Public perception of railways

[dk1]

I don't think the public perception of railways will ever be that good even if they are very well run. People just don't like public transport in general. Even if our railways were always reliable had affordable tickets and comfortable seats the average person would still not enjoy travlling by train.

There is the moaning about railways which like the jokes and newspaper cartoons that date back to the late 1800s, but in general many people enjoy travelling by train.

 

[Falcon1200]

There is the moaning about railways which like the jokes and newspaper cartoons that date back to the late 1800s, but in general many people enjoy travelling by train.

I agree!

Way back in the 1970s I had a paper round, and one winter weekend train services were disrupted by snowfall. I still recall the headline as I delivered the next day's Sunday Express; 'British Rail gets stuck in the Ice Age'. Media criticism of the railway is nothing new!

I have travelled on far too many delayed trains, I have had my intended train cancelled; But I have also gone for cancelled buses, been delayed waiting flights at airports, and sat on motorways for hours due to accidents and incidents. The railway is held to a higher standard than other forms of transport.

But when things go as planned there is no better way to travel.

 

[Purple Train]

There is the moaning about railways which like the jokes and newspaper cartoons that date back to the late 1800s, but in general many people enjoy travelling by train.

"On Wednesday last, a respectably-dressed young man was seen to go into a London station and deliberately take a ticket to Cambridge. He has not been heard from since." -  Punch, 1860s

I have travelled on far too many delayed trains, I have had my intended train cancelled; But I have also gone for cancelled buses, been delayed waiting flights at airports, and sat on motorways for hours due to accidents and incidents. The railway is held to a higher standard than other forms of transport.

But when things go as planned there is no better way to travel.

Well said.

As with near enough everything in life, it's a two-way street. The fares system isn't necessarily complicated per se, but it isn't consistent - evening peak restrictions are my favourite example to use to illustrate this, plus, of course, the ludicrous LNER "trial". However, the people who complain about fares being too expensive aren't often in possession of all the required information: for instance, I recently fell into conversation with someone who has exactly the same commute as I do, who was in something of a pickle because the journey was setting him back over £50 a month, and was rather unhappy about "how expensive the railway is". 15 minutes later, all was sweetness and light again after a brief introduction to the concepts of a railcard and a season ticket.

I would venture to suggest that, if not a majority, at least a sizeable minority of people complaining about how expensive the railway is don't know how to find the cheapest fare they can get. Whether that is the railway's problem or the individual's problem probably depends on the exact situation. However, that isn't to say that fares aren't too high - I think they are, although choosing between wanting lower fares and lower overcrowding is difficult! - just that the public image is that they are astronomically high, and I think often the people who complain as such are taking a simple "headline" figure (e.g. the £369 Manchester-London ticket).

To put it differently, and succinctly: the railway has a distinct PR problem. See HS2.

 

[12LDA28C]

I have travelled on far too many delayed trains, I have had my intended train cancelled; But I have also gone for cancelled buses, been delayed waiting flights at airports, and sat on motorways for hours due to accidents and incidents. The railway is held to a higher standard than other forms of transport.

Indeed. I recently had a flight delayed by 5 hours. There was no apology from any airport or airline staff and not even an explanation or reason given for the delay. It seems flight passengers are just expected to accept it without complaint, and yet rail passengers are up in arms if their train is an hour late.

"On Wednesday last, a respectably-dressed young man was seen to go into a London station and deliberately take a ticket to Cambridge. He has not been heard from since." -  Punch, 1860s

Well said.

As with near enough everything in life, it's a two-way street. The fares system isn't necessarily complicated per se, but it isn't consistent - evening peak restrictions are my favourite example to use to illustrate this, plus, of course, the ludicrous LNER "trial". However, the people who complain about fares being too expensive aren't often in possession of all the required information: for instance, I recently fell into conversation with someone who has exactly the same commute as I do, who was in something of a pickle because the journey was setting him back over £50 a month, and was rather unhappy about "how expensive the railway is". 15 minutes later, all was sweetness and light again after a brief introduction to the concepts of a railcard and a season ticket.

I would venture to suggest that, if not a majority, at least a sizeable minority of people complaining about how expensive the railway is don't know how to find the cheapest fare they can get. Whether that is the railway's problem or the individual's problem probably depends on the exact situation. However, that isn't to say that fares aren't too high - I think they are, although choosing between wanting lower fares and lower overcrowding is difficult! - just that the public image is that they are astronomically high, and I think often the people who complain as such are taking a simple "headline" figure (e.g. the £369 Manchester-London ticket).

To put it differently, and succinctly: the railway has a distinct PR problem. See HS2.

I'd be interested to learn where you can commute from and to for £50 a month!

 

[Purple Train]

I'd be interested to learn where you can commute from and to for £50 a month!

Indeed, I've just realised that the figure would be around £100 for what the person in question said they were doing, i.e. just buying a return every day and leaving it at that. My memory is insistent that they said £50, but the rest of me is equally insistent that I misremembered. Sorry!

I think my point stands, though - there is a fine balance between the railway providing effective information on how to get the best possible fare for your intended journey, and people finding it out themselves.

 

[J-2739]

I think that it's more that moaning is a national pastime. As the service improves people's expectations change with it. Do Swiss people never moan? I doubt it.

The Dutch in particular love a good moan about their own railways.

 

[Krokodil]

at least a sizeable minority of people complaining about how expensive the railway is don't know how to find the cheapest fare they can get.

People should be able to walk into a station with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process.

and I think often the people who complain as such are taking a simple "headline" figure (e.g. the £369 Manchester-London ticket).

Ridiculously priced fares are an easy target for the gutter press. The railway shouldn't give them such an open goal.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. I recently had a flight delayed by 5 hours. There was no apology from any airport or airline staff and not even an explanation or reason given for the delay. It seems flight passengers are just expected to accept it without complaint, and yet rail passengers are up in arms if their train is an hour late.

That's perhaps not such a good example.

If an aircraft is five hours late they have to reimburse you for expenses such as subsistence, if your aircraft is cancelled or delayed overnight and you're stranded overnight they have to pay for your hotel. That's even if it isn't the airline's fault. If it IS the airline's fault then they also have to give you at least £220 compensation for the inconvenience.

If a train is five hours late? Nothing. You may get Delay Repay but that depends on the TOC- not all TOCs are subject to Delay Repay.

I would venture to suggest that, if not a majority, at least a sizeable minority of people complaining about how expensive the railway is don't know how to find the cheapest fare they can get.

And that's because the railway doesn't want them to find out.

LNER are the poster child for this. On LNER's website, the only ticket available from London to Newcastle on every single train today is the Anytime single at £195. But you can buy a Super Off-Peak single from London to [station somewhere near Newcastle] - valid on many of the same trains- for £84.

 

[Krokodil]

If a train is five hours late? Nothing. You may get Delay Repay but that depends on the TOC- not all TOCs are subject to Delay Repay.

If stranded overnight you'd still be entitled to a hotel and food, just as you would with an airline.

 

[12LDA28C]

That's perhaps not such a good example.

If an aircraft is five hours late they have to reimburse you for expenses such as subsistence, if your aircraft is cancelled or delayed overnight and you're stranded overnight they have to pay for your hotel. That's even if it isn't the airline's fault. If it IS the airline's fault then they also have to give you at least £220 compensation for the inconvenience.

If a train is five hours late? Nothing. You may get Delay Repay but that depends on the TOC- not all TOCs are subject to Delay Repay.


And that's because the railway doesn't want them to find out.

LNER are the poster child for this. On LNER's website, the only ticket available from London to Newcastle on every single train today is the Anytime single at £195. But you can buy a Super Off-Peak single from London to [station somewhere near Newcastle] - valid on many of the same trains- for £84.

'They have to'? Possibly for overnight accommodation but as far as compensation goes you have to follow a process and apply for compensation, it is not automatically given. If you don't apply, you will receive nothing. And does that mean they shouldn't apologise or let flight passengers know the reason for the delay?

 

[Purple Train]

And that's because the railway doesn't want them to find out.

LNER are the poster child for this. On LNER's website, the only ticket available from London to Newcastle on every single train today is the Anytime single at £195. But you can buy a Super Off-Peak single from London to [station somewhere near Newcastle] - valid on many of the same trains- for £84.

That's very true. I do forget how terrible the websites are (I don't use them at all).

People should be able to walk into a station with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process.

Absolutely, and, in my opinion, exactly why ticket offices ought to be more widespread.

 

[Tetchytyke]

'They have to'? Possibly for overnight accommodation but as far as compensation goes you have to follow a process and apply for compensation, it is not automatically given. If you don't apply, you will receive nothing.

The law is clear relating to airlines' responsibilities. The airline are the ones who must provide subsistence and accommodation and the airlines are the ones who must facilitate the right to re-routing or the right to refund.

In reality, during major disruption you need to arrange your own stuff and reclaim the cost from them later. But the legal requirement is on the airline.

Subsistence costs are automatically given by most airlines; EasyJet add it to your boarding pass. The amount they add is £3- which is really only in borderline compliance with the law- but I've not had issue in claiming reimbursement for more.

Yes, you will have to request compensation, but that's no different to Delay Repay.

And does that mean they shouldn't apologise or let flight passengers know the reason for the delay?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never had no explanation for a delay of that length. I may hold a healthy scepticism about the reason given- "ATC restrictions" as an example- but they have given a reason.

And I'm yet to see anything from the airlines as bad as "this train was cancelled due to a short-notice change in the timetable".

That's very true. I do forget how terrible the websites are (I don't use them at all).

Recent comments on the LNER thread suggest that LNER's ticket office staff will be actively obstructive if you attempt to buy London to [station near Newcastle] tickets.

 

[Purple Train]

Recent comments on the LNER thread suggest that LNER's ticket office staff will be actively obstructive if you attempt to buy London to [station near Newcastle] tickets.

I wish I could say I was surprised, given LNER's track record. Does that apply to those who buy tickets from other LNER stations as well, out of interest?

Elsewhere, however, I have found staff to be far more helpful than websites, although this is of course only anecdotal.

 

[Dr Hoo]

People should be able to walk into a station with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process.


Ridiculously priced fares are an easy target for the gutter press. The railway shouldn't give them such an open goal.

But unfortunately, for some people their first ever (or first for a long time) experience is when they get a phone call to advise that a dear relative has been taken ill some distance away or their car has broken down at their destination a long way from home.
The ‘distressed’ customer with no Trainline account or whatever walks into the Euston booking office all flustered and says, “I need to get to Manchester as soon as possible and I’m not sure when I’ll be coming back.” “Certainly, Sir/Madam, that will be £369 please. There’s a train leaving in 7 minutes.”

 

[Broucek]

Indeed. I recently had a flight delayed by 5 hours. There was no apology from any airport or airline staff and not even an explanation or reason given for the delay. It seems flight passengers are just expected to accept it without complaint, and yet rail passengers are up in arms if their train is an hour late.

Yes, airlines can be pretty terrible. But there are some fundamental differences

1. Whilst killing time at an airport is not delightful, it's indoor, heated/cooled and has lots of places to eat, drink and use the loo. You will often be given a (small) food voucher when delayed
2. For a UK or EU airline, there are mandatory compensation tarrifs for delays (other than force majeur) and these can be significant. My wife and I recently had c. £500 EACH when our flghts back from the US were 5 hours late
3. The nature of leisure travel is different. When travelling by air, being 5 hours late for a week's holiday is irritating but (generally) manageable. But even a two hour delay when taking a train to a meeting/concert/wedding/whatever might mean missing some or all of it

 

[Master29]

I don't think the public perception of railways will ever be that good even if they are very well run. People just don't like public transport in general. Even if our railways were always reliable had affordable tickets and comfortable seats the average person would still not enjoy travlling by train.

I think this has been driven into the British psyche for years. It's a type of Americanisation effect whereby the perception of public transport has always been uncool. Europe and the far east a completely different ballgame. Bad press as well doesn't help.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the perception of public transport has always been uncool. Europe and the far east a completely different ballgame

I don't think the railways are seen as 'uncool' any more than any other form of transport. There's nothing 'cool' about Ryanair. There's nothing 'cool' about the M25.

The reputation is about competence. The railway's reputation in Germany is pretty much rock bottom for the same reason its reputation in GB is pretty much rock bottom: incompetence.

 

[Master29]

Is this thread about to turn into the "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch?

Not if you live in LNER land. Your trains have buffets. Pity the sufferings of us poor South Westerners...Oh, to have a soggy, freshly made bedwetting sheet ham sarnie from the buffet. I lay awake at night dreaming of such luxury......(Michael Palin)

 

[TUC]

People should be able to walk into a station with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process.

They should, but for large numbers of people these days it is far more relevant to say 'People should be able to go onto a ticket-selling webiste with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process'


Who would turn up at a station without knowing how much the journey will cost you?

Indeed. I recently had a flight delayed by 5 hours. There was no apology from any airport or airline staff and not even an explanation or reason given for the delay. It seems flight passengers are just expected to accept it without complaint, and yet rail passengers are up in arms if their train is an hour late.

Whereas surely both should be up in arms?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Eh? Loads of non-rail enthusiasts use ticket splitting websites that work it all out for them. When I'm travelling and there's a ticket check, split tickets are very common (I can tell because the "non-enthusiasts" typically have to be prompted to scroll to the correct one of the multiple tickets, and the guard often asks for and scans the other split tickets which apply to the current service). There are many ticket splitting sites, all apparently making a profit from this.

I'd expect the actual enthusiasts would probably work out the splits themselves and buy the tickets individually to avoid paying the ticket splitting site's commission that they charge on the savings.

Well yes, if someone's definitely going to be making a journey then they'll probably visit a split ticket site but if they're casually wondering where to go for a weekend away they might check National Rail or the Trainline, be offered only the full open return fare and decide it's too expensive.

Also some people may be nervous about using split tickets as they can have additional restrictions that you may not know about if you're unfamiliar with an area. For example, how many people outside Yorkshire know that off peak day returns on Northern have evening peak restrictions as well as morning ones?

 

[Indigo Soup]

For example, how many people outside Yorkshire know that off peak day returns on Northern have evening peak restrictions as well as morning ones?

I would assume an off peak ticket was restricted in both the morning and evening peaks, and might well wind up buying an Anytime I didn't need to in some areas - it's probably happened already!

 

[jfollows]

I would assume an off peak ticket was restricted in both the morning and evening peaks, and might well wind up buying an Anytime I didn't need to in some areas - it's probably happened already!

I think anyone over a certain age might assume the opposite - that off-peak tickets are valid after, say, 09:30 but valid to return at any time.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think the public perception of railways will ever be that good even if they are very well run. People just don't like public transport in general. Even if our railways were always reliable had affordable tickets and comfortable seats the average person would still not enjoy travlling by train.

So how come I enjoy travelling by train in Switzerland, Austria etc?. It's not just their scenery, it's the obvious high standards of the operation.

 

[Indigo Soup]

So how come I enjoy travelling by train in Switzerland, Austria etc?. It's not just their scenery, it's the obvious high standards of the operation.

One tends to be in a different frame of mind when on holiday, and using different parts of the rail network at different times. I'm sure that an Austrian or a Swiss trying to get to work on a miserable October morning has plenty of complaints about their rail network!

 

[Dr Hoo]

They should, but for large numbers of people these days it is far more relevant to say 'People should be able to go onto a ticket-selling webiste with no prior knowledge, buy a ticket to their destination and not be fleeced in the process'


Who would turn up at a station without knowing how much the journey will cost you?

This sort of thinking skirts round a major problem in relation to perception of railways. To explain my point, think about me and flying. To be quite clear, I am not a frequent flier - my last trip by air was to Prague for a weekend in 2017 and someone else bought the tickets.

Previously I had been to High Street travel agents, generally Thomas Cook because it had a branch locally, who had looked after 'everything' that was alien to me - flights, transfers, hotel and currency. For all I know they were ripping me off but it was all very simple with one bill to pay.

Previously, work flights had been organised by my employer's travel agent.

Back in the 1980s I worked in London and knew that you had to walk into the British Airways, Air Canada or whatever office and book a ticket many weeks in advance. I have even done walk-up tickets at an airport for very local flights between Scottish islands back then.

So if I wanted to or 'had to' fly to somewhere right now I wouldn't have a clue what to do. My perception of air travel (backed up by a high proportion of nightmare journeys and experiences over the decades) is that it is utterly vile. I will be lured on by apparently cheap but inflexible fares, discover that I can only take minimal luggage, will have to get the the airport at least three hours before a flight at an excruciatingly unattractive time (so probably an overnight stay near the airport), spend ages dragging through security and have to turn out my luggage because there's a metal bookmark in it or something, invariably fail automatic passport checks because I don't seem to bear any resemblance to my photo, will wait hours for a delayed take-off, be wedged in the middle of a row between two overweight strangers, arrive at at a strange airport in the middle of nowhere at another unsociable hour only to find hoards of rip-off and scamming taxi touts wanting to take me to my destination. And that assuming that there aren't further massive queues and delays at immigration and baggage reclaim.

That is my perception. But oddly people that I know actually seem to enjoy and look forward to travelling on holiday by air. Beats me!


And 'No' I wouldn't know how much the journey would cost in advance (beyond the fact that it wouldn't be anything like the same as the 'flash' in a newspaper ad or on a billboard).

 

[Bartsimho]

In the car earlier this week, we had Free Radio on, the DJ made a comment about train travel abroad, this followed by a comment that there hasn't been a train turn up on time in the UK for 3 years...

Obviously it was only an off the cuff, humorous comment, but I think this gives a good idea of the perception people have about the railways.

That DJ has clearly never travelled on a DB ICE. They make Avanti look reliable.

The Euros really challenged those who vaunt European rail systems as DB continued to mess up in front of very vocal football fans.


So as I've said above and others have reiterated. Fares a quite expensive and probably worse incredibly confusing particularly around routing. The fact that the best way is either trying to look through the official routing maps which is confusing by itself with no helpful guide at all or navigating the Pink or Yellow pages. Like it shouldn't be difficult to now dynamically work out from this data and show the user valid routes if they are buying online/through an app or printing on tickets the via information to reduce confusion

 

[Broucek]

So how come I enjoy travelling by train in Switzerland, Austria etc?. It's not just their scenery, it's the obvious high standards of the operation.

Agreed Swiss Railways are staggeringly well run. Punctuality, reliability and customer service are all fantastic. And for me, that's not based on a holiday experience, it's business travel

 

[Meerkat]

If that's what's needed, then so be it.

Maybe taxpayers don’t want to fund a minorities travels.

Watching question time tonight someone mentioned how foreign state owned operators are owning our railways and keeping the profits for themselves.

That seems to be a myth that persists.

Didn’t the Dutch bail because in fact their taxpayers were subsidising our railway?

Another reason for a poor perception of rail travel is that cars have got much better. Quieter, more comfortable, access to unlimited music and podcasts, excellent HVAC, hands free phone calls etc etc.
Also petrol stations are much better with lots of food/drink options and service stations have a variety of well known brands to choose from.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe taxpayers don’t want to fund a minorities travels.

Didn’t the Dutch bail because in fact their taxpayers were subsidising our railway?

Another reason for a poor perception of rail travel is that cars have got much better. Quieter, more comfortable, access to unlimited music and podcasts, excellent HVAC, hands free phone calls etc etc.
Also petrol stations are much better with lots of food/drink options and service stations have a variety of well known brands to choose from.

Rail travellers aren't a minority.

 

[12LDA28C]

Maybe taxpayers don’t want to fund a minorities travels.

I'm sure taxpayers fund plenty of services that they don't use themselves. I've been in hospital once in the last ten years - should I feel aggrieved at my taxes and NI funding the NHS?