just the constituents of Wavertree but most if not all of the city of Liverpool, the heinous thing Berger did was to agree to appear on the same discussion platform as Kelvin Mackenzie - the exact same Kelvin Mackenzie who was editor of a certain Murdoch rag at the time of the Hillsborough Disaster.

Appearing on the same platform with Mackenzie is like waving a red rag to a raging bull as far as the locals of Liverpool are concerned, and hence one of the various reasons why Berger is/has (or was in the process of) been (being) deselected by the local Constituency Labour Party.
 

The Ham

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Assuming it is Luciana Berger (despite her being parachuted in as a candidate and having no knowledge of Liverpool) that is being referred to and disregarding the allegations as to why she left, in the eyes of not just the constituents of Wavertree but most if not all of the city of Liverpool, the heinous thing Berger did was to agree to appear on the same discussion platform as Kelvin Mackenzie - the exact same Kelvin Mackenzie who was editor of a certain Murdoch rag at the time of the Hillsborough Disaster.

Appearing on the same platform with Mackenzie is like waving a red rag to a raging bull as far as the locals of Liverpool are concerned, and hence one of the various reasons why Berger is/has (or was in the process of) been (being) deselected by the local Constituency Labour Party.
I would argue that being on a programme where there's someone with a differing view of what you think is kind of the point.

However, could she handled it better? Like most things, in hindsight she probably could. However Mackenzie said in 2011:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...ackenzie-on-hillsborough-coverage-lies-in-sun

Asked about any regrets over covering the story, the former editor said: "If I could revisit Hillsborough, certainly, I would do it in a different way. I would do it in the way the other newspapers did it. They basically ran the story and said 'big fury over...' and I wish I had done that, yes."
As such, there could have been anger had she had said something about it, when he had already publicly started the above.

Yes, we should never forget tragedies like Hillsborough, Herald of Free Enterprise, Marchioness, Aberfan and the like and where there's lessons to be learnt ensure that they are learned. Some tragedies, and sometimes rightly so, are more emotive than others. However that doesn't mean that old wounds should be reopened at every opportunity when people have already admitted that they acted badly (even if it did take them a long time to do so).
 

swj99

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I'm sure an MP who appears to have been to a large extent driven out of the Labour Party by appalling racist, anti-semitic, abuse, will be delighted to learn that you consider her to be 'trash' :(
I'm not aware of MPs being 'driven out' of the party in a situation like the one you've described. Has anyone produced evidence of this abuse, or is it just mud slinging, speculation and character assassination ?
 

Busaholic

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I'm not aware of MPs being 'driven out' of the party in a situation like the one you've described. Has anyone produced evidence of this abuse, or is it just mud slinging, speculation and character assassination ?
Sufficient evidence for the police to insist on providing protection for her in certain situations.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I'm not aware of MPs being 'driven out' of the party in a situation like the one you've described. Has anyone produced evidence of this abuse, or is it just mud slinging, speculation and character assassination ?
Anyone else spot the irony in someone describing Luciana Berger (along with a few colleagues) as 'trash' and then that same person a couple of posts later asking if there's any evidence of her being abused.

But yes, there does appear to be evidence of this abuse. Have a look at This Tweet for a start (Posted by Luciana so not independent, but does seem to contain genuine Twitter screenshots). Or take a look at this story about one person who was jailed for blogging abuse about her:

Guardian said:
Joshua Bonehill-Paine, 24, wrote five hate-filled blogs about Berger, the MP for Liverpool Wavertree. He variously called her a “dominatrix” and “an evil money-grabber” with a “deep-rooted hatred of men”. In one, he claimed the number of Jewish Labour MPs was a “problem”.

He illustrated his posts with offensive pictures, including a rat with Berger’s face superimposed on it, and hailed the “Filthy Jew Bitch Campaign” led by US white supremacist website Daily Stormer as “fantastically successful” after the MP was sent 2,500 tweets.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Anyone else spot the irony in someone describing Luciana Berger (along with a few colleagues) as 'trash' and then that same person a couple of posts later asking if there's any evidence of her being abused.

But yes, there does appear to be evidence of this abuse. Have a look at This Tweet for a start (Posted by Luciana so not independent, but does seem to contain genuine Twitter screenshots). Or take a look at this story about one person who was jailed for blogging abuse about her:
A quick Google of this repulsive Joshua Bonehill-Paine shows that he is an English far-right nationalist....perhaps you could have mentioned that.
 

swj99

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Anyone else spot the irony .............
I think the true irony is that those leaving the labour party are in many cases, showing their true colours (or should that be tinge ?) and providing confirmation that they were in the wrong party anyway. Almost like Blair, who was a conservative wearing the wrong colour tie.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think the true irony is that those leaving the labour party are in many cases, showing their true colours (or should that be tinge ?) and providing confirmation that they were in the wrong party anyway. Almost like Blair, who was a conservative wearing the wrong colour tie.
So, rather than just evading the point by making various other random claims, do you or do you not agree that Luciana Berger suffered appalling anti-semitic abuse? And do you or do you not believe that it's OK to refer to her as 'trash'?
 

swj99

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So, rather than just evading the point by making various other random claims, do you or do you not agree that Luciana Berger suffered appalling anti-semitic abuse? And do you or do you not believe that it's OK to refer to her as 'trash'?
To the first question, no.
As to the second, I have not referred to any individual as trash.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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So, rather than just evading the point by making various other random claims, do you or do you not agree that Luciana Berger suffered appalling anti-semitic abuse? And do you or do you not believe that it's OK to refer to her as 'trash'?
She may well have done, but the issue here is - in regard to her leaving the Labour Party - that such abuse came from members of the party. The example you gave was not from a Labour Party member. Personally, I'm sure that some members are daft enough to post online abuse, but clear facts are, I find, in short supply. Every media outlet bandies figures about without too much evidence of proof that it is from Labour Party members.
Interestingly, I recall that in the first interview in the Graun with Luciana Berger it stated that she had suffered such abuse for ten years, but didn't explain how Jeremy Corbyn managed to orchestrate such attacks before he became leader. I meant to write them a letter but forgot!
 

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