Power output request - newish EMUs and DMUs

[Bevan Price]

Thanks for the corrections, I will include them when I next update the files.

Now updated, original versions of dmu files replaced by new versions.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks - some interesting hp per ton comparisons. A Eurostar 373 (10.9) is almost the same as a deceased MerseyRail class 502 3 car (10.4) from 1939! or did I miss something? I would have thought that a High Speed Eurostar would have been a factor of 2 or 3 times a 70mph 1939 EMU.

I was also surprised - perhaps the data I found is incorrect, but more than one source agreed with what I found.

 

[37057]

According to other discussions the “eco mode” has been disabled in recent years.

Nope - Not true.

 

[hexagon789]

According to other discussions the “eco mode” has been disabled in recent years.

That's interesting because I'm sure units were still on Eco Mode in some fairly recent cab views on YouTube, such as those by Don Coffey

 

[hexagon789]

A 397 weighs 192t in working order.

Quite impressive, an average 38.4t per car not that different to a Class 158.

Surely the unleashed power output of a DC Emu such as a 450, in terms of hardware fitted, is 2000 kW. The fact that Network Rail cannot allow that to happen is a separate issue?

Yes, 1000kW per motor car. I forget what they derate to but I believe they start tailing off at 15-25mph depending on current draw.

 

[driver9000]

That's interesting because I'm sure units were still on Eco Mode in some fairly recent cab views on YouTube, such as those by Don Coffey

Eco mode on the 185 can deactivated in the TMS by the Driver as necessary .

 

[hexagon789]

Eco mode on the 185 can deactivated in the TMS by the Driver as necessary .

But some services are still normally run on Eco-mode though, with it being disabled presumably to recover lost time?

 

[driver9000]

But some services are still normally run on Eco-mode though, with it being disabled presumably to recover lost time?

It's entirely down to the choice of the Driver and Eco mode is not mandatory. When a unit is started up Eco defaults to active but it takes about 10 seconds to deactivate it in the TMS. I never used it.

 

[hexagon789]

It's entirely down to the choice of the Driver and Eco mode is not mandatory. When a unit is started up Eco defaults to active but it takes about 10 seconds to deactivate it in the TMS. I never used it.

Ah, I assumed that expect for the Anglo-Scottish services, the other routes were normally worked on Eco-Mode rather than it being a purely driver choice. Previous posts and threads relating to Eco-mode gave that impression.

 

[driver9000]

Ah, I assumed that expect for the Anglo-Scottish services, the other routes were normally worked on Eco-Mode rather than it being a purely driver choice. Previous posts and threads relating to Eco-mode gave that impression.

Some Drivers still use it and there was an incentive scheme to encourage the use of Eco but it only applied to 185s. 350s and the new fleet weren't included in the scheme. You certainly noticed the missing engine on the Anglo-Scottish services.

 

[hexagon789]

Some Drivers still use it and there was an incentive scheme to encourage the use of Eco but it only applied to 185s. 350s and the new fleet weren't included in the scheme. You certainly noticed the missing engine on the Anglo-Scottish services.

I imagine you can still attain 100 on two engines on the flat(?), but I would think the climbing of Shap and Beattock must've lost time in such situations

 

[driver9000]

I imagine you can still attain 100 on two engines on the flat(?), but I would think the climbing of Shap and Beattock must've lost time in such situations

Yes they could still easily attain 100mph just slower dragging a dead weight around. They would lose speed climbing Shap and Beattock.

 

[D365]

Nope - Not true.

That's interesting because I'm sure units were still on Eco Mode in some fairly recent cab views on YouTube, such as those by Don Coffey

Probably just the usual forum speculation then.

Some Drivers still use it and there was an incentive scheme to encourage the use of Eco but it only applied to 185s. 350s and the new fleet weren't included in the scheme. You certainly noticed the missing engine on the Anglo-Scottish services.

Can't see it being needed on the Class 350 or 397 fleets

 

[Railperf]

Surely the unleashed power output of a DC Emu such as a 450, in terms of hardware fitted, is 2000 kW. The fact that Network Rail cannot allow that to happen is a separate issue?

You can only 'unleash' 2000' kW if the substations can deliver it. Try and draw 2000kW if only 1500kW is available and something either trips or goes bang. Hence the maximum power available on DC is artificially capped at around 1100 to 1200kW - based on what Network Rail can deliver at peak times with the maximum amount of trains in a single current section.

 

[Railperf]

Thanks - some interesting hp per ton comparisons. A Eurostar 373 (10.9) is almost the same as a deceased MerseyRail class 502 3 car (10.4) from 1939! or did I miss something? I would have thought that a High Speed Eurostar would have been a factor of 2 or 3 times a 70mph 1939 EMU.

Eurostar sure does have a greater power to weight ratio than 10.9. I think it is more than 25hp/ton
However - the amount of power available depends on what power system it is using. The driver selects a switch depending on whether he is on high-speed lines, domestic SNCF and BR 25kV AC, SNCF 1.5kV DC, BR 750v DC, Belgian 3kV DC. The maximum power available varies on each of these systems. Less power is needed on non-HS tracks where 160kmh / 100mph is the normal top speed.

 

[43096]

Eurostar sure does have a greater power to weight ratio than 10.9. I think it is more than 25hp/ton
However - the amount of power available depends on what power system it is using. The driver selects a switch depending on whether he is on high-speed lines, domestic SNCF and BR 25kV AC, SNCF 1.5kV DC, BR 750v DC, Belgian 3kV DC. The maximum power available varies on each of these systems. Less power is needed on non-HS tracks where 160kmh / 100mph is the normal top speed.

As a rough guide, Wiki gives a 373 as being 16,400hp (12.2MW) under 25kV for 752 tonnes, or 21.8hp/t.

North of London sets are/were 665 tonnes so 24.7hp/t.

 

[Railperf]

As a rough guide, Wiki gives a 373 as being 16,400hp (12.2MW) under 25kV for 752 tonnes, or 21.8hp/t.

North of London sets are/were 665 tonnes so 24.7hp/t.

Only when the power supply selector switch is LGV.

 

[Railperf]

Yes they could still easily attain 100mph just slower dragging a dead weight around. They would lose speed climbing Shap and Beattock.

To add to that - the shut down engine cannot be restarted until you come to a stand - not a problem when doing 100mph across the plain of York - but a right pain if you suffer a TSR or signal check - because you only then have 2 engines to get you back to line speed - nightmare if you have steep gradients to encounter.

 

[Railperf]

As a rough guide, Wiki gives a 373 as being 16,400hp (12.2MW) under 25kV for 752 tonnes, or 21.8hp/t.

North of London sets are/were 665 tonnes so 24.7hp/t.

Yes..and that compares with over 30hp/t for a TGV Duplex. Certainly the performance deficit is noticed on the steeper inclines on French LGVs as is the 300km/h speed limit compared to 320 km/h for the Duplex south of Avignon.

 

[swt_passenger]

You can only 'unleash' 2000' kW if the substations can deliver it. Try and draw 2000kW if only 1500kW is available and something either trips or goes bang. Hence the maximum power available on DC is artificially capped at around 1100 to 1200kW - based on what Network Rail can deliver at peak times with the maximum amount of trains in a single current section.

Which is exactly what I said in the first place. The problem is solely down to Network Rail.

 

[Railperf]

Which is exactly what I said in the first place. The problem is solely down to Network Rail.

There is no problem. In this case an off-the shelf design has been tailored for the needs of the customer - based on the power available.
Similarly the MTU engines in HST's can deliver far more power but are tuned to suit the application.

 

[43096]

Similarly the MTU engines in HST's can deliver far more power but are tuned to suit the application.

Same applies for the VP185.

 

[Railperf]

Same applies for the VP185.

While we are at it..i'm sure it was said the original Valentas were capable of 2,400hp at the flywheel but detuned for the HST. And they were temporarily detuned to avoid overheating in some hot summers too - especially when the exhaust manifolds were cracking frequently.

 

[Bevan Price]

As a rough guide, Wiki gives a 373 as being 16,400hp (12.2MW) under 25kV for 752 tonnes, or 21.8hp/t.

North of London sets are/were 665 tonnes so 24.7hp/t.

Thanks - now found similar data in Colin J Marsden's guide on DMU & EMU recognition.
And they are rated at 5000 Kw (7368 h.p.) on 1500 Volts DC. No figure for their rating on Southern 3rd rail system. Will amend file data later.

 

[43096]

While we are at it..i'm sure it was said the original Valentas were capable of 2,400hp at the flywheel but detuned for the HST. And they were temporarily detuned to avoid overheating in some hot summers too - especially when the exhaust manifolds were cracking frequently.

Engine manufacturers frequently quote different ratings for different uses, depending on the duty cycle. As an example the 16RK3CT engine used in Class 56 is quoted at 3520hp rating, but was set at 3250hp for Class 56.

 

[hexagon789]

Probably just the usual forum speculation then.

Quite probably! But not limited to just this forum

 

[Bevan Price]

Post Reinstated. Corrected version for "Recent emu" power/weight data file now re-loaded. There had been some mistakes in the earlier attempt to edit. Data now corrected for Class 373.

Once again, thanks for comments & corrections.

 

[Railperf]

Thanks - now found similar data in Colin J Marsden's guide on DMU & EMU recognition.
And they are rated at 5000 Kw (7368 h.p.) on 1500 Volts DC. No figure for their rating on Southern 3rd rail system. Will amend file data later.

4,600hp on 750v DC @ a paltry 6.11hp/t

 

[43096]

4,600hp on 750v DC @ a paltry 6.11hp/t

They are now technically 0hp on 750V DC as they are no longer third rail capable.

 

[Railperf]

They are now technically 0hp on 750V DC as they are no longer third rail capable.

Yes. the third rail shoe gear was removed if i remember correctly.