Prospects of HSTs surviving on "Highland Chieftain" (London/Inverness VTEC)

[BRX]

Can HSTs be retrofitted to stop them spraying poo everywhere? I suspect that their exemption from this requirement may be expiring??

Yes they can, and some will be.

 

[nat67]

I hope so, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too much.

Are bi-modes cleared for all routes operated by VTEC or are there some routes where they aren't?

If they are cleared then the company may be prepared to use a sub-optimal path if the concerns are just performance related, but it's possible that option may not be available to them.

I have been told that Scotrail did a questionnaire about what train they would like to work through to Inverness and so forth. And the public said they liked the VTEC HST to Inverness than 170's as they would be more quieter and less compacted as they are 9 coaches not 3 or 4 coaches. Virgin took this into account as there would be less coaches to Inverness as it would only be a 5 coach Bi-mode set. I hope they continue to use them after 2020 even though it will only be plug door.

 

[najaB]

ou seem hung up on issues about the route it runs on. What would be the practical problems caused by it being the only XC train running between York and London?

Of course there may be some that I am not aware of, and which would trump the rolling stock benefits.

Route knowledge, stabling and maintenance, rolling stock utilisation and staffing issues (crew base in London) come to mind.

And what are the benefits again?

 

[BRX]

Route knowledge, stabling and maintenance, rolling stock utilisation and staffing issues (crew base in London) come to mind.

All issues that VTEC currently have to deal with on the Edinburgh-Inverness leg of the Highland Chieftain, on which it spends nearly twice as much time as it does York-London.

Granted it would be a service with this situation at both ends, and your suggestion that transferring it to Scotrail operation might make more sense is a valid one, especially if Scotrail are going to be running a fleet of refurbished HSTs.

And what are the benefits again?

It would depend on what rolling stock options would be presented by either staying with VTEC or moving to another operator. *If* the options were a 5 coach bimode which struggled to keep to current timings, vs a refurbished 9 coach HST, I'd say an arrangement that allowed the latter would provide a strong benefit.

 

[tbtc]

Couple it up to a DRS 68 at Perth or Edinburgh.........which is what a LHCS with an electric loco could have done at much much lesser cost...

There not known as Daft for nothing.

I'm not sure that they are generally known as "Daft", other than amongst a certain type of train enthusiast.

And how much of a time penalty would there need to be (for IET compared to current HST paths) until it was worth getting a locomotive devoted to hauling two services a day?

With regards to electrifying to Perth, NR needs to get on and complete what its supposed to electrifying first (i.e. EGIP) before even thinking about further routes.

Good point, one worth repeating on a number of threads.

Until we can get existing commitments wired (including East Kilbride, Bristol, Oxford, Bedford to Sheffield, Stalybridge to York, the Valley Lines...) then it's pointless worrying about "nice to have" schemes.

Neither of you have clearly ever used the Chieftain - it's one of VTEC's most profitable trains

Interesting that there's never been any serious suggestion of increased provision on the Inverness to London corridor, given how apparently profitable the Chieftain is.

An extra service as far as Stirling, sure, but no further.

Nottingham-Cardiffs are basically the same as they were 20 years ago but with a misleading sheen of Intercity on the advertising

I remember using the services quite a bit after the millennium, and it being a bi-hourly Nottingham – Cardiff 150 provided by Central Trains which dovetailed with a bi-hourly Birmingham – Cardiff service provided by Wales & West that could throw up any old DMU – often a 158. Around half the services took the slow route through Worcester and many of the W&W trains ran through to Swansea and beyond – similar to the way that the Manchester – Cardiff services now run). As a result, reliability was pretty poor.

Now, there’s a modern 170 on a clockface hourly timetable (and no slow diversions via Worcester) – I’d call that more than just a sheen of advertising.

leads to the question of whether it makes sense to have Inverness-London as part of the EC franchise. Perhaps it would be more sensible to hand it over to Crosscountry, for example.

I'm don't want the HC to be run with a Voyager any more than I want it to terminate at Edinburgh, neither of which things I proposed. It was a purely hypothetical musing in response to tbtc's post commenting that the requirements for the Highland section of its run were different to all of the rest of the EC network.

I simply argue that the ideal train for the HC would be similar to the ideal train for many of XC's long distance routes. In a scenario where XC procured a batch of such trains, I think there would be a case for considering moving the service into that franchise.

I could equally say that aside from spending a little more than half of its time on their core route, nothing else about it fits into the EC model.

When the HC was introduced, prior to electrification of the ECML, HSTs were in charge of services on that line and it obviously made sense to extend some of those north of Edinburgh. Times have changed, and the ECML is a primarily electric operation, leaving the north-of Edinburgh services as the odd-ones out. I don't see any compelling reason why those services should necessarily continue to be run by the same operator as the principle London-Edinburgh ones. The ECML already has multiple operators, several of which also operate intercity services into KX. There's no more logic in Inverness services being operated by the main EC franchise than there is in those currently run by Grand Central or Hull Trains for example.

I think you’ve raised an interesting idea here – one which others have been keen to shoot down but one which is worth considering. Maybe it's taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but there are plenty of other fanciful suggestions that haven't attracted the same outrage.

The Chieftain is an oddity – it was fine for such a service to exist in BR days, but it doesn’t fit into the world of franchises. There’s nothing wrong with that but a number of other services beyond the “core” have been withdrawn over the years (e.g. XC running to Ramsgate, services from the WCML to Aberdeen) and there are sometimes suggestions about other services being withdrawn (e.g. FGW to Brighton).

So it doesn’t belong in a particular franchise. It’s not unique in that respect, but since the Forum has seen several threads suggesting alternative operators/ destinations for other “oddball” routes like Liverpool – Norwich (or suggestions about cutting other routes due to stock being sub-optimal or extended electrification) then I see no harm in a bit of blue sky thinking about the Chieftain.

Personally, I don’t think that IET will be a significant enough problem on the HML to warrant any kind of changes – but if the 2020s will see other operators with HSTs based at Neville Hill (whilst VTEC run a wholly IET franchise) then the idea of running an HST from Neville Hill to Inverness and back on a two-day cycle via London might be worth considering – possibly officially “on hire” to VTEC – but aren’t XC moving their HSTs to Heaton… oh well, maybe EMT can run HSTs to Inverness instead! (removes tongue from cheek)

So you're against connections to cities which don't fit the catchment of the brand itself? So, in theory, you would be completely axing Inverness, Aberdeen, Hull, Skipton, Lincoln, Harrogate, Bradford, Sunderland, Glasgow - from VTEC services under your own analogy?

I think you've jumped to a bit of a conclusion there... nobody is suggesting that IET will be unable to meet current paths from London to Lincoln/ Bradford/ Sunderland etc... people are suggesting that IET might be unable to match HST performance north of Perth... look at what BRX is actually saying, rather than putting words into their mouth.

XC would need a London crew base for one service a day

No need – IIRC the Chieftain duty works a morning service from Neville Hill to Kings Cross (can’t remember whether it’s Harrogate or Hull or Lincoln) then north from Kings Cross to Inverness during the daytime – the following day it works south from Inverness to Kings Cross in time to work a tea time service that finishes at Neville Hill (again, could be Harrogate or Hull or Lincoln, doesn’t really matter which one – the point is that it’s a duty that starts in Leeds and finishes in Inverness, then starts in Inverness and finishes in Leeds).

There are many reasons against giving the Chieftain to XC but a London crew base isn’t one of them.

If you *really* wanted to transfer the service to another operator it would make more sense of it to be either VTWC and run down the WCML (fits into the London to... and they operate Voyagers) or Scotrail (since it is, effectively Inverness to Edinburgh and Edinburgh to London) though this would have made more sense before CS was hived off as a new franchise.

That’s an option – if the stock is more suitable then there’s no reason why Inverness – London has to be Inverness – Kings Cross.

And rename it The Clansman!

... only if it stops in Craiglang on the way south, with Boabby providing the catering...

 

[najaB]

No need – IIRC the Chieftain duty works a morning service from Neville Hill to Kings Cross (can’t remember whether it’s Harrogate or Hull or Lincoln) then north from Kings Cross to Inverness during the daytime – the following day it works south from Inverness to Kings Cross in time to work a tea time service that finishes at Neville Hill (again, could be Harrogate or Hull or Lincoln, doesn’t really matter which one – the point is that it’s a duty that starts in Leeds and finishes in Inverness, then starts in Inverness and finishes in Leeds).

There are many reasons against giving the Chieftain to XC but a London crew base isn’t one of them.

Leeds-London is a core GR route so it fits into their operation. Leeds-London isn't a XC route so we're adding another 'odd' route into their operation.

Interesting that there's never been any serious suggestion of increased provision on the Inverness to London corridor, given how apparently profitable the Chieftain is.

An extra service as far as Stirling, sure, but no further.

Because it's such a long route that there's not much room for later/earlier services.

 

[BRX]

What a lot of this really points to is the stupidity of the franchise system we are currently stuck with.

By the way is it really true that the Chieftain is one of VTEC's most profitable trains?

If so I'd be surprised if the north-of-Perth part of the route is responsible for that profitability - ie. if it ran to the same timings but omitted Perth-Inverness it would probably not lose VTEC any money (just speculation).

Before anyone panics I am not suggesting the HC should be cut short! It's important to have continuous long distance services to provide people with options for long journeys that minimise train changes. It's a shame that we've lost a lot of these long distance services over the past few decades. Again it seems the franchise system may be partly responsible for this, with a push to fit services to "logical" route groupings that are convenient for operators rather than passengers.

 

[BRX]

Because it's such a long route that there's not much room for later/earlier services.

It would be feasible and useful to have an Inverness-London leaving around midday (allowing connections from disparate parts of the highlands, whether by train or other modes) and getting to London mid evening. A mirror service to the nothbound chieftain, if you like.

Likewise, leaving London early morning and arriving Inverness mid afternoon, again giving opportunity for onward connections.

The HC timings are handy for people who start in or near Inverness but not very good for connections at that end, in either direction.

 

[najaB]

It would be feasible and useful to have an Inverness-London leaving around midday (allowing connections from disparate parts of the highlands, whether by train or other modes) and getting to London mid evening. A mirror service to the nothbound chieftain, if you like.

That would require an Edinburgh-Inverness forward working in the morning. Not necessarily a show-stopper but it does step on Scotrail's toes, so to speak.

 

[GusB]

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but we're in "what-if" land at the moment anyway - how about Scotrail running the Chieftain, and perhaps the Aberdeen - Kings Cross services?

They will have HSTs, so crews will be trained. A couple of longer sets will be required, but I can't see that being an issue. That would allow whoever happens to be in charge of the East Coast franchise to concentrate on Edinburgh - London and the various other places inbetween.

 

[BRX]

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but we're in "what-if" land at the moment anyway - how about Scotrail running the Chieftain, and perhaps the Aberdeen - Kings Cross services?

They will have HSTs, so crews will be trained. A couple of longer sets will be required, but I can't see that being an issue. That would allow whoever happens to be in charge of the East Coast franchise to concentrate on Edinburgh - London and the various other places inbetween.

I think it could make a lot of sense.

 

[jopsuk]

I've not read the whole thread, but I have seen tale before of Transport Scotland floating the idea of having no cross border daytime services north of Edinburgh.

 

[najaB]

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but we're in "what-if" land at the moment anyway - how about Scotrail running the Chieftain, and perhaps the Aberdeen - Kings Cross services?

There's some logic to it, the main sticking point is that rail services in England are specified by the DfT and those in Scotland by Transport Scotland.

 

[takno]

I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but we're in "what-if" land at the moment anyway - how about Scotrail running the Chieftain, and perhaps the Aberdeen - Kings Cross services?

They will have HSTs, so crews will be trained. A couple of longer sets will be required, but I can't see that being an issue. That would allow whoever happens to be in charge of the East Coast franchise to concentrate on Edinburgh - London and the various other places inbetween.

More than a third of the fast trains from Edinburgh to London are formed of Aberdeen, Stirling or Inverness services. There isn't some other "Edinburgh-London service" to concentrate on. They are the same trains.

 

[InOban]

1. I believe that once the wires reach Stirling, there are plans for WC services​.

2. Because the Chieftain is a 'proper' train at a business-friendly time, it is the train of choice for business traffic to both Edinburgh and Glasgow.

3. There have been repeated suggestions that all VTEC and XC trains should terminate in Edinburgh both because it would reduce the need for bimode or diesel services S of Edinburgh, and because it would bring a lot of income into Scotrail that is currently lost to English operators. There have been strong objections from train users so ScoGov have backed off.

 

[47271]

2. Because the Chieftain is a 'proper' train at a business-friendly time, it is the train of choice for business traffic to both Edinburgh and Glasgow.

It isn't my train of choice for business trips into Edinburgh or Glasgow: it arrives at Waverley too late in the morning and the return is too early in the afternoon. The northbound also has a nasty habit of getting very held up south of Edinburgh and not appearing when you need it.

When I do use it north of Edinburgh it's overwhelmingly filled with every sort of passenger other than business people: you get a lot of fretting about seat reservations, enormous suitcases and inane mobile phone yittering. I get more peace and quiet on Scotrail.

That's just me mind...

 

[Clansman]

1. I believe that once the wires reach Stirling, there are plans for WC services​.

Eh?

Although I recognise no-one is proposing axing the service, part of the reason the Chieftain is so popular is that it runs through 3 major cities en route, one of which is a Scotrail catchment which sees passengers aim specifically for the Chieftain to take advantage of its premium service. Although lots of passengers head through to London, let's be honest, how many passengers would use a WCML service which:

1) Would not be much quicker than ECML services

2) Doesn't pass through hubs which bare any sort of significance as Edinburgh, Newcastle and York - There are just as much York and Newcastle passengers from North of Edinburgh than there is London going by the reservations onboard. Preston and Crewe are your best bets on the West Coast - anything else would just be a time waster.

The only untapped at transport link which I reckon might be of some benefit would be Birmingham, which currently has an awful direct connection from North of Edinburgh, mainly due to the route being so long and the TOC's fares being the most expensive.

Just curious about the idea of WC services as I've not heard of the suggestions before - presuming you're speaking in the context of cross-border services?

 

[47271]

Eh?

Although I recognise no-one is proposing axing the service, part of the reason the Chieftain is so popular is that it runs through 3 major cities en route, one of which is a Scotrail catchment which sees passengers aim specifically for the Chieftain to take advantage of its premium service. Although lots of passengers head through to London, let's be honest, how many passengers would use a WCML service which:

1) Would not be much quicker than ECML services

2) Doesn't pass through hubs which bare any sort of significance as Edinburgh, Newcastle and York - There are just as much York and Newcastle passengers from North of Edinburgh than there is London going by the reservations onboard. Preston and Crewe are your best bets on the West Coast - anything else would just be a time waster.

The only untapped at transport link which I reckon might be of some benefit would be Birmingham, which currently has an awful direct connection from North of Edinburgh, mainly due to the route being so long and the TOC's fares being the most expensive.

Just curious about the idea of WC services as I've not heard of the suggestions before - presuming you're speaking in the context of cross-border services?

One VTWC Stirling to Euston via Birmingham per day is something that I might well use to Brum, or even Liverpool or Manchester, so long as it doesn't start out at silly o'clock.

 

[InOban]

The differences in journey opportunities between the East and West coast routes are well known, and has resulted in a tradition of train travel along the East which has not existed along the West. I would have assumed that any service would be an early departure similar to the recent East coast service from Stirling.

It would of course also serve Cumbernauld, Coatbridge and indeed Motherwell, which has a very poor InterCity service. I would expect it would run via Birmingham - it would still be quicker to London, and less hassle than getting into Glasgow Central.

 

[47271]

I'd love to know how many people are actually on that thing at 0526. It's like the VTEC direct Sunderland train which goes at a similar time, you can't help but think that they're only doing it so that they can say that they'll get you there before anything you can achieve by using the competition.

 

[Clansman]

I'd love to know how many people are actually on that thing at 0526. It's like the VTEC direct Sunderland train which goes at a similar time, you can't help but think that they're only doing it so that they can say that they'll get you there before anything you can achieve by using the competition.

Agree with you there. Part of the original plan for the service so I heard was to originate it from Perth, where, although it'd still be quiet, the service would catch a good from folk from there and Gleneagles.

Other than that it's a pointless service having it to Stirling - the evening train loadings to the likes of Perth are heaving, and with the crap times, I'm surprised Perth hasn't been done already.

 

[jopsuk]

when I've got the Down Stirling service the train has been more or less empty after Edinburgh

 

[Chrism20]

Just curious about the idea of WC services as I've not heard of the suggestions before - presuming you're speaking in the context of cross-border services?

Wasn't there a First proposal for Euston to Stirling when they bidded for the West Coast Main Line?

It's possible I've imagined or simply read it on a wish list on here but I've certainly heard it being suggested to go as far as Stirling in the past. Never heard anything about beyond that.

I'd love to know how many people are actually on that thing at 0526. It's like the VTEC direct Sunderland train which goes at a similar time, you can't help but think that they're only doing it so that they can say that they'll get you there before anything you can achieve by using the competition.

One morning last week I got on it in Edinburgh. There were two sitting in first class, standard looked empty and about twenty people got off.

My sister uses the northbound from Edinburgh to Falkirk a frequently due to it missing out Edinburgh park, Linlithgow etc etc and she says it's not uncommon to have a carriage to yourself.

The Edinburgh to Stirling leg is also one of the first to be cancelled if anything goes wrong as well.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Doing the HC in July from Edinburgh to Inverness, having got a 91 up from London

Better not be the ex EMT set or I'll go berserk!

 

[Class 170101]

The issue of the Highland Chieftain being served using only East Coast crews has only arisen since Privatisation prior to that ut was coovered by Scottish based crews in Scotland.

Now there is no reason why it couldn't be the same today if Scotrail were paid an appropriate sum of money by East Coast and the training given to the appropriate crews to operate HSTs. However East Coast have decided its cheaper / easier to have lodging turns than hire Scotrail crew.

NXEA and GN had a similar arrangement to cover NXEA Cambridge to Kings Lynn services but this fell through many years ago.

 

[43096]

Doing the HC in July from Edinburgh to Inverness, having got a 91 up from London

Better not be the ex EMT set or I'll go berserk!

1 in 14 chance of superior comfort!!

 

[47271]

The issue of the Highland Chieftain being served using only East Coast crews has only arisen since Privatisation prior to that ut was coovered by Scottish based crews in Scotland.

Now there is no reason why it couldn't be the same today if Scotrail were paid an appropriate sum of money by East Coast and the training given to the appropriate crews to operate HSTs. However East Coast have decided its cheaper / easier to have lodging turns than hire Scotrail crew.

NXEA and GN had a similar arrangement to cover NXEA Cambridge to Kings Lynn services but this fell through many years ago.

Isn't the Chieftain always covered by a Scottish crew north of Edinburgh? Fair enough they work for VTEC rather than Scotrail, but I've never been served by anyone other than a person with a Scottish accent. Often the same man's on the trolley to the extent that I thought they're based in Inverness and just do a there and back to Waverley each day?

 

[gsnedders]

Isn't the Chieftain always covered by a Scottish crew north of Edinburgh? Fair enough they work for VTEC rather than Scotrail, but I've never been served by anyone other than a person with a Scottish accent. Often the same man's on the trolley to the extent that I thought they're based in Inverness and just do a there and back to Waverley each day?

Pretty sure it's just the Edinburgh-based crews that work it, with an overnight out at Inverness.

 

[43096]

Pretty sure it's just the Edinburgh-based crews that work it, with an overnight out at Inverness.

Used to be Newcastle crews.

 

[signallerscot]

Newcastle drivers, Edinburgh guards.