Proposed new SWT services for Yeovil, including Pen Mill via Westbury/Frome

[21C101]

Why?

Hmm.


I hope your joking there.

Yes, I'm joking. or am I (strokes cat)....

Why?
If they are a good franchise who thinks it will make money they will run it well, if not they won't. This sounds like some kind of WR hates SR and visa versa, whice I cannot believe is still so true that a sensible management who wanted to make money and valued the route could not overcome.

If both lines are under the same management, the management will concentrate their efforts on the current main intercity route to Paddington, they will welcome any revenue the Southern route brought but you would find an end to attractive fares to London on the Southern route, Waterloo trains caped at Yeovil Junction when GW trains are diverted that way (which used to happen under BR and in the early days of SWT until SWT put a stop to it - meaning longer journey times for diverted GW trains and fewer of them) etc.

The management just won't have the time for much initiative on a "secondary route" and will find it very tempting to borrow some of the 159s to overcome the famous GW stock shortages elsewhere, leading to unreliablity and overcrowding. You certainly wouldn't see initiatives such as the proposed trains to Yeovil Pen Mill.

Do you think any of the Evergreen upgrades would have happened if Marylebone to Birmingham had been part of the West Coast Main Line Franchise? The route would still be largely single track with one an hour venturing north of High Wycombe and terminating at Banbury.

It would also be disastrous for operational reasons, meaning more than one operator into congested Waterloo (which is why the plan to move it to Wessex Trains got canned) and disrupting the current successful SWT NR alliance and amounting to an Orcats raid on SWT between Basingstoke and Waterloo.

 

[Taunton]

gaps from 09.06 to 11.06 and from 11.06 to 13.06 which killed any idea of me trying to go to Chard from Paddington.

Ah, 10.30 Cornish Riviera with a "King", slip coach dropped at Taunton about 1 pm, over to the bay for the next Chard train which was .... oh, 2.35. I see what you mean

Now, poor old Taunton

a considerable distance from the town centre. And Station Road isn't exactly the best advertisement for the town centre which is pretty good for shopping.

Not so bad a road, I walked it daily to/from school. It also once had a Chinese restaurant, only one in the town, where as a 5 year old taken there for the first time I was amazed when the telephone rang and the waiter ... spoke Chinese on it ... on a British telephone !! Anyway, I digress. And so do you lot thinking

Crewkerne ... Congestion free

is somehow comparable. Now I know the Crewkerne lot think they've gone up in the world ever since they got the Waitrose, but as far as comparing their "station" to Taunton, you bet it's congestion free at the station because it's way outside the town (a speciality of this route, think Yeovil, Crewkerne, Chard), one platform, one track, not a signal or point to be seen, in fact what the GWR would have called a Halt. It's also an unpleasant road to walk along through the countryside towards the town, busy, not well lit, and I recall the station car park holds about 30 cars, so you'd be stumped once it's full.

You seem to forget that Taunton used to be a major railhead with lines to Barnstaple, Chard via Ilminster, Minehead & Yeovil Town via Langport & Martock, both the Barnstaple & Yeovil lines being victims of Beeching.

Did them all (even Chard, first to close), so unlikely to forget. The only one of those that had any reasonable loads was Minehead. Yeovil carried few, certainly no connections (who would have gone via Westbury), while Chard was a dead loss, as was the Barnstaple line once beyond Wiveliscombe, where half a dozen passengers was typical.

 

[vikingdriver]

...not a signal or point to be seen

Apart from the two signals, one at either end of the platform!

 

[Taunton]

OK, it's been many years. When was it singled here? Must be getting on for 50 years ago now.

 

[21C101]

Did them all (even Chard, first to close), so unlikely to forget. The only one of those that had any reasonable loads was Minehead. Yeovil carried few, certainly no connections (who would have gone via Westbury), while Chard was a dead loss, as was the Barnstaple line once beyond Wiveliscombe, where half a dozen passengers was typical.

I don't think anyone could have saved the Barnstaple line.

Yeovil could probably have been saved if the then Salisbury-Yeovil Junction local services (some of which had through coaches to Waterloo) that ran until 1964ish had been extended to Taunton via Yeovil Town.

Similarly, as run Chard was a Basket case but I reckon if Waterloo Salisbury Yeovil-Crewkerne-Chard-Ilminster-Taunton services had run it would have been quite a useful route. Of course the GWR deliberately left the Chard Branch as broad gauge, years or decades after the rest had gone standard gauge, until the final abolition of broad gauge in 1892, precisely to prevent this happening.

Minehead was unlucky to close. I suspect had it been a staunch Labour constituency Barbera Castle would have looked favourably at a Passenger Service Obligation Grant for it in the late 60s. I presume an isolated DMU service miles from the depot at Bristol was expensive to operate. Ironically now it could have been operated as a through Bristol -Minehead service extending the Taunton terminators. - of course if FGW were as forward thinking as SWT then it probably would be operating as such, or at least to Bishops Lydeard, as SWT it appears soon will be on the Swanage Branch.

The thing that really suprises me though is that Somerton (or Langport) and Wellington stations remain firmly shut. The LSW west of Salisbury has already seen three reopen (Feniton, Pinhoe and Templecombe) with a fourth (Broadclyst) to reopen as Cranbook and a fifth, Wilton, as soon as Wiltshire Council get the cash together. Perhaps the next phase of SWTs eccentric route stragegy will see Wateloo Yeovil Terminators extended to Bishops Lydeard calling at Yeovil Pen Mill, Castle Cary, Somerton, Langport & Taunton.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, it's been many years. When was it singled here? Must be getting on for 50 years ago now.

The signals went in about a year ago. Prior to that there was an intermediate block in the down direction with a distant off the end of the platform. The day of infamy when it was singled was in 1966. Amazingly Yeovil Junction only survived by the skin of its teeth. The original plan was that pax <s>would use Yeovil Pen Mill and change at Westbury so that ex GW line had a better chance</s> be bussed to sherborne. Fiennes had a rant about failing to secure the closure of Yeovil Junction in his book.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, Minehead was about the one unfortunate loss; to the end half the trains were worked by Derby 3-car suburban sets from Bristol, without gangways, and thus all the intermediate stations had to remain staffed. There was a significant reduction in infrastructure costs in the mid-1960s, about two-thirds of the loops and signalboxes were cut out, and if Gerry Fiennes had stayed at Paddington and did what he had done in East Anglia on branch line costs, it could well have made it through to today.

Thing about Somerton, and I would add Langport, both in the centre of small towns, is there's no real intermediate service on the line in the Waterloo route style (which in turn has no expresses). Everything is long distance. If nothing long-distance stopped between Taunton and Reading, and there was a separate service from Taunton to London picking off the intermediate points, I'd like to see how that would work out financially. It always seems wasteful to serve the likes of Castle Cary with a seat that then generally is not sat in again all the way down to Penzance.

Minehead ... staunch Labour constituency

Best joke of the day

 

[21C101]

Best joke of the day

Well, when the National Boatialists are not standing and having their rallies at the Axis Cafe.

 

[dgl]

There is a signal at Crewkerne IIRC. Believe it's in the down direction (towards Exeter). and yes it is not a very big station or that close to the town centre (it's actually in Misterton after all).

And they may have a Waitrose but that is cancelled out by the Lidl over the road (Crewkerne amazingly has 3 supermarkets within 50m!).

 

[Taunton]

Well, when the National Boatialists are not standing and having their rallies at the Axis Cafe.

The principal character in which (JC), also from Somerset, had previously been a scriptwriter on TW3. Where, one evening, Caryl Brahms read out, amazingly for a sophisticated (for its time) political satire TV program, the day following publication of the Beeching Report :

Old engines with their primal anger gone
Their fire and fury rusted quite away
No longer chuffing into Platform One,
Butchered to make a scrapyard's holiday.
Don't think they will not take take it hard at Hatch,
Thornfalcon, Donyatt, Chard, their summary despatch.


Platform One was indeed the Chard arrival platform at Taunton.

Did JC write it?

 

[21C101]

I've heard that the proposed South West franchise which it has been stated upthread will include Waterloo - Exeter won't include the Paddington - Penzance intercities and the Waterloo - Exter route is included to give the franchise a route to London and therefore give it critical mass. Essentially a resurrection of the Wessex trains franchise renewal idea that was canned a few years ago in favour of leaving Waterloo - Exeter with SWT and everything else going to GW.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

If these changes/additions to the SWT Services do take place, will they need to get more 158/159s? if so where would they come from?

It would also mean one or two reversals at the two stations in Yeovil. (Mind you, didn't that used to happen in the days of steam at Templecombe?)

As well as possibly going through to Barnstable which has been suggested here, it would be good if they bought back their odd through coaches to Plymouth & Paignton which I did use from time to time and was very useful and while we're at it, I suppose Exmouth would be another possibility, after all LSWR/SR did used to have coaches that went there & Sidmouth I think too?

I hope they keep the SWT Bristol service too.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If these changes/additions to the SWT Services do take place, will they need to get more 158/159s? if so where would they come from?

It would also mean one or two reversals at the two stations in Yeovil. (Mind you, didn't that used to happen in the days of steam at Templecombe?)

As well as possibly going through to Barnstable which has been suggested here, it would be good if they bought back their odd through coaches to Plymouth & Paignton which I did use from time to time and was very useful and while we're at it, I suppose Exmouth would be another possibility, after all LSWR/SR did used to have coaches that went there & Sidmouth I think too?

I hope they keep the SWT Bristol service too.

On some days a 159 can be freed up by the Lymington branch using electric all the time (not sure if that has already happened)

 

[swt_passenger]

On some days a 159 can be freed up by the Lymington branch using electric all the time (not sure if that has already happened)

Lymington is a 158. On occasions when the DMU has failed a 'maintenance spare' 450 has been provided to substitute.

It is currently electric on weekends, but a 450 will be used 7/7 from the December timetable change.

SWT are apparently losing two or three 158s by December to other franchises, possibly the FGW hire in goes permanent and maybe a couple to EMT.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As well as possibly going through to Barnstable which has been suggested here, it would be good if they bought back their odd through coaches to Plymouth & Paignton which I did use from time to time and was very useful and while we're at it, I suppose Exmouth would be another possibility, after all LSWR/SR did used to have coaches that went there & Sidmouth I think too?

They won't do any of that, it is not in the SW franchise spec, the Plymouth and Paignton services were already replaced by some additional FGW services.

The changes under discussion, on the other hand, are a matter of a franchise 'deed of amendment' by DfT. SWT won't have enough extra stock in any case, given the number of 158s is planned to reduce.

Some extra services to Yeovil Junction are extensions of existing short workings (e.g. to Gillingham), and the runs to Yeovil Pen Mill and back can be done in marginal time. Some ECS route retention services are being brought into passenger service. Some units that currently detach at Salisbury and go onto the depot will be detaching and running via Westbury. Fleet running hours will increase. Some 159s used entirely on DC routes in the peaks will be transferred to the West of England services .

I hope they keep the SWT Bristol service too.

There is no reason that won't continue, because it is in the franchise spec.

 

[PHILIPE]

See thread re Lymington going electric in December:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110866

 

[30907]

I suppose Exmouth would be another possibility, after all LSWR/SR did used to have coaches that went there & Sidmouth I think too?

They did, but via Tipton St John. No paths on the Exmouth branch these days except evenings and Sundays, even if there was a commercial case.

 

[infobleep]

Lymington is a 158. On occasions when the DMU has failed a 'maintenance spare' 450 has been provided to substitute.

It is currently electric on weekends, but a 450 will be used 7/7 from the December timetable change.

SWT are apparently losing two or three 158s by December to other franchises, possibly the FGW hire in goes permanent and maybe a couple to EMT.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



They won't do any of that, it is not in the SW franchise spec, the Plymouth and Paignton services were already replaced by some additional FGW services.

The changes under discussion, on the other hand, are a matter of a franchise 'deed of amendment' by DfT. SWT won't have enough extra stock in any case, given the number of 158s is planned to reduce.

Some extra services to Yeovil Junction are extensions of existing short workings (e.g. to Gillingham), and the runs to Yeovil Pen Mill and back can be done in marginal time. Some ECS route retention services are being brought into passenger service. Some units that currently detach at Salisbury and go onto the depot will be detaching and running via Westbury. Fleet running hours will increase. Some 159s used entirely on DC routes in the peaks will be transferred to the West of England services .



There is no reason that won't continue, because it is in the franchise spec.

Unless they do a deed of variation and take it out of the franchise spec.

With these changes and the existing infrastructure, what will be left to implement when the next ITT document gets published? It seems everything is being done now, which is great for passengers.

However usually ITT documents have changes and improvements. I wouldn't have thought they can do that many improvements because the existing infrastructure is what it is and it isn't changing anytime soon. Or have I go that wrong?

 

[swt_passenger]

With these changes and the existing infrastructure, what will be left to implement when the next ITT document gets published? It seems everything is being done now, which is great for passengers.

The Wessex Route Study (draft), explains capacity improvements on the mainline due by the end of the current control period (Apr 2019) which is exactly when the next real franchise starts after the direct award (Apr 2019).

That ITT will also have to deal with the outputs of the Waterloo International remodelling which allows for the extra Windsor side services, such as the through trains from Camberley etc mentioned in a recent thread. Oh and the Reading 10 car service, and the Desiro City introduction.

All in all there are loads of changes in the timescales of the ITT for the next competitive franchise, which if we're lucky will include the Woking grade separation, which must also lead to timetable changes on the main lines.

 

[infobleep]

With the Desiro it's easy to forget it will happen then because it was announced whilst South West Trains still hold the franchise. So you feel like it's benefitting them rather than the next franchise. Of course I hope the are the next franchise holder.

 

[pete_m911]

Any chance of a Salisbury - Taunton service I wonder? Probably the two biggest places in the region without a direct service.

 

[TheWalrus]

Any chance of a Salisbury - Taunton service I wonder? Probably the two biggest places in the region without a direct service.

Probably not but it's a good idea. Are you thinking via Westbury or Yeovil?

 

[21C101]

Its Official now.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/So...s plans for new West of England services.aspx

South West Trains unveils plans for new West of England services

• Major timetable improvements being proposed for Somerset, Dorset and Devon
• New half-hourly services between Waterloo and Yeovil
• New connections between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill
• Bruton and Frome connected to London Waterloo for the first time ever
• Additional services from Exeter to Honiton
• 1850 Waterloo to Salisbury extended to Yeovil Pen Mill via Gillingham
• New services planned from Dec 2015 subject to consultation and regulatory approval

The proposals appear to go further than those in the document further up the thread and include

• Half-hourly train service from London to Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne and Yeovil Junction between 15:20 and 19:20
• More than doubling the existing train service at Yeovil Pen Mill with an additional 18 South West Trains’ services every day
• 17 trains every day connecting Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill
• Connecting Bruton directly with London for the first time (4 trains per day)
• Offering Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome direct services to/from Basingstoke, Woking and Clapham Junction (4 trains per day)
• Yeovil Junction, Sherborne and Templecombe have 2 additional trains in the mid-afternoon – 13:50 from London Waterloo and 15:53 from Yeovil Junction
• 2 trains per hour from Exeter to Honiton during the Exeter evening peak
• Yeovil Pen Mill will have 7 direct trains from and 3 trains to London Waterloo each weekday

Anyone wanting to comment about the proposals is advised:

If you would like to provide any feedback about the proposed changes, please submit your comments by Friday 20th March to [email protected]

 

[dgl]

Amazing to think that a train station for years only served by one operator is set to be the lesser user of the station (albeit not by much but less nonetheless).

 

[21C101]

Amazing to think that a train station for years only served by one operator is set to be the lesser user of the station (albeit not by much but less nonetheless).

Indeed. It is not something I ever expected to see.

Meanwhile redoubling of the whole Salisbury - Exeter route looks set for control period 6.

David Laws welcomes rail announcement (4th March). Extract

“David Laws, MP for Yeovil constituency, has welcomed the announcement made today by Danny Alexander MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, that the Government is asking the South West Peninsula Rail Task Force to look at ways to twin track the Salisbury to Exeter railway Line.

Speaking this morning at the launch of a South West Infrastructure Package, Mr. Alexander announced that he has asked the Rail Task Force to bring forward their proposals to improve the region’s rail network, including the Salisbury to Exeter line, to June 2016. This will ensure that the proposals are ready in time for the next round of rail investment to be announced in July 2017. Mr. Laws met with Danny Alexander recently to discuss the Salisbury to Exeter line and push the case to double track this stretch of railway. The line, which serves passengers travelling to and from the South West, is currently only a single track and this can cause severe delays when any problems do arise.”

http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/news/11836172.David_Laws_welcomes_rail_announcement/

 

[Kite159]

Is there going to be enough 158s/159s for the additional services?

 

[DaveHarries]

Excellent news. I don't use the line very much but I am sure that regular users will certainly welcome the extra trains. Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill: when was the last time a passenger service existed between the two on a regular basis?

Dave

 

[PHILIPE]

Is there going to be enough 158s/159s for the additional services?

So far as December 2015 is concerned, the Yeovil Pen Mill etc., additionals will be encompassed through layover time at Yeovil Jn and utilisation of ECSs.
This has already been pointed out on the Forum. Also the Lymington 158 will be available but talk of 1 going to EMT.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

How will the new SWT services to Westbury, Castle Cary, Bruton, Frome be worked? will they be totally new services, or extentions to the existing Exeter & Bristol trains, with carriages / units splitting off to to serve these destinations, at the moment, Westbury is served by the Waterloo / Bristol trains.

 

[HowardGWR]

I started a thread in the general section as these are not just timetable improvements but a whole new service and a spreading of SWT tentacles which 'looks good' and is 'about time'. My post was deleted by mods, on the basis it should have been here, but I think this is very similar to Chiltern whereby you have a company actually doing something new and being enterprising, so it's a general point.

Doubtless, we will recognise that this has a lot do do with longer term franchising and joint working with NR. That was the point I was making.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there going to be enough 158s/159s for the additional services?

How will the new SWT services to Westbury, Castle Cary, Bruton, Frome be worked? will they be totally new services, or extentions to the existing Exeter & Bristol trains, with carriages / units splitting off to to serve these destinations, at the moment, Westbury is served by the Waterloo / Bristol trains.

They are achieved by a number of methods; extensions of existing Gillingham terminators, shuttles up and down to Yeovil Pen Mill during otherwise idle time at Westbury, diversion of portions removed or added at Salisbury, some existing ECS route retention moves via Westbury converted to passenger use.

There are intended to be additional DMUs available following the full 458/5 and 456 introduction because as well as the Lymington shuttle going EMU 7/7 there are other DMU diagrams running purely on third rail that will go full time EMU - probably on a one for one 450 replace 159 basis.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Shame no one has the money to build a spur at Templecombe towards Wincanton & reinstate the Amesbury branch, both are now sizeable places in their own right, especially Amesbury with the large airbase & military bases of Larkhill & Bulford.

Those would enhance things quite nicely for those on Salisbury Plain & SE Somerset.