Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

[craigybagel]

The tourist season tends to be May - September and football and Rugby are not so much in this period are they ? I am not perticularly interested in the various ball games in Wales, but pre pandemic there was a tendency to shift all the North Wales 150s down south and lay on bustitution. With a load of 153s for cover, the situation might be eased.

Presumably there are still staff and capacity at Landore seeing as most of the 142s and 143s passed through there in the last year or two.

I'm not sure about "all the North Wales 150s" - it was usually just the unit for the Blaneau branch, and even then only when desperate. The one off Champions League final in 2017 was the only time there was a mass borrowing of units from the North to cover sports events in the South.

In terms of big events in Cardiff, there are normally 3 big Autumn international rugby matches around November, and depending on the year either 2 or 3 6 Nations matches in Spring. There also tend to be a few sell out crowd concerts in the stadium during the year as well.

Regardless of what happens with the 153s, when all of the 197s and MKIVs are on stream there's already going to be a much larger fleet on hand to help cope with big events than there was before.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'm not sure about "all the North Wales 150s" - it was usually just the unit for the Blaneau branch, and even then only when desperate. The one off Champions League final in 2017 was the only time there was a mass borrowing of units from the North to cover sports events in the South.

In terms of big events in Cardiff, there are normally 3 big Autumn international rugby matches around November, and depending on the year either 2 or 3 6 Nations matches in Spring. There also tend to be a few sell out crowd concerts in the stadium during the year as well.

Regardless of what happens with the 153s, when all of the 197s and MKIVs are on stream there's already going to be a much larger fleet on hand to help cope with big events than there was before.

Perhaps the 2017 event distorted my memory "Craigybagel" so I apologise for exaggeration. I do remember an exodus of 150/2s to run shuttles between Newport - Cardiff and Cardiff - Swansea. A bit naughty in my view but heyho, and that is why I wondered whether TfW might be procuring the latter day equivalent of "excursion stock".

 

[56xx]

First post here.

Travelled Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central & return today on 170 204 & 170 208.

Very impressed with the units. Quite crowded in both directions. Smooth good riding and adapt from fast running on SWM to literally cruising up the valley with ease.

Why the rush to get rid of them?

 

[Wyrleybart]

First post here.

Travelled Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central & return today on 170 204 & 170 208.

Very impressed with the units. Quite crowded in both directions. Smooth good riding and adapt from fast running on SWM to literally cruising up the valley with ease.

Why the rush to get rid of them?

Maybe it isn't so much a rush for TfW to get rid of them as much as DfT plugging the 170 gap at EMR caused by the impractability of plugging the gap in Sussex which would have been left by moving the 171s.

Another solution would have been to build a follow on batch of 195-197 for Northern and transfer the ex Scottish Northern 170s to EMR. That would have had a political "levelling up the North" slogan too. I guess that shipping the ex GA 170s to EMR ultimately reduces the number of fleet operators by one.

 

[Caaardiff]

First post here.

Travelled Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central & return today on 170 204 & 170 208.

Very impressed with the units. Quite crowded in both directions. Smooth good riding and adapt from fast running on SWM to literally cruising up the valley with ease.

Why the rush to get rid of them?

They are being replaced by Flirts on the routes they are currently on, and the cost of changes needed for them to be route cleared in West Wales and HOWL where they were intended to go turned out to be more expensive than originally thought.

I get the impression when they were taken on for the current routes, that the exact requirements to make them work elsewhere were unknown or not properly researched.

 

[Envoy]

First post here.

Travelled Ebbw Vale - Cardiff Central & return today on 170 204 & 170 208.

Very impressed with the units. Quite crowded in both directions. Smooth good riding and adapt from fast running on SWM to literally cruising up the valley with ease.

Why the rush to get rid of them?

I see that you live in Merthyr. The Ebbw Vale & Rhymney lines will have a very different type of train (Stadler Flirts) v the central valleys (everything that goes through Radyr).
The Merthyr / Treherbert / Aberdare lines will have Stadler City Link Tram-trains Class 398. The ‘South Wales Metro’ forum under Infrastructure covers this topic.

You can see the different types of train that TfW have ordered here:> https://railcolornews.com/2019/12/04/uk-transport-for-wales-meet-the-fleet/

Operated by KeolisAmey, the new-build train fleet (that excludes existing rolling stock transferred from other operators and the Vivarail Class 230 DEMUs built by transforming former London Underground D-Stock trains) will be formed of the following.

 

[56xx]

Thanks to you guys above for the explanations and link.

 

[anthony263]

Stadler diesels (can't remember the class number, sorry!)

Which can be converted to bi mode if required

 

[Wyrleybart]

Thanks to "Envoy" from me too for the link. Has anything changed regarding the planned deployment of the 231 and 756 classes ? AIUI the 231s are diesel only despite running under the OLE from Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction whereas the 756s are trimode but won't be under OLE east of Cardiff. Is the Rhymney line going to be electrified ?

TIA

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks to "Envoy" from me too for the link. Has anything changed regarding the planned deployment of the 231 and 756 classes ? AIUI the 231s are diesel only despite running under the OLE from Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction whereas the 756s are trimode but won't be under OLE east of Cardiff. Is the Rhymney line going to be electrified ?

TIA

If anything has changed its not been made public knowledge yet. I'd be surprised if anything does change from those plans though.

Rhymney and Coryton are getting electrified, though there will be intermittent unwired sections which is why the units are tri mode - so they'll be on electric or battery on the Rhymney and Coryton lines, and on diesel South/West of there.

 

[Wyrleybart]

If anything has changed its not been made public knowledge yet. I'd be surprised if anything does change from those plans though.

Rhymney and Coryton are getting electrified, though there will be intermittent unwired sections which is why the units are tri mode - so they'll be on electric or battery on the Rhymney and Coryton lines, and on diesel South/West of there.

Thanks Craigy. That makes a lot of sense then assuming it is 25kV - much more power than diesel. I assume the 25kV > battery > 25kV interfaces will work well on the discontinuous electrification, and maybe the regen coming back downhill goes into the batteries rather than in the wires. Sounds like a good plan albeit a decade or two late. Do we remember the rumours of displaced 315s going to the valleys. The Welsh did deserve better than that and glad to see positive plans.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Do we remember the rumours of displaced 315s going to the valleys. The Welsh did deserve better than that and glad to see positive plans.

Not sure which would really have been better overall - there were pros and cons to that rumour compared to the current plan. The 315s would presumably have come with FULL electrification (including Vale Of Glamorgan?) wheras with the Stadler units (which in some/many respects will probably be a higher quality product than the 315s) we're only getting intermittant electrification north of Cardiff and nothing on the Vale Of Glamorgan. The 315s would also have been a better match for platform lengths on some routes - Aberdare and Merthyr if I recall correctly - than the Stadlers. Apart from the lack of toilets on services north of Taff's Well I do think the plans for the ValleyLines are pretty good and a very positive development compared to the status-quo of 150s and Pacers though. The 756s (and, assuming converting them to bi-mode is as simple as installing a pantograph and maybe a transformer, the 231s) are certainly to be welcomed as a big step forward, unlike the 197s.

 

[Caaardiff]

Those together with 320, 323 and 367 are Porterbrook ones so they would still be leasing them. The ones they have bought are all Angel ones. Other Porterbrook but non PRM ones are 909, 910. 913.914, 922, 935. However, 906 and 926 are lite PRMd and 909 and 921 are currently receiving lite PRM Mods at Landore.

Have TfW purchased all of the Angel ones? There's currently no plan to PRM lite mod 153918, 968, 972 & 982. The ones planned for PRM lite are all Porterbrook.

 

[PHILIPE]

153910 on it's way from Canton to Landore today for PRM (Lite) and 153921 due to return

 

[Scottish-Exile]

153910 on it's way from Canton to Landore today for PRM (Lite) and 153921 due to return

153 921 returned to Canton as 5Z21. The 3rd unit to undergo PRM Lite refrurb.

 

[berneyarms]

Lovely photo!!

So that's 153 906, 153 921 and 153 926 which have completed their PRM Lite refurb now, and 153 909 and 153 910 in Landore.

Could someone just outline what the PRM Lite refurbishment actually involves - I can't see an explanation anywhere.

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Also, does anyone know which Class 158 (if any) is currently in Crewe being refurbished? My records tell me that nine remain to be completed.

 

[PHILIPE]

Lovely photo!!

So that's 153 906, 153 921 and 153 926 which have completed their PRM Lite refurb now, and 153 909 and 153 910 in Landore.

Could someone just outline what the PRM Lite refurbishment actually involves - I can't see an explanation anywhere.

I may not be completely correct but I think that it is everything that is done at a full PRM except for the toilets which are being permanently locked out of use. The retention tanks will be retained (as documented in the Class 153 updates thread) to keep a supply of water to top up the coolant in the event of a loss out on the road.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I may not be completely correct but I think that it is everything that is done at a full PRM except for the toilets which are being permanently locked out of use. The retention tanks will be retained (as documented in the Class 153 updates thread) to keep a supply of water to top up the coolant in the event of a loss out on the road.

I thought the only 153s with retention tanks were the ScotRail bicycle ones and TfW's full-PRM units. I understood that this was the reason for the toilets being locked out of use on the PRM-lite TfW 153s, rather than being available for use but not wheelchair accessible (which I understand is the case with the ScotRail 153s).

 

[Failed Unit]

I may not be completely correct but I think that it is everything that is done at a full PRM except for the toilets which are being permanently locked out of use. The retention tanks will be retained (as documented in the Class 153 updates thread) to keep a supply of water to top up the coolant in the event of a loss out on the road.

Are they not putting a toilet at the other end? I am sure a I saw a photo somewhere but maybe confusing it with a 156 (as it is was a 156 type toilet in the photo). So in effect the 153 will have 2 toilets, the "old" one getting locked up. However that photo clearly doesn't show it (unless it is on the other side) so beginning to think it was a 156 I saw.

 

[craigybagel]

I think there's some crossed wires and cross terminology going on here

The PRM lite 153s are getting everything the full PRM units are getting (Train FX PIS System, Door opening alarms, seat recovering, etc) with the exception of the changes to the toilet.

On the full PRM sets, the original toilet at the small cab end is removed completely with fold down seats added in it's place. The bulkheads around it remain however as they contain various electric circuit boards and other such gubbins that can't be easily removed. A new, large PRM compliant toilet with retention tanks is fitted instead at the large cab end.


On the PRM lite units the original toilet is retained, but permanently locked out of use. The water tank for this (which I believe is in the roof) is being kept filled to use as an emergency coolant supply as is standard on 153s. There is no replacement toilet fitted on this unit, so with a PRM lite and full PRM unit coupled together you get one toilet for the two cars. I hope this clears everything up

 

[berneyarms]

I think there's some crossed wires and cross terminology going on here

The PRM lite 153s are getting everything the full PRM units are getting (Train FX PIS System, Door opening alarms, seat recovering, etc) with the exception of the changes to the toilet.

On the full PRM sets, the original toilet at the small cab end is removed completely with fold down seats added in it's place. The bulkheads around it remain however as they contain various electric circuit boards and other such gubbins that can't be easily removed. A new, large PRM compliant toilet with retention tanks is fitted instead at the large cab end.


On the PRM lite units the original toilet is retained, but permanently locked out of use. The water tank for this (which I believe is in the roof) is being kept filled to use as an emergency coolant supply as is standard on 153s. There is no replacement toilet fitted on this unit, so with a PRM lite and full PRM unit coupled together you get one toilet for the two cars. I hope this clears everything up

Thanks @craigybagel - I knew I could rely on you!

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks @craigybagel - I knew I could rely on you!

I wouldn't be too confident, I was as confused as anything the first time I worked one

 

[squizzler]

As a Llandrindod escapee it is disappointing to hear that the dog-boxes will probably remain, although by the sounds of things there will be sufficient dedicated to the line for a decent service, and the refurb will make them a different animal (in fact, like on the ark, an animal that goes two by two).

I wonder, in the absence of the promised 170s, would the 230 have been a better bet? The windows to view what is meant to be a scenic line was never good on the 153.

 

[wobman]

As a Llandrindod escapee it is disappointing to hear that the dog-boxes will probably remain, although by the sounds of things there will be sufficient dedicated to the line for a decent service, and the refurb will make them a different animal (in fact, like on the ark, an animal that goes two by two).

I wonder, in the absence of the promised 170s, would the 230 have been a better bet? The windows to view what is meant to be a scenic line was never good on the 153.

A 230 on the route would not be a better bet, look at the 230 thread. 153's work well on the route and that's not factoring in traction training for Shrewsbury depot/ unit maintenance etc etc

 

[craigybagel]

As a Llandrindod escapee it is disappointing to hear that the dog-boxes will probably remain, although by the sounds of things there will be sufficient dedicated to the line for a decent service, and the refurb will make them a different animal (in fact, like on the ark, an animal that goes two by two).

I wonder, in the absence of the promised 170s, would the 230 have been a better bet? The windows to view what is meant to be a scenic line was never good on the 153.

Before the details of the franchise bid were announced I speculate here that the 230s could be a good bet for the Heart of Wales. If they'd already entered service by now and proven themselves reliable then perhaps a follow up order for another 4 would have been a better option than keeping the 153s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Before the details of the franchise bid were announced I speculate here that the 230s could be a good bet for the Heart of Wales. If they'd already entered service by now and proven themselves reliable then perhaps a follow up order for another 4 would have been a better option than keeping the 153s.

If you think a 230 is a good idea for a four hour journey then I gather you haven’t been on one yet, especially not in summer.

 

[sd0733]

158840 is now back at Machynlleth with 158826 swapped out of its diagram and heading to Crewe for refresh later tonight 1

 

[JakeMurphy]

Where are we at with the 150’s currently?

 

[berneyarms]

Where are we at with the 150’s currently?

As far as I can tell:

Refurbished:
150 236, 150 240, 150 241, 150 251, 150 253, 150 254, 150 257 and 150 278

In process of being refurbished:
150 256

To be refurbished:
150 208, 150 213, 150 217, 150 227, 150 229, 150 230, 150 231, 150 235, 150 237, 150 242, 150 245, 150 250, 150 252, 150 255, 150 258, 150 259, 150 260, 150 262, 150 264, 150 267, 150 279, 150 280, 150 281, 150 282, 150 283, 150 284, 150 285


For the other classes:

Class 158 - All refurbished except for: 158 823, 158 825, 158 826 (Being refurbished as per above), 158 827, 158 828, 158 832, 158 836 and 158 837

Class 175 - All refurbished except for: 175 106, 175 107, 175 110, 175 111 (Being refurbished currently), 175 112 and 175 114

 

[sd0733]

As far as I can tell:

Refurbished:
150 236, 150 240, 150 241, 150 251, 150 253, 150 254, 150 257 and 150 278

In process of being refurbished:
150 256

To be refurbished:
150 208, 150 213, 150 217, 150 227, 150 229, 150 230, 150 231, 150 235, 150 237, 150 242, 150 245, 150 250, 150 252, 150 255, 150 258, 150 259, 150 260, 150 262, 150 264, 150 267, 150 279, 150 280, 150 281, 150 282, 150 283, 150 284, 150 285


For the other classes:

Class 158 - All refurbished except for: 158 823, 158 825, 158 826 (Being refurbished as per above), 158 827, 158 828, 158 832, 158 836 and 158 837

Class 175 - All refurbished except for: 175 106, 175 107, 175 110, 175 111 (Being refurbished currently), 175 112 and 175 114

That all looks pretty accurate.

Also theres the 153s which Are: (Think this is right)
Full refurb+PRM: 153303/312/320/323/325/327/329/333/353/361/362/367/369
PRM lite refurb: 153906/921/926
In Landore for Lite work: 153909/910
In Service non PRM, not refurbished: 153913/914/918/922/935/968/972/982