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Pumpkin cafes closed for good?

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Llanigraham

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I'm thinking about all the small independent food outlets I've seen on my travels and think they should be encouraged:
Lady Foley's at Malvern, and her cakes.
The cafe at Barry Station, does a good bacon sandwich.
The Community Cafe at Llandovery.
The cafe at Abergavenny Station.
The pub at Manningtree.
The cafe on Porthmadog station.
 
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Bald Rick

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£1.69 is a latte so you were probably charged incorrectly.



Well...I didn't believe you so I checked them both on the McD's app, and the city centre one is indeed slightly (but not much) more expensive. For comparison, a McChicken BLT meal is £5.29 at that one but £5.09 at the outer one.

That's a substantial change in policy from the past - I wonder when it changed? Perhaps when they started being in motorway services?

Certsainly 7-8 years ago prices were different between the two drive thru McDs near St Albans. Not sure if they still are.



Essentially a distressed purchase scenario, I get it. But if everyone says that it's all a bit rubbish I would challenge describing it as a great strategy. Great for whom? The traveller?

Great for the funder of the Railways, namely the taxpayers and the passengers. People who seem to be happy to pay the prices charged do so, and that keeps fares and/or taxes lower than they otherwise would be.
 

185143

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I'm thinking about all the small independent food outlets I've seen on my travels and think they should be encouraged:
Lady Foley's at Malvern, and her cakes.
The cafe at Barry Station, does a good bacon sandwich.
The Community Cafe at Llandovery.
The cafe at Abergavenny Station.
The pub at Manningtree.
The cafe on Porthmadog station.
There's a lovely cafe on the Lincoln/Nottingham platform at Worksop too. Had many an excellent breakfast in there.
 

sheff1

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That card was a god send when gave 20% off at the beginning, it made eating at the station comparable to walking 5 minutes outside to a normal outlet! But now its a shower of sh*te I'm not even sure if I should bother carrying the card around any longer!

Thanks for this. You have prompted me to take my Bite card out of my wallet - I used to use it regularly but after the discount was reduced, the prices went up and the quality down I went elsewhere. Doubt if I have used the Bite card in 3 years or more.
 

cactustwirly

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I always find McDonalds coffee beats the lot!

£1.49 for a regular (99p for 'standard' coffee) or £1.69 for a large (although I find they often fail to fill up the large enough to justify the 20p!) plus each 7th cup is free

You can go even further these days as if you buy the coffee on the app you collect virtual stickers for each purchase - 5 of those for a freebie and you'll still have the physical stickers too! So 7 coffees for the price of 5, although I suspect they'll drop the physical stickers at some point in the future due to the dodgy ones flooding a popular online auction site!

No maccies coffee is foul, they use the cheapest beans to give a really acidic taste.
The best coffee comes from a 3rd wave coffee shop, with a proper manual coffee machine.
Sourced Market at St Pancras is my favourite station coffee shop, it's expensive but well worth it.
Failing that I'd go to Pret.
 

sheff1

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The best coffee comes from a 3rd wave coffee shop, with a proper manual coffee machine.
Sourced Market at St Pancras is my favourite station coffee shop, it's expensive but well worth it.
Failing that I'd go to Pret.

3rd wave coffee shop ? New one on me - is that a London thing ?

I used to go to Amt at St Pancras, but the quality went down. Then there was some sort of Italian place on the upper level but that disappeared. Pret is OK but I will try Sourced Market if we are ever allowed to travel again.
 

philthetube

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I'd wish people would stop mentioning Casey Jones as I'm desperately trying not to look up the theme tune and song on You-Tube.
I may yield, oddly enough only on in later life I found out he was a real person.

You can find the programme as well as the tune
Even the "Giardano something" ones at Bletchley and MKC are a fairly small company, I think they only have Bletchley and MKC shops.
One at Watford Junction as well.
 

Mojo

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Well...I didn't believe you so I checked them both on the McD's app, and the city centre one is indeed slightly (but not much) more expensive. For comparison, a McChicken BLT meal is £5.29 at that one but £5.09 at the outer one.

That's a substantial change in policy from the past - I wonder when it changed? Perhaps when they started being in motorway services?
My regular breakfast (Double Sausage and Egg Muffin meal with extra sausage) can vary at any price between £4.19 and £4.79). This is usually because the price of the extra sausage is sometimes as little as 30p but sometimes as high as 70p - average price is 40p. Obviously this doesn’t account for the full price difference but I’d say to have noticed the price difference when I first used a particular branch near my former workplace in 2014.

Also I have previously in Wolverhampton been attempted to be charged a sauce tax which I’ve not had anywhere else.
 

Steve Harris

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Yes it seems their pound saver menu is a fixed price but other items vary. It doesn't always follow that motorway or city centre locations are the most expensive either and these locations take the discount vouchers that are often printed in Metro whereas drive thrus don't.

Mc Donald's franchised restaurants have always been free to set their own prices (it would be illegal for McDonalds to force them to charge the same) but as they used to only made up around 10% of the total they generally fell into line with the company owned ones had a set price nationwide.

Over the last 10 years almost all the restaurants have been franchised so there is not one standard price although where a RRP is advertised nationally it would be bad business to charge more.
I remember watching a programme about McDonalds on TV and it was mentioned that when a franchise is 'Let' McDonalds stipulate certain things in the contract regarding uniforms, signage and pricing. McD's give the franchisee a price range they can charge for each product. If I understood it correctly the franchisee can charge what he wants as long as it is in the stipulated range, if it isn't then the franchisee is breaking the contract and it can be terminated by McD's.

It wouldn't surprise me if McD's is not the only company to use this strategy.
 

AndrewP

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3rd wave coffee shop ? New one on me - is that a London thing ?

I can help on that one - it was an American term that has now spread but makes sense:
  • First wave = diner coffee or café coffee - nothing special and unbranded
  • Second wave = specialist coffee chains e.g. Starbucks or Costa
  • Third wave = specialist gourmet independents
My nomination for good coffee near a station:
  • Monmouth Coffee Company at Borough Market near London Bridge
 

Bald Rick

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My nomination for good coffee near a station:
  • Monmouth Coffee Company at Borough Market near London Bridge

That’s ok. But the best coffee I’ve ever had near a station is Hermanos Colombian at Victoria, the other side of the bus stops.
 
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I'm thinking about all the small independent food outlets I've seen on my travels and think they should be encouraged:
Lady Foley's at Malvern, and her cakes.
The cafe at Barry Station, does a good bacon sandwich.
The Community Cafe at Llandovery.
The cafe at Abergavenny Station.
The pub at Manningtree.
The cafe on Porthmadog station.
I remember the- [Good life] shop at Manchester Victoria, Its closed now but it used to sell Tea and Coffee 60 and 70p. Up until around the early noughties you could buy - Hot pots, Shepherds pie for around one pounds forty.
 

SteveM70

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Gordon Street coffee at Glasgow Central is really good. And they have an offshoot branch in Edinburgh by the exit on the opposite side to Princes Street
 

FQTV

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Much of the above mis-understands how the station retail market works.

At smaller stations, the retail unit(s) is/are either put on the market, and the highest bidder wins (like buying a house), or often it is an enterprising local who suggests something to the station operator and a deal is done.

At larger stations, the units are marketed as above, but they are carefully planned to deliver a mix of retail, otherwise you’d just end up with coffee shops as that is what has the biggest margin (there’s too many tales of ‘coffee barrow’ owners earning 6 figures for this not to be the case). So that’s why you get places like McDonalds, which will pay lower base rents, but attract people to the station where they may use other shops, or even get on a train. Having said that, the McDs at Liverpool St used to be the busiest in the country (Mon-Fri). Not sure if it still is.

And it’s a great strategy; the revenue that NRs managed stations bring in was performing well ahead of the general retail market up until Covid struck.

And whilst people may moan about high prices etc, the fact is that no one is forcing anyone to buy any of it.

The one observation that I’d perhaps additionally make is that the way that some station space is marketed is a little too ‘spreadsheet’, evidenced by the amount that goes unlet for sometimes years and years, if at all.

Some of the rental asking rates are wildly unrealistic, presumably driven by station usage numbers (which as we know are sometimes a bit iffy themselves) rather than any reference to the competitive market for property locally, or indeed the character of the station’s own footfall and circulation.

Glasgow Central had a Mexican Burrito place, was a small local chain but didnt last long and is now a Pret.

The snag with these, in a high traffic, high rent location like this is that a significant proportion of the footfall won’t know anything about the product and will opt for safe, known alternatives. The product is too niche. Conversely, an independent ‘café’ or ‘tearoom’ or ‘pub’ or ‘bar’ can be quite successful thanks to a more generic product that’s familiar to more folks, especially those who are not regular passers-by.

Great for the funder of the Railways, namely the taxpayers and the passengers. People who seem to be happy to pay the prices charged do so, and that keeps fares and/or taxes lower than they otherwise would be.

One thing that I’ve never been sure about is how the income for non Network Rail station rents is accounted-for. Locally, the ‘landlord’ is LNER or Northern, so is property income actually remitted to NR, or is it retained?

If the latter, is it classed as income for the purposes of calculating premia or subsidy? And how does it vary under the current emergency measures?
 

Bald Rick

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One thing that I’ve never been sure about is how the income for non Network Rail station rents is accounted-for. Locally, the ‘landlord’ is LNER or Northern, so is property income actually remitted to NR, or is it retained?

If the latter, is it classed as income for the purposes of calculating premia or subsidy? And how does it vary under the current emergency measures?

It is retained by the operator, and forms part of the financial equation in the bidding process. The bidders will see the income history and lease arrangements of each site as part of the confidential ‘data room’ that is provided to them in the bidding process, along with any confirmed proposed changes to the estate. The bidders will then take a view on how to make a difference to the retail income, perhaps through a different retail strategy, or some station development. Passenger growth helps, obviously. This is then part of the ‘Ancilliary revenue’ line in the bid (along with car park income, advertising, taxi licences, commission on ticket sales for non-TOC flows, and so on).

In terms of emergency measures, it’s all wrapped up in the deals. There’s some interesting stuff going on in that area.

Another interesting point is the ‘buying power’ of NR in station retail. NR will get much, much better deals with the main retailers (WH Smith, SSP, the coffee chains etc), partly because of scale, and partly because with a much larger retail estate it understands the market better. I’m not going to give numbers here, but when stations transfer to NR from a TOC the income change at lease expiry can be quite significant with no obvious change to the customer experience. Clearly NR isn’t so good (nor interested) in small scale retail at smaller stations, and this is best left to the TOCs.
 

gallafent

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The snag with these, in a high traffic, high rent location like this is that a significant proportion of the footfall won’t know anything about the product and will opt for safe, known alternatives.
Yeah, I think that's what happened to the independent Chinese food outlet in Oxford station this year. It was nice, made a nice change from the usual, from my perspective.

Until tourism (and foreign students) from China dried up this year it had had enough footfall that did know about its product (noodles, dumplings, buns, various dishes, …) and didn't know much about the stuff available at the other more standard UK outlets in the station. It's now a Coca-Costa.
 

ChrisC

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There's a lovely cafe on the Lincoln/Nottingham platform at Worksop too. Had many an excellent breakfast in there.

It is really good and the new people running it these last few years are just as friendly as the previous people. Breakfast and other food still very reasonably priced but coffee prices have increased significantly recently. I’ve used it loads of times to have a good breakfast during the 50 minute wait for a connection from the Robin Hood Line to Sheffield and beyond.

I haven’t used my bite card for about 5 years. I gave up on Pumpkin with their high prices and slow service when they reduced the discount. There’s usually some cheaper alternative nearby even if it means a bit of a walk. So many small convenience stores opening up these days. Always use the Co op now in the station entrance when at Nottingham.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the pre covid days i saw thier outlets at Watford and Nuneaton

Possibly more widespread than I thought. I wonder if they were previously a franchisee of Puccino's, but decided for whatever reason to withdraw from that? There is still a Puccino's branded outlet at (I think) Hemel though. Must admit I miss Puccino's, I quite liked their "cynical" brand that laughed at themselves, e.g. printing "stupid little biscuit" on the, er, stupid little biscuit you used to get with your coffee.

With regard to the actual coffee from those outlets it's decent enough, done with a manual machine, and not (in the scheme of railway coffee shops) overpriced.
 

route101

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Possibly more widespread than I thought. I wonder if they were previously a franchisee of Puccino's, but decided for whatever reason to withdraw from that? There is still a Puccino's branded outlet at (I think) Hemel though. Must admit I miss Puccino's, I quite liked their "cynical" brand that laughed at themselves, e.g. printing "stupid little biscuit" on the, er, stupid little biscuit you used to get with your coffee.

With regard to the actual coffee from those outlets it's decent enough, done with a manual machine, and not (in the scheme of railway coffee shops) overpriced.

Was Puccinos a chain in the SE? Rings a bell.
 

Djgr

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There's an app. that provides alternatives to Wetherspoons. Maybe we should develop one for station catering?
 

QueensCurve

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Have Pumpkin folded? The one at my local station has been closed since March quite annoying when wanting a cuppa

If they were to be replaced I wouldn't mind a mini Pret at the station if staff could be transferred over as obviously Pret is way better!

Sadly, since Pumpkin changed their coffee beans about 2y ago their coffee has been blander even than Costa.

Network rail now seems to favour Costa ND Star*ucks as their coffee outlet. So-oh sad. Bigly.
 

Brush 4

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Costa on stations is fine by me. They have established colonies in most petrol stations and supermarkets so stations is the logical next step. Are they in airports, I haven't been to one for ages.
 

gallafent

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Costa on stations is fine by me. They have established colonies in most petrol stations and supermarkets so stations is the logical next step. Are they in airports, I haven't been to one for ages.
Oh yes, in spades. They're everywhere. Second-largest in the world after Starbucks[1]. (That list has them as third, but I figured Dunkin' Donuts isn't a coffee shop ;) … I found more than one in Beijing eight years ago …

Cost is now owned by the world's largest producer of plastic waste, of course.[2]

[1] http://listdose.co/top-10-largest-coffee-chains-in-the-world/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coca-Cola_Company#Plastic_production_and_waste
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh yes, in spades. They're everywhere. Second-largest in the world after Starbucks[1]. (That list has them as third, but I figured Dunkin' Donuts isn't a coffee shop ;) … I found more than one in Beijing eight years ago …

Cost is now owned by the world's largest producer of plastic waste, of course.[2]

[1] http://listdose.co/top-10-largest-coffee-chains-in-the-world/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coca-Cola_Company#Plastic_production_and_waste

They've got that big largely by way of franchising, which (like Subway for example) allows very fast expansion as other people risk their money, not you. Starbucks by contrast operate most of their outlets directly, which even for a multi billion dollar business does slow expansion down a bit.

Personally I think their coffee tastes nicer than the 'Bucks.
 
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