Preference to buy tickets from a ticket office

[AlterEgo]

In what way are not acting impartially if you proactively offer splits? Which TOCs benefit from offering several split tickets will depend upon where the splits fall and the nature of the tickets at those split points. As long as you're not doing the split with benefitting any particular TOC being in mind, only what is the best deal for the customer's needs, surely that is impartial retailing?

I’ve already explained this in the thread several times, but it isn’t the case that a member of staff or even the train company must have an “impartial frame of mind” or “good intent”.

 

[modernrail]

Which makes them unreliable and ineffective. Which in turn means people won't use them as they'll have bad experiences and not want to bother again.

Be better off replacing the window with a passenger help point button which goes through to a roaming member of staff who can better spend their time proactively doing things and helping passengers around the station.

Unlike when Diamond Geezer visited Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, whose ticket office didn't sell a single ticket for 4 consecutive months this year, and was mildly tempted to buy a ticket from the ticket office just to give the staff member whose head was staring down at the desk at a slightly defeated angle something to do.

At least if they're roaming they can be picking up litter, looking out for suicidal or despondent persons, being around passengers to offer advice if there's delays or cancellations etc.

I really am starting to come to the conclusion reading this thread that the days of the ticket office are numbered.

Is one option to create a new duty station manager role at the same grade?

In stations where there is already such a person, there is probably still a justification for a ticket office as it is a busier station. In a smaller station you could have this duty manager role and help point system (potentially including retaining the ability to sell tickets).

That way, the person in the ticket office in not been offered some sort of dogs body role. It is more something they can take pride in, maybe with latitude to work with the operator of the station on improvements etc, community feel of the station etc.

There are some stations where it feels this is already the role taken by the staff on an informal basis and there are little touches on the station that really make a difference to the feel of the place, which also makes them feel a lot more welcoming. It makes a big difference to my experience of using the railway for sure.

 

[styles]

I really am starting to come to the conclusion reading this thread that the days of the ticket office are numbered.

Is one option to create a new duty station manager role at the same grade?

In stations where there is already such a person, there is probably still a justification for a ticket office as it is a busier station. In a smaller station you could have this duty manager role and help point system (potentially including retaining the ability to sell tickets).

That way, the person in the ticket office in not been offered some sort of dogs body role. It is more something they can take pride in, maybe with latitude to work with the operator of the station on improvements etc, community feel of the station etc.

There are some stations where it feels this is already the role taken by the staff on an informal basis and there are little touches on the station that really make a difference to the feel of the place, which also makes them feel a lot more welcoming. It makes a big difference to my experience of using the railway for sure.

This is basically what I would propose yeah.

At larger interchange stations, ticket offices make sense. There's enough throughput to have dedicated staff members to selling tickets.

At smaller stations, retain the staff members, provide them with mobile devices to sell tickets (much like on-board ticket inspectors have), but make their role primarily mobile. Heck I would go a step further and train staff at smaller stations in basic DIY and maintenance, gardening, etc. One of my local stations, Shotton, the fences could really do with the fences being painted, and some litter picking in visible areas. Instead we employ a member of staff to sit behind a ticket office counter for 5 hours a day and I bet they sell very few tickets. A customer help point button which goes straight through to the staff member and they could be back at the counter within like 2 minutes from even the further away point of the station, but could also simply offer advice over the intercom if appropriate.

If we're going to have staff at stations selling 1 ticket an hour, they may as well be doing something else for remaining 58 minutes of the hour.

Caledonian Road & Barnsbury station had 25 ticket office ticket sales in the whole of the last reporting year. The ticket office is open at peak hours only, but that still amounts to 1 ticket sold per 26 hours worked. That is simply not a good use of time or money, especially when they have a second staff member at the gateline.

I don't think anyone is advocating for removing all ticket offices, but the idea of keeping them open when they provide an unreliable service at single-staffed stations is a bit off also.

 

[signed]

If you offer splits proactively you aren’t acting impartially towards other train companies.

What is the difference between a Y TOC operated ticket office proactively offering splits and Y TOC operated Trainline whitelabel proactively offering splits?

 

[styles]

What is the difference between a Y TOC operated ticket office proactively offering splits and Y TOC operated Trainline whitelabel proactively offering splits?

Answered here:

The rule applies to specific points of sale - ticket offices and TVMs (and guards?). This is because TOCs are mandated to provide such facilities as part of franchise agreements, and as station facilities operators to do so without prejudice to other train operators. Websites are not impartial points of sale.

 

[Haywain]

What is the difference between a Y TOC operated ticket office proactively offering splits and Y TOC operated Trainline whitelabel proactively offering splits?

One is required to be impartial and the other is not. It's been explained already.

 

[CyrusWuff]

In what way are not acting impartially if you proactively offer splits?

To give an actual example:

Walk up fares between London and Oxford are priced by GWR. If a member of staff at Marylebone sells a combination of a London to High Wycombe and a High Wycombe to Oxford ticket, all of the revenue will go to Chiltern, as opposed to whatever their ORCATS share would be for the through ticket.

Whilst it saves the customer money, it breaks the impartiality rule and could result in GWR making a claim against Chiltern for loss of revenue if it happened on a frequent basis. That all revenue goes to HM Treasury doesn't alter that.

 

[fandroid]

There are aot of sensible suggestions on here for stations with just one staff member to be set up so that the staff member can fulfill all reasonable station tasks as well as selling tickets. Simply helping the customer to negotiate the ticket machine would fulfill most of the ticket selling needs.

Whether there should also be a proper ticket office is a decision to be made with reference to whether local demand would justify it.

The main point ought to be - if the station is staffed at all, then passengers should be able to request assistance in ticket purchase from that staff member.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the difference between a Y TOC operated ticket office proactively offering splits and Y TOC operated Trainline whitelabel proactively offering splits?

One is legally an Impartial Point of Sale under the TSA and the other is not. But this has already been covered in the thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==

To give an actual example:

Walk up fares between London and Oxford are priced by GWR. If a member of staff at Marylebone sells a combination of a London to High Wycombe and a High Wycombe to Oxford ticket, all of the revenue will go to Chiltern, as opposed to whatever their ORCATS share would be for the through ticket.

Whilst it saves the customer money, it breaks the impartiality rule and could result in GWR making a claim against Chiltern for loss of revenue if it happened on a frequent basis. That all revenue goes to HM Treasury doesn't alter that.

This is one of the better examples yes. And to repeat myself again for the benefit of the thread, impartial retailing doesn’t mean “being impartial to the customer” or “going the extra mile to circumvent the fare structure for the customer benefit” - it means TOCs retailing the correct Fare (capitalised, single) for the customer’s journey.

The impartiality requirement is for TOCs to be impartial to one another in this way at their Impartial Points of Sale (generally, ticket offices, onboard staff selling tickets).

 

[redreni]

I don't think the suggestions for redefinition of the ticket office clerk role at smaller, single-person staffed stations are bad. I'm sure the people who work in these roles would object to the idea of 'introducing' duties other than selling tickets to the role, given they already perform a great many other duties. Nothing wrong with modernising the job titles and job descriptions to formalise and maybe expand the other duties in recognition of the reduced demand for ticket sales, though, I agree.

A call button where passengers can contact staff without having to go and find them would be a good idea, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a separate dedicated help point. A button on the passenger-facing side of the ticket office counter would be cheaper to install and would do the same job. At two-platform stations, one call button in the ticket office and a separate passenger help point on the platform on the opposite side might be a winning formula, particularly for those for whom crossing over is difficult.

I don't really see what the advantage is of removing the ticket office, though? It would only really save significant money if you downgraded and casualised the role and no longer trained people in railway ticketing, which what was proposed (and in some places implemented) a couple of years ago and is a recipe for bad advice.

Also, many of these stations only have one TVM and, being in or around Greater London, you do still get a lot of people making longer journeys and buying online using TOD because their ticket has cross-London validity. The stations only have one TVM. Therefore if you remove the ticket office, you no longer have any redundancy for TOD collection if the TVM is on the blink, and the passenger is screwed. So it may be that one does want to close those ticket offices, but it should only happen when the ridiculous nonsense of making people use TOD and CCSTs for a significant proportion of tickets sold in the Greater London area finally comes to an end.

 

[xotGD]

the ridiculous nonsense of making people use TOD and CCSTs

What would be more ridiculous would be taking away that option for the rest of us.

It should not be obligatory to own either a smart phone or a printer in order to make a rail journey.

 

[Trainbike46]

Translink NI has come up with a nice solution, I think.

If you buy a ticket online, you receive an eTicket in your email, and you can travel with that on your phone. If, for whatever reason, you want to collect your ticket you can the code in the email to collect the ticket from a ticket machine. One ticket format, that is both an eTicket and ToD, depending on the passenger's preference.

 

[Sonic1234]

you do still get a lot of people making longer journeys and buying online using TOD because their ticket has cross-London validity.

I always worry people don't do this, and the CCST issue will be solved by removing cross London fares "because no one uses them." There are some great value cross-London fares, compared to a London Terminals + 2x mixed-mode Oyster fares (and some cheaper than the Terminals fare). But if I take a trip out of London on an Intercity service, I'm often the only one with a piece of orange paper. How did everyone else get there? It's not like normal people live near London Terminals.

You get a nice look on some gateline assistant's faces when you turn up in suburbia with your piece of orange paper "wow! someone from the past!"

 

[Haywain]

How did everyone else get there? It's not like normal people live near London Terminals.

People living in Greater London are likely to be using Oyster or contactless, or using prepaid Travelcards. Those from further out may well be using split tickets of one sort or another. And some of those travelling will be on the return leg of a trip to London.

 

[Trainbike46]

I always worry people don't do this, and the CCST issue will be solved by removing cross London fares "because no one uses them." There are some great value cross-London fares, compared to a London Terminals + 2x mixed-mode Oyster fares (and some cheaper than the Terminals fare). But if I take a trip out of London on an Intercity service, I'm often the only one with a piece of orange paper. How did everyone else get there? It's not like normal people live near London Terminals.

You get a nice look on some gateline assistant's faces when you turn up in suburbia with your piece of orange paper "wow! someone from the past!"

It's not always cheaper to buy a through ticket in London. I just checked, and my most common south london suburbia to Northern England ticket is cheaper if split at Euston into a regular railway ticket north of there and an Oyster fare south of there. Plus, if splitting it contributes to daily and weekly capping, if relevant.

I suspect it depends a lot on the origin and destination whether a through ticket or a "split" at the london Terminal, with Oyster used in London, is cheaper.

 

[redreni]

People living in Greater London are likely to be using Oyster or contactless, or using prepaid Travelcards. Those from further out may well be using split tickets of one sort or another. And some of those travelling will be on the return leg of a trip to London.

That's possibly true as a generalisation if you're thinking of intercity travel. It's just not the case when one considers regional trips within the South East but going outside the Contactless area (think Orpington to Cambridge). People making that sort of journey probably wouldn't use Contactless to Kings Cross then buy a ticket; anyone who thinks that's what you have to do would check the fare, conclude it's far too expensive and choose to drive. The point-to-point cross-London fare is *much* better value.

Thr numbers buying cross-London tickets may not be as high as it would be if people generally knew more about fares, but I don't think it's low enough that you can just dismiss the fact TOD is still needed by a non-trivial number of people at small stations in and around London (not many people per station, maybe, but there are a lot of stations) and will be until e-ticket acceptance on the tube is sorted out. There's a recent thread in Disputes involving a failed TOD collection at Slade Green (neither the TVM nor the TIS in the ticket office was working). If you make the system even less resilient by relying solely on a single TVM at the departure station, this problem will get worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==

It's not always cheaper to buy a through ticket in London. I just checked, and my most common south london suburbia to Northern England ticket is cheaper if split at Euston into a regular railway ticket north of there and an Oyster fare south of there. Plus, if splitting it contributes to daily and weekly capping, if relevant.

I suspect it depends a lot on the origin and destination whether a through ticket or a "split" at the london Terminal, with Oyster used in London, is cheaper.

That's correct, and they've stopped pricing a lot of through advances on longer journeys. It depends on the destination, as you say. Going to the outer reaches of the former Network South East area via London, through fares are often very significantly cheaper, especially for Network Railcard holders.

 

[yorkie]

It's not always cheaper to buy a through ticket in London. I just checked, and my most common south london suburbia to Northern England ticket is cheaper if split at Euston into a regular railway ticket north of there and an Oyster fare south of there. Plus, if splitting it contributes to daily and weekly capping, if relevant.

I suspect it depends a lot on the origin and destination whether a through ticket or a "split" at the london Terminal, with Oyster used in London, is cheaper.

Indeed, it depends; the forum's ticketing site has an advanced option to enable cross-London transfers to be excluded, i.e. allowing the customer to obtain e-tickets and use contactless to get between terminals (where relevant).

However, if using that option, the through cross-London fare would still be shown, if it is cheaper than splitting.

 

[Trainbike46]

Indeed, it depends; the forum's ticketing site has an advanced option to enable cross-London transfers to be excluded, i.e. allowing the customer to obtain e-tickets and use contactless to get between terminals (where relevant).

However, if using that option, the through cross-London fare would still be shown, if it is cheaper than splitting.

I've made use of that option, it's really good!

 

[davews]

Also remember that many stations in London commuter land and beyond do not offer period returns into London, they are all day returns with singles nearly the same price as returns. For longer journeys across London it is a lot cheaper to get a through return to your destination including cross London rather than two singles to London and contactless across. Especially if you have a railcard.

 

[Haywain]

For longer journeys across London it is a lot cheaper to get a through return to your destination including cross London rather than two singles to London and contactless across. Especially if you have a railcard.

But that's not always true and, in any case, returns are not always available.

 

[xotGD]

Many people* making business trips to London are not aware that they can get a ticket to 'London Underground Zone 1' so end up using contactless for their onward tube journey. Then deciding it is too much faff to claim back on expenses and ending up out of pocket.

This does, however, mean they have the option of using their phone as a ticket for their journey to and from London.

*Based on my experience with colleagues.

 

[Wakeful]

Translink NI has come up with a nice solution, I think.

If you buy a ticket online, you receive an eTicket in your email, and you can travel with that on your phone. If, for whatever reason, you want to collect your ticket you can the code in the email to collect the ticket from a ticket machine. One ticket format, that is both an eTicket and ToD, depending on the passenger's preference.

The eTicket/barcode is not a valid ticket for travel, but it used to print a paper ticket (from conductors/barrier staff and now TVMs) which is a valid ticket for travel.

For internal NIR journeys, it can be cheaper to purchase the same ticket from a booking office or member of staff instead of from the Translink website as the off-peak discount does not apply - we would actually advise against buying tickets online to passengers!

For cross-border Enterprise journeys and through tickets onto Irish Rail, we would advise passengers to use split ticketing and buy well in advance online.

Hope this clarifies things!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Translink NI has come up with a nice solution, I think.

If you buy a ticket online, you receive an eTicket in your email, and you can travel with that on your phone. If, for whatever reason, you want to collect your ticket you can the code in the email to collect the ticket from a ticket machine. One ticket format, that is both an eTicket and ToD, depending on the passenger's preference.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/making-e-tickets-printable-at-tvms-etc.287610/

 

[Trainbike46]

The eTicket/barcode is not a valid ticket for travel, but it used to print a paper ticket (from conductors/barrier staff and now TVMs) which is a valid ticket for travel.

That seems to make everything more complicated, but I guess that is the Northern Irish way

From a passenger perspective though, you can travel with the eTicket without needing to do anything in advance of boarding the train, even if the actual "ticket" isn't printed until a guard scans your eTicket.

For internal NIR journeys, it can be cheaper to purchase the same ticket from a booking office or member of staff instead of from the Translink website as the off-peak discount does not apply - we would actually advise against buying tickets online to passengers!

For cross-border Enterprise journeys and through tickets onto Irish Rail, we would advise passengers to use split ticketing and buy well in advance online.

I've only ever bought Enterprise tickets online. Everything else I get from the ticket office or onboard staff in NI, depending on the station.

Hope this clarifies things!

Not particularly, but I think confusion is a pretty normal reaction to Translink ticketing!

 

[signed]

On Trenitalia, that's even simpler, your ticket is the PNR 6 or 8 (can't remember) alphanumeric code, you don't need the barcode or anything else

 

[pokemonsuper9]

On Trenitalia, that's even simpler, your ticket is the PNR 6 or 8 (can't remember) alphanumeric code, you don't need the barcode or anything else

I assume the same could apply in areas with an internet connection with the ticket numbers below our eticket codes, it's just that scanning it is so much easier than typing, and allows for storage of more data so less internet connectivity is required.

 

[unsatisfied]

The only drawback is if there's a queue.

Last time I went to a ticket office to buy a ticket I was given a flimsy 35cm long receipt-style paper folded in 5 containing my payment receipt, outward barcode, and return barcode. I now purposefully avoid buying tickets from ticket offices, opting for the more durable traditional tickets from AVMs that don't look like what you'd get after doing your Christmas shopping.

 

[Wakeful]

That seems to make everything more complicated, but I guess that is the Northern Irish way

Indeed!

From a passenger perspective though, you can travel with the eTicket without needing to do anything in advance of boarding the train, even if the actual "ticket" isn't printed until a guard scans your eTicket.

To be fair, this is one of the advantages of NIR eTickets as there are no validity restrictions regarding when they are valid compared to mLink mobile app tickets which usually are activated at the time of purchase, whereas the tickets purchased online can be redeemed and issued at any time that suits the passenger - but this can come at a cost of up to £6 between the most expensive peak and off-peak returns e.g. Derry~Londonderry to Belfast Grand Central, and £14 difference between the maximum £24 day return and a £10 Sunday Day Tracker!

Generally, I'd recommend mLink to skip the queue in a rush, but it can be worth it to consult a member of staff!

Not particularly, but I think confusion is a pretty normal reaction to Translink ticketing!

Unfortunately so!

 

[TUC]

I’ve already explained this in the thread several times, but it isn’t the case that a member of staff or even the train company must have an “impartial frame of mind” or “good intent”.

That's not difficult is it? It only requires the staff member to disregard which TOC is running a service, except where the customer has stated specific requirements which impact upon this.

 

[yorkie]

That's not difficult is it? It only requires the staff member to disregard which TOC is running a service, except where the customer has stated specific requirements which impact upon this.

It's a lot more than that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2025 ==

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