Public perception of railways

[Meerkat]

That's as maybe, but with the travelling public it's all about the fares. The public have never been interested in "simplification" except as a means to finding decent value fares.

Then instead of indulging their misconceptions it should have been explained that the complication gives cheaper fares, and simplification makes many of them more expensive, unless they are expecting the taxpayer to cough up even vaster sums to subsidise their travel.

 

[Robertj21a]

it is a simplification from a non expert point of view. LNER have delivered the requested simplification. You search on LNER for tickets and get three options that look simple to understand. I KNOW you don't agree but customers seem happy with the clarity ( if not, perhaps, the price!) perhaps because the perception ( erroneous?) previously was that fares were "complicated"

( based on talking to people I know who are not regular train users - none of them have said "god that LNER stuff is confusing" - I accept that is entirely anecdotal btw)


There is clearly a poor perception issue with railways and areas ripe for improvement. Despite that and the high fares many trains are still full. People are still choosing to travel by train when they could drive. Why are they doing that?

They are doing that because a good many can't drive, many will use the train just for the longer trips, and most trains aren't that busy out of peak commuting times.

 

[yorksrob]

Then instead of indulging their misconceptions it should have been explained that the complication gives cheaper fares, and simplification makes many of them more expensive, unless they are expecting the taxpayer to cough up even vaster sums to subsidise their travel.

Or we should develop a sensible fares system as other countries in Europe seem to manage, instead of our hideously over commercialised mess.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or we should develop a sensible fares system as other countries in Europe seem to manage, instead of our hideously over commercialised mess.

And we are regularly (if somewhat vaguely) informed that ‘other countries support their railways/public transport much more than the UK’, presumably through a greater contribution from The Taxpayer.

 

[Broucek]

That's as maybe, but with the travelling public it's all about the fares. The public have never been interested in "simplification" except as a means to finding decent value fares.

It's both, surely?

 

[yorksrob]

And we are regularly (if somewhat vaguely) informed that ‘other countries support their railways/public transport much more than the UK’, presumably through a greater contribution from The Taxpayer.

If that's what's needed, then so be it. That said, there are improvements that could be made where it's unclear whether taxpayer contribution would be greatly increased, such as off-peak fridays, national railcard etc.

It's both, surely?

Clearly not where fare raising exercises are being undertaken in the name of simplification.

 

[DarloRich]

and most trains aren't that busy out of peak commuting times.

I find it harder to get a seat on Saturday or Sunday than a Tuesday!

If that's what's needed, then so be it.

We wont have that desired change anytime soon, regardless of whether we should!

That said, there are improvements that could be made where it's unclear whether taxpayer contribution would be greatly increased, such as off-peak fridays, national railcard etc.

agreed - I think things like this could be tried regardless of funding stream! This is what GBR should (SHOULD) be able to do as "controlling mind" ( the problem as always is not the mind but the hand!)

 

[duffield]

Well yes. The likes of you and I have worked out you can save around £25 on that fare by splitting at Peterborough but the chances are most non-rail enthusiasts would go no further than thinking "No, that's way too much, I'll drive instead".

Eh? Loads of non-rail enthusiasts use ticket splitting websites that work it all out for them. When I'm travelling and there's a ticket check, split tickets are very common (I can tell because the "non-enthusiasts" typically have to be prompted to scroll to the correct one of the multiple tickets, and the guard often asks for and scans the other split tickets which apply to the current service). There are many ticket splitting sites, all apparently making a profit from this.

I'd expect the actual enthusiasts would probably work out the splits themselves and buy the tickets individually to avoid paying the ticket splitting site's commission that they charge on the savings.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The likes of you and I have worked out you can save around £25 on that fare by splitting at Peterborough but the chances are most non-rail enthusiasts would go no further than thinking "No, that's way too much, I'll drive instead".

The issue tends now to be the other way around. Trainline and the likes will pretty much automatically offer split tickets and passengers then come unstuck when they don't understand that this is what they have been sold.

 

[Indigo Soup]

And we are regularly (if somewhat vaguely) informed that ‘other countries support their railways/public transport much more than the UK’, presumably through a greater contribution from The Taxpayer.

There is certainly a perception in some quarters that Their Taxpayers are willing to subsidise the railways, which are therefore Nice, while Our Taxpayers flogged the railways off for profit, thereby making them Nasty. This view is incorrect in a number of ways, but is correct in others, and makes for a simple narrative.

It's both, surely?

The average would-be rail traveller is wary of complexity because they have a perception that they'll find themselves with a ticket they can't use for the journey they intend to make.

Advance tickets are easy to understand, because they work like airline tickets. You sit in this seat on that train, and no other, and all is well with the world. For a lot of passengers, that's great... provided that they're able to get on the booked train.

Anytime tickets are easy to understand, because you can use them on any train, and don't need to worry about restrictions. Unless you do, thanks to recent events which won't be helping the perception of complexity. Off Peak is confusing, since the times are wildly inconsistent by route and operator; Super Off Peak is even worse.

The issue tends now to be the other way around. Trainline and the likes will pretty much automatically offer split tickets and passengers then come unstuck when they don't understand that this is what they have been sold.

The fact that ticket splitting works clearly isn't a sign of simplicity. And when they do come unstuck, through no fault of their own, the perception will be that the rail industry has sold them a complicated ticket that they can't use, rather than a simple one that they can.

Yes, you and I know it's cheaper because of that complexity. But the average punter sees a ticket from A to B for £20, and one from B to C for £30, all on the same train, and reasonably concludes that £50 is the amount of money the railway wants for that journey.

 

[yorksrob]

There is certainly a perception in some quarters that Their Taxpayers are willing to subsidise the railways, which are therefore Nice, while Our Taxpayers flogged the railways off for profit, thereby making them Nasty. This view is incorrect in a number of ways, but is correct in others, and makes for a simple narrative.

The average would-be rail traveller is wary of complexity because they have a perception that they'll find themselves with a ticket they can't use for the journey they intend to make.

Advance tickets are easy to understand, because they work like airline tickets. You sit in this seat on that train, and no other, and all is well with the world. For a lot of passengers, that's great... provided that they're able to get on the booked train.

Anytime tickets are easy to understand, because you can use them on any train, and don't need to worry about restrictions. Unless you do, thanks to recent events which won't be helping the perception of complexity. Off Peak is confusing, since the times are wildly inconsistent by route and operator; Super Off Peak is even worse.

It's not just a perception though. Many continental railways simply have better value products.

On the subject of off-peak, I disagree that it's inherently confusing. Saturday and Sunday are wholly off-peak, which is about as simple as you get. Weekdays, if you hop on after ten it's more or less guaranteed off peak.

Off-peak times need to be simplified though. Ditch the evening peak for starters, then harmonise off peak times into and out of the cities as far as possible. It won't be perfect, but will be a lot simpler than the flex fare concept.

 

[Russel]

In the car earlier this week, we had Free Radio on, the DJ made a comment about train travel abroad, this followed by a comment that there hasn't been a train turn up on time in the UK for 3 years...

Obviously it was only an off the cuff, humorous comment, but I think this gives a good idea of the perception people have about the railways.

 

[Worcestershed]

People just want a good service for a good price, if you buy a season ticket and arrive at work late most days that's not good for business and gets the railways a poor reputation. I'm just glad I don't have to travel on a daily basis as WMT's have a real issue with delays and cancellations on the Hereford to Birmingham route.

 

[dk1]

Obviously it was only an off the cuff, humorous comment, but I think this gives a good idea of the perception people have about the railways.

Comededians said that about BR curled up sandwiches in the 1970s but they sold very well indeed and I for one absolutely loved them.

 

[Russel]

Comededians said that about BR curled up sandwiches in the 1970s but they sold very well indeed and I for one absolutely loved them.

I used to enjoy the burgers available on the HST's back in BR days!

Microwave rubbish but they tasted pretty good!

 

[43096]

I know you wont agree on this so I wont press further but I maintain that simplification does not mean cheaper.

They are actually different things, but they can (conveniently!) be done at the same time. At best simplification is going to be overall revenue neutral but within that there will be ups and downs on prices. However, this is the railway industry, so you can bet that it will be used as a sneaky way to increase prices without anyone being able to make a direct comparison with the old system.

 

[dk1]

I used to enjoy the burgers available on the HST's back in BR days!

Microwave rubbish but they tasted pretty good!

Oh they were superb as where the INTERCITY ones of 1990s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Oh they were superb as where the INTERCITY ones of 1990s.

I remember going to the buffet car in the 1970s and having a ham sandwich made freshly by the buffet staff. Of course, the ham was like rubber and the bread like cotton wool.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but Andy Burnham is on Twitter saying he's very unhappy with Northern in reply to someone suffering repeated cancellations.

x.com

twitter.com

I appear to be unable to 'quote' the text that Andy Burnham is going to convene a meeting of the 'Rail North Committee' (or whatever it's called). And we've been advised that the DfT issued Northern with a 'Breach Notice' back in July, since when things seem to have got worse, certainly on my local Hope Valley Line. It is also supposed to be the case that Northern is somehow 'controlled'/owned by Directly Operated Railways/DOHL. I apologise for having completely lost the plot on how 'governance' of Northern is actually undertaken these days.

I feel that many of the public in 'the North' just perceive that their local railway is totally unaccountable, let alone un-reliable and often crowded.

 

[Master29]

I remember going to the buffet car in the 1970s and having a ham sandwich made freshly by the buffet staff. Of course, the ham was like rubber and the bread like cotton wool.

At least there WAS a buffet in those days...Talking GWR here of course.

 

[12LDA28C]

Oh they were superb as where the INTERCITY ones of 1990s.

I recall the 'French Bread Pizza' the buffets used to sell which were very hot and very tasty. Washed down with a can of cold Sapporo lager, lovely.

 

[dk1]

I recall the 'French Bread Pizza' the buffets used to sell which were very hot and very tasty. Washed down with a can of cold Sapporo lager, lovely.

Those were the days.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I recall the 'French Bread Pizza' the buffets used to sell which were very hot and very tasty. Washed down with a can of cold Sapporo lager, lovely.

Is this thread about to turn into the "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch?

 

[GordonT]

I recall the 'French Bread Pizza' the buffets used to sell which were very hot and very tasty. Washed down with a can of cold Sapporo lager, lovely.

I also vaguely recall bacon in a soft white roll together with molten tomato.

 

[ic31420]

brfares.com is your friend in terms of providing information on restrictions on walk-up tickets (and also showing the full range of tickets).

I think that site demonstrates the complexities of the fare system it seems I can get from A - B and back again for anything from £19.10 to £110 with an option of a 10p ticket that's probably not available.

I just asked my missus to go to that site and choose a ticket for our next trip and after 60seconds she said "why does it have to be so hard? Don't they all just get you there?"

Have you considered giving our site a try?

If you select "open return" on our site, you can be absolutely certain that the only tickets offered will not be restricted to a specific train, and you can easily see the relevant restrictions:
View attachment 167809

I did consider it, but convenience of Trainline app won out with a young child jumping up at me.

With the "open return" thing and having to select the outbound train I formed the view it was just the return train was open(choice). Though I accept that may be influenced by Trainline's GUI

Sadly we don't do integrated transport in the UK, but this problem is a much wider issue than the rail industry itself; as for ticket acceptance when cancellations occur, we could change this to be automatic at a stroke, but the decision has been taken not to do this, which is absolutely criminal.

In terms of train companies and some of their employees; you are spot on and indeed such statistics will be trotted out to justify poor service, on the basis that the trains most people want to travel on, will be busy regardless. It's an argument that neither 'side' will ever back down on!

It's a real challenge. It seems we are making it harder and not easier.

There is clearly a poor perception issue with railways and areas ripe for improvement. Despite that and the high fares many trains are still full. People are still choosing to travel by train when they could drive. Why are they doing that?

Anecdotal I know but my recent trip, the chaps on the pub crawl were using the train due to the pub crawl incompatibility with driving, the two young wannabe plastic. gangstas because they were students (as were others) who clearly couldn't afford car ownership, another couple I chatted to because they lived in Manchester city centre and were carless. We left the car at home foregoing the convenience and time saving for the experience of going by train and not having to find parking.

My train ridership has fallen, I used to keep records, in 1998 I made 172 trips (return counts as 2) in 1999 154 in 2000 - 2005 around 80 (working so less time) the last 8years I've averaged 12 with 2022 an outlier at 50 when I was working at an office beside a station and hopping on the train with the bike in grim weather was tempting

Interesting to see a spoof advert in the previous issue of "Private Eye" for "Euston Station Rocket Roller Skates" Price £399.23.

Are you a regular user of one of Britain's biggest railway stations?
Worried about not getting to your train in the 30 seconds between the platform being announced and departure?
The "Euston Rocket Roller Skates" will zoom you to your platform in just 9.4 seconds and will blast anyone in your path out of the way!

Then railway is riddled with lots of things that seem just to make life hard or less pleasant for passengers. For decades you could turn up at Piccadilly and wait on the trainshed platforms, if the train had arrived and you could get on ahead of departure time and get comfy or just wait away from the concourse. Now like at Euston they seem to want to keep everyone in the busy hectic concourse until a few mins before departure.

I was bellowed at for having my little finger over the yellow line as a service departed at Doncaster as I moved out of the way of a cleaning trolly and held my little lads hand.

It just all adds up to make people feel that passengers just get in the way of the railway running for its own convenience.

 

[Bald Rick]

I looked at fares to Selby from Doncaster and quickly got confused. The reason I checked was that I was considering going to a model railway open day, but trying to work out what was valid on which route proved to be headache inducing. In the end, I decided that I would be going to the model railway open day in Sheffield instead, as I can simply load my smart card with a 1 day bus, tram and train ticket quickly and easily.

If I, with the benefit of some knowledge and the resources of this forum struggle with what should be a straightforward journey, what hope does anyone who isn't clued up have?

The link shows all the ticket options for Doncaster to Selby.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

I often think that I am perhaps a bit unusual… but I rarely lookup fares (not needing to, sorry) and have never been to the BRFares website until just now. I do know my anytimes from off peak, and understand siml, erouteing restrictions.

But I had one quick look at this link, and in about 5 seconds picked the off peak day return (routed not via Leeds or York) as the obvious ticket. It wasn’t confusing at all, for me, as someone who knows a it about the railway, but little about fares.

 

[thenorthern]

Watching question time tonight someone mentioned how foreign state owned operators are owning our railways and keeping the profits for themselves.

That seems to be a myth that persists. 5-10 years ago that was probably the case but now only C2C I think is fully state owned by another country. The other cases it's either not fully owned by another country.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is certainly a perception in some quarters that Their Taxpayers are willing to subsidise the railways, which are therefore Nice, while Our Taxpayers flogged the railways off for profit, thereby making them Nasty. This view is incorrect in a number of ways, but is correct in others, and makes for a simple narrative.

The average would-be rail traveller is wary of complexity because they have a perception that they'll find themselves with a ticket they can't use for the journey they intend to make.

Advance tickets are easy to understand, because they work like airline tickets. You sit in this seat on that train, and no other, and all is well with the world. For a lot of passengers, that's great... provided that they're able to get on the booked train.

Anytime tickets are easy to understand, because you can use them on any train, and don't need to worry about restrictions. Unless you do, thanks to recent events which won't be helping the perception of complexity. Off Peak is confusing, since the times are wildly inconsistent by route and operator; Super Off Peak is even worse.

The fact that ticket splitting works clearly isn't a sign of simplicity. And when they do come unstuck, through no fault of their own, the perception will be that the rail industry has sold them a complicated ticket that they can't use, rather than a simple one that they can.

Yes, you and I know it's cheaper because of that complexity. But the average punter sees a ticket from A to B for £20, and one from B to C for £30, all on the same train, and reasonably concludes that £50 is the amount of money the railway wants for that journey.

Super Off peak. I never remember if that is cheaper or more expensive than off peak.

The afternoon peak is something I hope I do not need to worry about.

In the car earlier this week, we had Free Radio on, the DJ made a comment about train travel abroad, this followed by a comment that there hasn't been a train turn up on time in the UK for 3 years...

Obviously it was only an off the cuff, humorous comment, but I think this gives a good idea of the perception people have about the railways.

This makes me think - are we heading back to the grubby steam era post war run down railways era ?.

People just want a good service for a good price, if you buy a season ticket and arrive at work late most days that's not good for business and gets the railways a poor reputation. I'm just glad I don't have to travel on a daily basis as WMT's have a real issue with delays and cancellations on the Hereford to Birmingham route.

I ended up taking a pay cut so I did not have to commute. Pay a fortune for your time to be wasted on inconvenience, no seat and stress - best career move I made.

Comededians said that about BR curled up sandwiches in the 1970s but they sold very well indeed and I for one absolutely loved them.

I might be wrong but istr the cheese sandwich was the most popular because there was no alternative !.

I certainly remembering ignoring railway food until sometime in the late 80s / early 90s the female catering expert whos name escapes me joined the BR board and introduced some very nice sandwiches.

 

[778]

I don't think the public perception of railways will ever be that good even if they are very well run. People just don't like public transport in general. Even if our railways were always reliable had affordable tickets and comfortable seats the average person would still not enjoy travlling by train.

 

[Krokodil]

That's as maybe, but with the travelling public it's all about the fares. The public have never been interested in "simplification" except as a means to finding decent value fares.

And because they get stung when they get it wrong.

I do get your underlying point though: the ultimate simplification would be to abolish everything bar the Anytime ticket, but I'm not sure many of us would want that.

Quite happy to only have Anytime Any Permitted tickets...

... Provided that the price is actually reasonable.

Clearly not where fare raising exercises are being undertaken in the name of simplification.

That was just blatant dishonesty on the part of LNER and their political puppeteers.

The issue tends now to be the other way around. Trainline and the likes will pretty much automatically offer split tickets and passengers then come unstuck when they don't understand that this is what they have been sold.

Oh god yes. I had a passenger arguing about the ticket price with me:
"But Trainline says it's this..."
"You are travelling back tomorrow, aren’t you?"
"Yes"
"Well Trainline have split that ticket into two and the second half is a Day Return"
"I don't care, I want that one"
"Fine, if you insist. On your head be it..."

Advance tickets are easy to understand

You'd think so. But the number of times when I end up asking passengers why they're not on their booked train and the answer isn't a missed connection or something else understandable. Commonly it's "I thought that you could use this at any time."

In the car earlier this week, we had Free Radio on, the DJ made a comment about train travel abroad, this followed by a comment that there hasn't been a train turn up on time in the UK for 3 years...

Obviously it was only an off the cuff, humorous comment, but I think this gives a good idea of the perception people have about the railways.

That DJ has clearly never travelled on a DB ICE. They make Avanti look reliable.

I don't think the public perception of railways will ever be that good even if they are very well run. People just don't like public transport in general. Even if our railways were always reliable had affordable tickets and comfortable seats the average person would still not enjoy travlling by train.

I think that it's more that moaning is a national pastime. As the service improves people's expectations change with it. Do Swiss people never moan? I doubt it.