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Poundland dispute instore

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Merseysider

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http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/S-47-Actual-Bodily-Harm-(ABH).php might help.

Or: http://londoncriminalsolicitors.co.uk/violent-crimes/actual-bodily-harm-abh/

which seems to make clear it was not ABH in your case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FWIW, personally I do believe a store security guard should be able to use reasonable force to apprehend someone he reasonably believes to be engaging in theft from the store (which as you removed an item without permission with the intent to permanently deprive, I believe you technically were committing it even if in likelihood a case would not have succeeded). Otherwise that is giving carte blanche to theft. To me it would be reasonable to use something like a rugby tackle, but not to fire a weapon nor to use any more force than required for restraint once caught.
I mostly share your view on the rights of store staff on shoplifters, but I would say a rugby tackle is a bit risky due to the chance of them banging their head etc etc.

Please could you quote the relevant sections from your links? I have poor signal atm.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Please could you quote the relevant sections from your links? I have poor signal atm.

This from the second link seems best:

Actual bodily harm or ABH as it is more commonly referred to, is a slightly less serious offence than GBH. It is however, also a form of violent crime, an ABH assault which causes actual physical harm to the victim. In a nutshell therefore, an assault causing actual bodily harm is quite a serious charge even though it is slightly less so than GBH. For an ABH charge, the kind of injury the victim sustains is usually a substantial injury warranting medical attention. Loss of consciousness on account of an assault however temporary would be regarded as ABH by the law, as would bone fractures and other non-superficial cuts.

Other forms of injuries ranging from a ‘black eye’ to bruises, swelling and other minor injuries as a result of a bar brawl or scuffle for instance, will be regarded as common assault not warranting an ABH charge. If you are uncertain of the offence with which you have been or likely to be charged, you will be best advised to get in touch with us at the earliest for professional guidance. Also if you disagree with what you have been arrested for and believe that it should be the lesser offence of common assault as against ABH, give us a call today and let our dedicated criminal defence lawyers sort matters out in the most efficient manner. It is important, in case of any doubt, for some clarity to be provided here as to what constitutes an aggravated assault of ABH. If after reading this page, you remain doubtful as to the accuracy of the allegations you face, please call to speak to one of our highly experienced solicitors.
 

Merseysider

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We have established, therefore, that my last few actions were wrong.

So what about the initial dispute regarding the right (or not) to have the faulty product replaced?
 

Jonfun

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I hate to generalise, but I have genuinely seen very, very few Poundland staff who have a clue about pretty much anything. I only went in there to buy a disposable lighter off them and ping, the till has decided they need to ID me. Erm... okay?
"I can't sell that to you." "Why?" "You need to be over 25 to buy that." "Errr, why?" "Because the law says so." "No it doesn't" "Yes it does" "It's not an age restricted product" "You've got to be 25."

I gave up arguing and went to Poundworld instead.
 

yorkie

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I guess they are used to people giving up and not arguing, as most people don't want to argue over £1 (which is understandable; I wouldn't). No wonder standards are so low!

Perhaps we should be grateful to people who do take a stand, though perhaps a bit differently next time ;)
 

Merseysider

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I hate to generalise, but I have genuinely seen very, very few Poundland staff who have a clue about pretty much anything. I only went in there to buy a disposable lighter off them and ping, the till has decided they need to ID me. Erm... okay?
"I can't sell that to you." "Why?" "You need to be over 25 to buy that." "Errr, why?" "Because the law says so." "No it doesn't" "Yes it does" "It's not an age restricted product" "You've got to be 25."

I gave up arguing and went to Poundworld instead.
I believe lighters fall under 'smoking paraphanalia' and therefore cannot be sold to persons younger than 18. But you certainly don't need to be 25! :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I guess they are used to people giving up and not arguing, as most people don't want to argue over £1 (which is understandable; I wouldn't). No wonder standards are so low!

Perhaps we should be grateful to people who do take a stand, though perhaps a bit differently next time ;)
Yes, I certainly won't be so rash if there is a next time ;) I took a gamble and it paid off, but for the sake of £1 I'd probably just fill in a quick form rather than arguing it out instore. :)
 

Busaholic

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I only ever go into a Poundland store if there are three or fewer people in the queue, which is hardly ever, and even then there is always someone at the head of the queue arguing the toss or trying to pay £2 with a debit card that doesn't have that amount of credit on it: on the rare occasion when it looks like plain sailing, then the assistant will say something like 'you get two of those for a pound' to the person in front of me, adding 'I'll keep the till open while you go and get another one' and shooting me a look which says 'that'll teach you, smartass, thinking you can just come in to buy that one essential item and expect to get out in less than the statutory quarter hour' then when I eventually get served refuse to let me buy the item until I have been quizzed as to whether I'd like to buy the revolting, even by British standards, so-called chocolate spilling over from the till, and not accepting a shake of the head for an answer. For all these reasons, I'd never return an item to Poundland under any circumstances.
 

jay3562

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As far as im concerned its a basic principle of consumer protection law that if you purchased something less than 6 months ago and it has become faulty unless the seller can prove otherwise the product is assumed to have been subject to a manufacturing defect at the time of sale .

Whilst I myself would have just thrown the headphones and purchased another pair I fully agree with the OP in that a lot of stores these days seem to want to deny consumers their basic rights . Ive had numerous issues with Argos and staff at my local tescos when it comes to faulty items . Argos has their favorite trick of blaming you for the fault , then when you speak to a manager and point out their obligations under the sale of goods act they try and refer you to the manufacturer which again they have no right to do as your contract for purchasing the item is with Argos .

I believe lighters fall under 'smoking paraphanalia' and therefore cannot be sold to persons younger than 18. But you certainly don't need to be 25! :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I certainly won't be so rash if there is a next time ;) I took a gamble and it paid off, but for the sake of £1 I'd probably just fill in a quick form rather than arguing it out instore. :)

I didnt think lighters fell under smoking paraphernalia i thought that was cigarette papers and filter tips , I used to work in a supermarket and was never told specifically to check ID for Lighters , I was told for alcohol , knives , razors , fireworks , aerosol paints and other chemicals but not lighters . Either way Ive got loads of lighters here some that I bought before I was 18 and have never been ID'd to buy lighters . I dont smoke either .

No you weren't. You were entitled to a repair, though admittedly at that price most stores will just do a replacement and bin them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.
Strictly according to his statutory rights
Assuming that he did not accept the goods he was entitled to a refund which basically means he could replace them .

It might be hard however for him to argue he does not accept the goods after having them for 5 weeks which is why I would always open something and check it works when buying it .
 

Merseysider

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Right you are!
Trading Standards said:
Matches and lighters
It is not illegal to sell matches or lighters to children. However, it is recommended that you do not sell these items to children, who are unlikely to have a legitimate use for them.
But whilst a 16 year old can buy a lighter, they can't buy lighter refills... :roll:
Trading Standards said:
Cigarette lighter refills
Under the Cigarette Lighter Refill (Safety) Regulations 1999 it is an offence to supply any cigarette lighter refill canisters containing butane to anyone under the age of 18. This is because of the potential for abuse by 'sniffing' the gas, which can be extremely dangerous. See 'Cigarette lighter refills & solvents' for further details.
(source)

I had a similar experience to you with an Apple authorised charger I purchased from Tesco which subsequently began overheating no matter where it was used. They initally told me to contact the manufacturer, to which I responded in a similar manner to how you did, and eventually 'won'.
 

swj99

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So that suggests that any theft from a store can be counteracted with a citizens arrest when detained?

Regardless of what nonsense had gone on before, it was theft, wasn't it?
No. Because there is no element of dishonesty.

1 Basic definition of theft.

(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft

As an aside, I bought some bicycle inner tubes from there once. They were mostly good, but a couple of them went down because the valve cores weren't screwed in tight enough.
But the funniest part of the visit was the students in front of me in the queue, who were asked for ID because of the sex toy they wanted to buy.
 
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jay3562

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Right you are!

But whilst a 16 year old can buy a lighter, they can't buy lighter refills... :roll:

(source)

I had a similar experience to you with an Apple authorised charger I purchased from Tesco which subsequently began overheating no matter where it was used. They initally told me to contact the manufacturer, to which I responded in a similar manner to how you did, and eventually 'won'.
I was thinking of the zippo type that takes paraffin but that being said I dont think you can buy the tins of lighter fuel till you are 18 either .

As for returns . Argos for me are by far the worst serial offender , every time I have bought something faulty from there they have played hard to get with the refund or exchange so much so that I will now avoid using them if I really can . I recently moved home and an elderly relative decided to give me some argos vouchers as a "housewarming" gift . So I decided to replace my crusty old microwave and toaster . Unfortunately one of the slots on the toaster was not working when I got it home . the other one was which suggests probably a dodgy connection inside . After reading the manual to make sure it was not me being stupid I returned it to the same store I bought it from only 2 and a half hours later than when I bought it . The manager directed me to the customer service number for the manufacturer in the back pages of the manual which was obviously a premium rate number and said id have to take the issue up with the manufacturer as they cant do anything about it in store . I declined that option and pointed out their obligations under the sale of goods act as the seller of the goods . He then decided that "just this once " he could exchange it .

I understand from working in retail myself it can be frustrating as a store when your figures are effected by a large number of refunded items . However that is not the consumers fault . I also understand many retail staff aren't trained on consumer rights when it comes to refunds so blindly parrot out company policy without understanding that the customer has statutory rights in addition to the company policy . But it only takes two minutes to find out what a consumers rights are and it helps to at least understand the basics when you are dealing with customer returns .
 

Bletchleyite

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Argos for me are by far the worst serial offender , every time I have bought something faulty from there they have played hard to get with the refund or exchange so much so that I will now avoid using them if I really can .

I find that interesting, as I have generally found Argos very good with returns. Perhaps it's a local issue.
 

andrew bell

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I hate to generalise, but I have genuinely seen very, very few Poundland staff who have a clue about pretty much anything. I only went in there to buy a disposable lighter off them and ping, the till has decided they need to ID me. Erm... okay?
"I can't sell that to you." "Why?" "You need to be over 25 to buy that." "Errr, why?" "Because the law says so." "No it doesn't" "Yes it does" "It's not an age restricted product" "You've got to be 25."

I gave up arguing and went to Poundworld instead.

Most places which sell age-restricted goods (cigarettes, alcohol etc) will have what's known as challenge 25. Basically it means if you think the person buying the goods looks under 25, they need to prove they are over 18. Sounds to me the staff haven't been trained to understand that.
 

Greenback

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I've never been keen on Poundland. Their staff seem disinterested, and unknowledgeable. Perhaps this is unsurprising given that they are most probably on NMW and almost all the goods on sale are the same price. Yet I've found the staff in their competitors shops to be better, they seem friendlier and more interested in providing assistance, despite the fact they do the same sort of job for the same sort of money.

Turning to JakeF's issue, it's the sort of behaviour I wouldn't be surprised to receive myself at their shops, for the reasons I've mentioned above. Clearly the Assistant Manager was a bit clueless, and I can't help wondering why people try and make things up. I've never had a problem in saying 'I don't know' and it's quite possible to sort out a customer problem by reaching a different decision to a more junior member of staff, while still supporting them.

Like JakeF, I wouldn't be bothered about the amount of money involved, it's can be more about the principle. How far I would go myself in such a situation would depend on the circumstances, but one thing I can pretty much guarantee is that if I'm being told utter drivel in a clear attempt to fob me off in the hope I'll go away, then it becomes far more likely that I'll stand my ground!
 

Tim R-T-C

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Working in the optical profession (you know, selling glasses) we get people in who have bought glasses from cheapie unlicensed shops and online and had problems with them, but who would rather just throw them away than bother to take them back and get them sorted.

It must work as a business model, sell stuff so cheaply that people don't bother to complain if something goes wrong.

cf. Ryanair
 

crispy1978

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Sale of Goods Act would come in to play here surely?

Goods supplied were not fit for purpose, so therefore a refund or exchange seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Granted, I'm not sure of the way it was done, but you got there in the end!
 

traon

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Thanks for proving to us that quoting segments from gov.uk =/= understanding the law. This is a great thread, got a good chuckle from it.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Thanks for proving to us that quoting segments from gov.uk =/= understanding the law. This is a great thread, got a good chuckle from it.

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. That is, after all, how you learn!
 

Bodiddly

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I like you JakeF, a man willing to argue to the death over a quid! Seriously, how many people would complain about a £1 pair of earphones and demand a replacement? I simply wouldn't waste my time and money in the first place buying £1 earphones knowing full well they will be utter rubbish. You get what you pay for and all that. How many products from Poundland probably end up in the bin pretty quickly? The last thing I bought was a wooden trellis for my garden and it lasted all of two days before a gust of wind snapped it in two. My mistake for buying garbage but it never crossed my mind to try and take it back! I find Poundland good for chewing gum and sweets, that's about it.
I also agree with the comments about the staff in these shops, they really couldn't give two hoots.
 

AM9

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I like you JakeF, a man willing to argue to the death over a quid! Seriously, how many people would complain about a £1 pair of earphones and demand a replacement? I simply wouldn't waste my time and money in the first place buying £1 earphones knowing full well they will be utter rubbish. You get what you pay for and all that. How many products from Poundland probably end up in the bin pretty quickly? The last thing I bought was a wooden trellis for my garden and it lasted all of two days before a gust of wind snapped it in two. My mistake for buying garbage but it never crossed my mind to try and take it back! I find Poundland good for chewing gum and sweets, that's about it.
I also agree with the comments about the staff in these shops, they really couldn't give two hoots.

I wouldn't buy a product from a place where I couldn't spare the time to reject it. Unless the product sold was advertised as 'may not work', it should be returned. Otherwise there would be no need to ensure that any product did what it said on the can. It doesn't matter how much it cost, the description must be accurate. If the shop wishes to trade on an untruth and rely on customer apathy to get away with it they need to be pulled up. Trading standards would prefer that the public didn't just shrug their shoulders and walk away. If Poundland et al have this attitude over cheap headphones, what does that say about their cheap food items?
 

Busaholic

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How many deaths on pedestrian crossings have resulted from people asserting their right to cross and meeting drivers who had a different view? One should always exercise caution - 'cave emptor' indeed.
 

ASharpe

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As for returns . Argos for me are by far the worst serial offender , every time I have bought something faulty from there they have played hard to get with the refund or exchange so much so that I will now avoid using them if I really can . I recently moved home and an elderly relative decided to give me some argos vouchers as a "housewarming" gift . So I decided to replace my crusty old microwave and toaster . Unfortunately one of the slots on the toaster was not working when I got it home . the other one was which suggests probably a dodgy connection inside . After reading the manual to make sure it was not me being stupid I returned it to the same store I bought it from only 2 and a half hours later than when I bought it . The manager directed me to the customer service number for the manufacturer in the back pages of the manual which was obviously a premium rate number and said id have to take the issue up with the manufacturer as they cant do anything about it in store . I declined that option and pointed out their obligations under the sale of goods act as the seller of the goods . He then decided that "just this once " he could exchange it .

I find that interesting, as I have generally found Argos very good with returns. Perhaps it's a local issue.

I had a very good experience with Argos recently returning a 9 month old hammer drill. The Li-ion battery or charger had stopped working and I was given a refund with no hesitation.

I also once retuned a faulty TV remote to a Dollar Tree in Berkeley, they just said sorry and told me to take a new one. Customer services in the states is a bit better though.
 

WestCoast

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I twice returned mid-range earphones (£15ish) to Argos after they developed faults (within guarantee) and was given a replacement without question.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I fully appreciate the sense of 'principle' which can lead to an amount of time and effort which is quite disproportionate to the value of the loss, but when it is disproportionate (as in the £1 headphones), then there is little merit in pursuing it any further for its own sake.

When it can be worth pursuing a low value claim which is far below the cost of the argument, is when there are other people whose lives might be changed materially by the outcome. I'm reminded of one that has been rattling through the Scottish Courts for several years now, where the amount is (I think) £14. But the impact of the issue relates to the right to stay in the family home when the mortgage payments are in arrears, and the actual remedies which are available to a mortgage lender in certain default situations. [In that case, NRAM v CB, the balance due on the property is £9k and the last payment was £5 in 2004. The legal costs are now far greater than any of these figures, but the clarity for other lenders and borrowers in comparable positions justifies the cost in presenting the arguments leading to the decisions].
 

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I fully appreciate the sense of 'principle' which can lead to an amount of time and effort which is quite disproportionate to the value of the loss, but when it is disproportionate (as in the £1 headphones), then there is little merit in pursuing it any further for its own sake.

When it can be worth pursuing a low value claim which is far below the cost of the argument, is when there are other people whose lives might be changed materially by the outcome.....[/SIZE]].

I agree with most of what you say, and from a purely selfish view, the time that I might spend pursuing such a menial claim may not be 'cost effective' in strictly personal terms. There are however retailers out there who rely on this and just refuse to obey trading law and 'pound shops' are among them. Retaliers need to be taken to task sometimes if anything is to change.
We now live in a connected world where reputations can be aired in public, which is probably why companies like Argos have tidied their act up. I have long felt that many of those who feel that they have been ripped-off by retailers have only their own lack of action to blame.
Many decades ago, I as a father had the regular stressful task of buying school shoes for my children. The high prices charged were difficult enough to bear, but when the shoes had obvious faults that revealed themselves sometimes within days of purchasing, the retailers' denial of any responsibility and refusal to put anything right, was just an insult. Initially, I just put this down to experience, but my then wife who was less accepting once lunched into a full scale discussion over the matter. There was no shouting but speaking clearly in the presence of other potential customers seemed to do two things, 1) the manager (usually) started speaking quieter and 2) as others noticed the discussion, the manager's initial resistance subsided and became more conciliatory.
That was a great object lesson that I have since found never fails with rogue retailers, - do some preparation, argue politely and firmly, and make the position clear that you are aware of your position. If I think that the retailer will be really difficult, use the atomic solution, have the discussion when the shop is at it's fullest with plenty of potential customers around to hear it. Don't get dragged away to a quiet office. Hasn't failed yet, although the sort of retailer I normally use these days wouldn't try it on anyway.
 

Merseysider

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All this for £1.

Beggars belief, it really does.

:roll:
Thanks for your sarcastic comment, which adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Any more immature eye-rolling to come?

Anyway, DaveNewcastle and AM9, I largely agree with what you have written. Bear in mind, I didn't expect this to unfold the way it did, and consume so much time. It should have been a straight swap; the queues were quiet, there were plenty of replacements in stock and I had 10 minutes to spare. If it had taken 30 seconds the time:money ratio would have been a lot better.

I imagine a lot of people who 'waste' £1 on crappy goods don't bother to chase it up when they break. That probably adds up to thousands of pounds 'lost' to the retailers.
 

Mojo

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All this for £1.

Beggars belief, it really does.

:roll:
I agree. All that for £1. I mean, what is £1 to a company that reported a half-yearly profit of £9.3 Million? :roll:
 

Bodiddly

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I agree. All that for £1. I mean, what is £1 to a company that reported a half-yearly profit of £9.3 Million? :roll:

Most of that profit made from junk. Easily breakable and non refundable!
Also, if you are going to complain about getting sold trash make sure you speak to a senior member of staff. I fear speaking to one of the till staff will start you off on the wrong foot and you may lose the rag at their attitude.
 
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meridian2

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A drop in the ocean.

No amount of gnashing on here is going to make Poundland loose sleep; if anything, wibbling about it on a Railforum is a totally inefficient waste of time. If the laws mean so much to you, deal with it privately.


I sympathise with you, I really do, but what do you want people on here to do about it?
 
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