Proposed new GatEx livery on proposed new Class 387s

[physics34]

The actual full in service date for these trains is supposed to be the start of 2016 that doesn't give very long by anybody's standard.

youd think it would be a smooth transition and continuation from the 387/1 thameslink order and delivery as the bodyshells, mechanics and electrically stuff will be the same ...(except for being just DC, i presume)... with only the cosmetic stuff and furnishings to be altered......



can't see what the delay is..... bet it is the Treasury!!!

 

[swt_passenger]

One wonders when the order for these trains is actually going to be announced...

A poster in wnxx reckons that Bombardier confirmed it to staff today...

 

[GatwickDepress]

Ah, but you're forgetting that for a lot of the time, there are only about 3 passengers on any given 442 coach - perhaps even the whole train.

I did once use a daytime GatEx and there was ten people in the carriage. I was genuinely shocked!

Apparently 6 are to be retained for the Eastbourne - London Bridge services, until 2018. Maybe even the London Bridge - Brighton (V/V) services too.

What'll happen to the other units? Kept in storage or cannibalised for parts?

Yeah I think an plane should be on it somewhere.. for the passengers you immediately associate it with an Airport.

Thought a bigger plane over the windows looked a bit better..

That's actually very nice. Making it immediately identifiable as an airport service would be a rather nice step towards clarity.

 

[talldave]

Ah, but you're forgetting that for a lot of the time, there are only about 3 passengers on any given 442 coach - perhaps even the whole train.

Not when they use them for Eastbourne services! I overhead a member of staff on the platform at East Croydon say into his radio "this is going to take a long time" when a packed Eastbourne bound 442 arrived. Sure enough it takes forever for people to single file off - I guess not made any easier by the stupid internal sliding door chomping away at every passing passenger too.

In the event of a fire you'd be toast in a 442. Not that they ever catch fire do they ?

 

[physics34]

What'll happen to the other units? Kept in storage or cannibalised for parts?

No decision made, although scrapping is very possible, but surely conversion to loco hauled or for use with HST power cars (as have been mooted elsewhere, and they are newer than the HST mk 3s) is possible.

I see no further use on 750v DC unfortunately

 

[hassaanhc]

The actual full in service date for these trains is supposed to be the start of 2016 that doesn't give very long by anybody's standard.

I stand corrected, that isn't long at all, well compared to the 2017-2018 date for the new South West Trains order!

 

[ScotGG]

Blimey yet more trains for a London area TOC whilst southeastern have service cuts coming soon and badly needs 12 car trains with SDO.

Add on more stock to the order and get some onto SE.

 

[47802]

As for the livery well it makes a change from Southern Green, while the current livery just looks like modified stage coach livery, in fact did the 442's actually get a full repaint?

 

[physics34]

Blimey yet more trains for a London area TOC whilst southeastern have service cuts coming soon and badly needs 12 car trains with SDO.

Add on more stock to the order and get some onto SE.

Arent SE due to get some 377/1s?

 

[asylumxl]

I wanted to see what the livery would like if not taken/edited by a potato. I didn't change the doors nor is it perfect, but it is slightly less potato.

Original image taken from here.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm not at all bothered by the new livery, myself. It'd be nice to see at least one railway in the London area go red again after LUL stopped doing it.

On the other hand though: New 387s? What's wrong with the 442s, and what will become of them? (Back to SWT, I'd hope!)

The door pattern (end doors with vestibules) is no good for an airport shuttle, "commuter" doors like the 387s are far better as it allows quick boarding and alighting and gives a nice area for some bulky luggage

 

[Class377/5]

The actual full in service date for these trains is supposed to be the start of 2016 that doesn't give very long by anybody's standard.

Actually the full fleet of 27 units is supposed to be in service in time for the Dec 2015 timetable to support the GatEx 2tph extensions to Brighton. The wording used was introduced by 2016, ie before.

The fleet is supposed to be a follow on order from the 387/1 currently being built for Thameslink (five of which have been delivered for commissioning) with the first arriving in July (which implies a January start date). Currently the production line is working to one train a week so there is still time for all to be delivered in time.

I hope they have better seating than the ones in the 387/1 as they just have those awful 377/6 seats.

 

[ScotGG]

Arent SE due to get some 377/1s?

In over 3 years! Needed a bit sooner than that with all the London bridge upheaval.

 

[Class377/5]

In over 3 years! Needed a bit sooner than that with all the London bridge upheaval.

But the 377s are released by the arrival of the 700s so no chance in getting them earlier. Not that SE has used the fact its fleets been boosted with 319s and 377/5s on services that used to be Networker or 375 run really.

 

[fgwrich]

As for the livery well it makes a change from Southern Green, while the current livery just looks like modified stage coach livery, in fact did the 442's actually get a full repaint?

Most of the 442s are in a modified SWT livery! Certainly Wolverton Works repainted the half of the sides, just altering the roofs to remove the SWT orange, adding the red Gat Ex Stripe and Grey Band - The Blue around the windows is still the former SWT 'Express Blue' too!

 

[47802]

Actually the full fleet of 27 units is supposed to be in service in time for the Dec 2015 timetable to support the GatEx 2tph extensions to Brighton. The wording used was introduced by 2016, ie before.

The fleet is supposed to be a follow on order from the 387/1 currently being built for Thameslink (five of which have been delivered for commissioning) with the first arriving in July (which implies a January start date). Currently the production line is working to one train a week so there is still time for all to be delivered in time.

I hope they have better seating than the ones in the 387/1 as they just have those awful 377/6 seats.

I'm not sure I would put money on better standard class seating. maybe better first class, but whether Dft has ordered them in time for the original delivery schedule remains to be seen, Bombardier will need to place new orders with suppliers along with talking to the SPT about spare Orange paint , and presumably there will be some changes to the spec etc, even if they can build 1 train a week that's very tight to have them all in service by Dec 2015. Clearly this has been sat awaiting approval since the franchise was awarded in May, so I wouldn't be surprised to see delivery dates extended by at least 3 months and you can not really blame that on Bombardier.

 

[talldave]

I hope they have better seating than the ones in the 387/1 as they just have those awful 377/6 seats.

I travel regularly from Gatwick to Victoria, but I'm not familiar with this "seat" terminology? Are they the things that people who got on at Brighton get to use?

 

[Fincra5]

I travel regularly from Gatwick to Victoria, but I'm not familiar with this "seat" terminology? Are they the things that people who got on at Brighton get to use?

Yes, yes they are... Maybe with the new trains you may get the chance to experience the rare thing, called as "Seat".. I wouldn't hold your breathe though.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not sure I would put money on better standard class seating. maybe better first class, but whether Dft has ordered them in time for the original delivery schedule remains to be seen, Bombardier will need to place new orders with suppliers along with talking to the SPT about spare Orange paint , and presumably there will be some changes to the spec etc, even if they can build 1 train a week that's very tight to have them all in service by Dec 2015. Clearly this has been sat awaiting approval since the franchise was awarded in May, so I wouldn't be surprised to see delivery dates extended by at least 3 months and you can not really blame that on Bombardier.

Id be shocked if, when the ITT states enhance the GatEx brand, but keeps the 377/6 seating. They've stated that the units will be similar to a train currently in operation. A DC 379 would seem to be the aim as they are the most comfortable Electrostars I've ridden.

For once Bombardier can't be blamed too much if they aren't in service by Dec 2015, although as a follow on order the 27 GatEx units have around a year to be built with the 29x 387/1 for Thameslink and extra commissioning work having around 14 month. As Bombardier already has the order contract completed its not really a push to expect the production line to continue as now. The first 12x 387/1 are built and have run under their own power. 115/116 are under construction meaning the Thameslink build has around 14 weeks left which means finishing early February (extra time for xmas/NYE) giving around 40 weeks to build 27 trains and commission them. Its very achievable.

That's without the fact Bombardier has been waiting for the order since May so has had plenty of time to arrange itself. TfL requesting the S stock build is slowed down to take six months longer means there some slack in Derby (but not really to help the Electrostar production line).

I travel regularly from Gatwick to Victoria, but I'm not familiar with this "seat" terminology? Are they the things that people who got on at Brighton get to use?

Yes it is. Unless its a 377/6 then you on some sort of plastic bench.

 

[47802]

Id be shocked if, when the ITT states enhance the GatEx brand, but keeps the 377/6 seating. They've stated that the units will be similar to a train currently in operation. A DC 379 would seem to be the aim as they are the most comfortable Electrostars I've ridden.

For once Bombardier can't be blamed too much if they aren't in service by Dec 2015, although as a follow on order the 27 GatEx units have around a year to be built with the 29x 387/1 for Thameslink and extra commissioning work having around 14 month. As Bombardier already has the order contract completed its not really a push to expect the production line to continue as now. The first 12x 387/1 are built and have run under their own power. 115/116 are under construction meaning the Thameslink build has around 14 weeks left which means finishing early February (extra time for xmas/NYE) giving around 40 weeks to build 27 trains and commission them. Its very achievable.

That's without the fact Bombardier has been waiting for the order since May so has had plenty of time to arrange itself. TfL requesting the S stock build is slowed down to take six months longer means there some slack in Derby (but not really to help the Electrostar production line).



Yes it is. Unless its a 377/6 then you on some sort of plastic bench.

Its possibly achievable if Bombardiers suppliers can supply the required parts it time, as for the seats well it will be interesting to see what the seats are like but I would be surprised if the standard class ones are any different to a 377/6 as it seems to me that ironing board seats are the de facto standard for short to medium distance trains now.

 

[ScotGG]

But the 377s are released by the arrival of the 700s so no chance in getting them earlier. Not that SE has used the fact its fleets been boosted with 319s and 377/5s on services that used to be Networker or 375 run really.

Any chance of getting some 365s from Thameslink going to SE before then as they're being replaced I read and came from SE?

Or agreeing to push through with the further options on orders with Bombardier that I think are still open? If these for GE are to be finished by 2015 then a further order may lead to trains coming through in 2016 - better than the wait on offer now if that's possible.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with London Bridge rebuilding for three years. If severe overcrowding occurs on SE routes is it right that the Gatwick Express gets new trains and the 442s scrapped when a couple of years more work could perhaps be got out of them, and those new trains due on it instead be used to aid SE routes until 2018 when the rebuilding is finished and 9 through platforms open, crossrail opens and 377/1s are available and then the 387s can move over to Gatwick Express work.

 

[Class377/5]

Any chance of getting some 365s from Thameslink going to SE before then as they're being replaced I read and came from SE?

Doubt it as it would have already been agreed as part of the direct award.

Or agreeing to push through with the further options on orders with Bombardier that I think are still open? If these for GE are to be finished by 2015 then a further order may lead to trains coming through in 2016 - better than the wait on offer now if that's possible.

You can't just agree more orders like that. You have to go to tender which means by the time you'd be placing an order it'll be late 2015 and units start arriving at best early 2017 meaning they wouldn't get the use on SE to justify the cost.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with London Bridge rebuilding for three years. If severe overcrowding occurs on SE routes is it right that the Gatwick Express gets new trains and the 442s scrapped when a couple of years more work could perhaps be got out of them, and those new trains due on it instead be used to aid SE routes until 2018 when the rebuilding is finished and 9 through platforms open, crossrail opens and 377/1s are available and then the 387s can move over to Gatwick Express work.

It is right GatEx gets new trains? Don't forget the airport service is a premium service which requires suitable stock.

Who said the 442s are to be scrapped? There's proposals to use the stock post GatEx.

Your also forgetting there is a business case for the new 387s for GatEx (on which the Dec 2015 timetable re-write is based on having) which SE won't have so you can't just magically transfer them to SE.

 

[ScotGG]

I hope the 442s are reused but most on here seem to conclude they are for scrap. I'd happy for that to be wrong.

In terms of having to re-tender I recall reading on here there was a separate add-on option to an existing order so far not taken up. Is that so and if so does that require a new tender process?

I hope I'm wrong here but I can see severe overcrowding on SE metro routes the next three years, and it seems to be near the bottom of the list for new stock. When it does get some London Bridge rebuilding is pretty much complete & crossrail opens to alleviate the strain. It is very likely that service cuts and mass developments in areas served by metro routes will badly stretch things before then.

 

[47802]

I hope the 442s are reused but most on here seem to conclude they are for scrap. I'd happy for that to be wrong.

In terms of having to re-tender I recall reading on here there was a separate add-on option to an existing order so far not taken up. Is that so and if so does that require a new tender process?

I hope I'm wrong here but I can see severe overcrowding on SE metro routes the next three years, and it seems to be near the bottom of the list for new stock. When it does get some London Bridge rebuilding is pretty much complete & crossrail opens to alleviate the strain. It is very likely that service cuts and mass developments in areas served by metro routes will badly stretch things before then.

The Gatwick Express order is using the agreed 387 follow on option of up to 140 vehicles, (108) which potentially still leaves an additional 32 vehicles as a option, beyond that there would presumably need to be a new tender process.

It has been stated elsewhere that Bombardier are hoping for another final additional Electrostar order from an unspecified TOC, before moving on to Build Aventra's

 

[ScotGG]

The Gatwick Express order is using the agreed 387 follow on option of up to 140 vehicles, (108) which potentially still leaves an additional 32 vehicles as a option, beyond that there would presumably need to be a new tender process.

It has been stated elsewhere that Bombardier are hoping for another final additional Electrostar order from an unspecified TOC, before moving on to Build Aventra's

Thanks. I have big doubts some SE metro routes will be able to cope for the next 3 years and if so those 32 vehicles would come in handy to allow more 12 car running on the Greenwich line with SDO at Woolwich Dockyard, which existing SE metro stock (465/466) cannot do. Probably a pipe dream with such a small number. If so best of luck to the area as it will need it!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The door pattern (end doors with vestibules) is no good for an airport shuttle, "commuter" doors like the 387s are far better as it allows quick boarding and alighting and gives a nice area for some bulky luggage

I still don't understand this, why is boarding/unloading time considered more important for an airport service than getting a comfortable seat when the service is branded as an 'express' and so therefore presumably doesn't have many stops? If you only have two or three stops with 2min dwell times the service is still going to be quicker than if you have eight stops with 1min dwell times.

The doors on class 442s are apparently particularly narrow (I think there's been some comments that some types of wheelchair might be too wide for them), so perhaps there is a problem getting luggage through them. That doesn't mean something with wider end-doors (like a class 175 perhaps) wouldn't be suitable, does it? And if not, why not?

 

[jon0844]

Trains generally stop for a fair time at airports anyway, and even with wider doors you're going to get people blocking them as they get off and retrieve their mobile homes, sorry, suitcases.

Ultimately, however you have the doors, you simply need to factor in a longer dwell time at the airport and key stations along the way.

 

[hwl]

I still don't understand this, why is boarding/unloading time considered more important for an airport service than getting a comfortable seat when the service is branded as an 'express' and so therefore presumably doesn't have many stops? If you only have two or three stops with 2min dwell times the service is still going to be quicker than if you have eight stops with 1min dwell times.

The doors on class 442s are apparently particularly narrow (I think there's been some comments that some types of wheelchair might be too wide for them), so perhaps there is a problem getting luggage through them. That doesn't mean something with wider end-doors (like a class 175 perhaps) wouldn't be suitable, does it? And if not, why not?

The key thing it is a BML service and therefore dwell time trumps all.

For the pure non stop express the journey time is only 30 minutes so time spent getting on or off at either end can be significant with the narrow doors. If it feels like it takes ages to get off the train it doesn't feel its been worth taking the express as the Southern 2 stop service is also most as quick and significantly cheaper. If extending every other service to Brighton or doing some intermediate stops is wanted the dwell time has to be minimised else other services have to be withdrawn to create viable paths which is counter productive. Also minimising dwell time at the termini means less stock might be needed as the units can be turned quicker.

 

[47802]

The key thing it is a BML service and therefore dwell time trumps all.

For the pure non stop express the journey time is only 30 minutes so time spent getting on or off at either end can be significant with the narrow doors. If it feels like it takes ages to get off the train it doesn't feel its been worth taking the express as the Southern 2 stop service is also most as quick and significantly cheaper. If extending every other service to Brighton or doing some intermediate stops is wanted the dwell time has to be minimised else other services have to be withdrawn to create viable paths which is counter productive. Also minimising dwell time at the termini means less stock might be needed as the units can be turned quicker.

Well Rhydgalad has a thing about end doors, but somehow I think a 387 with wide doors is much more suited to Airport passengers and commuters.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well Rhydgalad has a thing about end doors, but somehow I think a 387 with wide doors is much more suited to Airport passengers and commuters.

Heathrow Express - 1/3/2/3 doors
Stansted Express - 1/3/2/3 doors
Former Gatwick Express 460 stock - 1/3/2/3 doors

QED