Rail bosses spend £10,000 a week on flights – because it’s cheaper than trains

[TUC]

Not sure where you get that idea from. Rarely have I found business people in Scotland travelling to London or Birmingham and back, by train, for the day.
Probably about the same percentage as those prepared to do it in the opposite direction. 9-10hr in trains (and journeying to and from those trains), plus a meeting or two, is exhausting. Try it a few times and you'll soon find out.

It's rather shorter journeys like that which Londoners complain about in my experience. Plenty of us in West Yorkshire get up early to travel to meetings in London. However, when Londoners need to do the same to travel to Leeds they complain about early starts and long journeys.

 

[apinnard]

I use teams every single day in my job in said ‘government owned company’. However, sometimes, you need to see people in real life.

Amen to that. I’ll go and see my clients “just because” on occasion, and pretty much always come back with an order or a new project out of it. They all love the personal touch of face to face visits and being an MD of a technical company, I like getting away from the desk from time to time.

On a separate note, I did a Huntingdon to Paignton return in a day, by rail. Left home on the Northants/Cambs border at 5.30am and got back at midnight-45. Never again. I’ll stay over next time.

 

[TUC]

Why Engineers Make Great CEOs

As the piece makes clear, in a rather unfair way imho, only an engineer comes to a management post with a pre-existing ability to properly analyse and fix problems.

'Only an engineer'. So an analyst doesn't come into a management role with the ability to analyse and fix problems? A doctor doesn't come into a management role with such skills?

Evrn more oddly, the article states 'On the flip side, many may lack emotional intelligence and the necessary leadership, people management, and communication abilities – soft skills which can be addressed by training to assist their transition into the management arena'

It is an intriguing concept that emotional intelligence and communication abilities are add-ons that can be taught.

 

[43096]

'Only an engineer'. So an analyst doesn't come into a management role with the ability to analyse and fix problems? A doctor doesn't come into a management role with such skills?

It's garbage, isn't it?

In my experience engineers often make poor managers, because they want to revert to type and go and get into the weeds of a problem, rather than doing what they should be doing, which is managing both their team fixing the problem and the customer (and their expectations).

 

[stuu]

And like it or not, employment is not a social exercise. You are confusing the natural aspect of humanity, our need for social interaction, with the extremely recent development of organised contractual employment. Contracts exist precisely because humans doing what they would naturally do around people they do not like, is not good for business. We willingly work with people we do not like because we all understand that organised employment is superior to all that has come before it.

Do we? I would suggest that teams that get along are more successful than ones that don't. You cannot ignore the social interaction side of relationships in the workplace - people will go the extra mile for someone they have a strong relationship with. These factors really do matter, and no amount of cold logic will change that

 

[Huntergreed]

And like it or not, employment is not a social exercise. You are confusing the natural aspect of humanity, our need for social interaction, with the extremely recent development of organised contractual employment. Contracts exist precisely because humans doing what they would naturally do around people they do not like, is not good for business. We willingly work with people we do not like because we all understand that organised employment is superior to all that has come before it.

What an incredibly dispiriting view to take.

It seems to be your opinion that humans should spend the majority of their working time in social isolation, minimising contact with others and only working for pure productivity.

I can’t think of anything worse than the idea of working as an autonomous bot, just a number who appears as a face on a screen and does their bit to turn the cogs of the company to get a job done.

Yes, on paper, this is more efficient, but have you even considered:

1) Staff morale - how are staff expected to feel in these conditions? Humans are biologically social creatures and there is an innate need for regular social contact, as proven by countless studies.

By depriving them of this during working hours (which contributes a significant proportion of life), this is going to have a negative impact on enthusiasm, morale and mental/emotional (and, indirectly, physical) wellbeing. Needless to say, this leads to a decrease in productivity.

2) Company productivity - if employees and stakeholders are not interacting in person - how are they supposed to generate new ideas, form relationships and create a strong ethos?

Many ideas/projects are born from discussions which happen in person, discussions which would not be possible in an entirely remote working environment.

A productive company can work autonomously, but a truly successful company understands how to look after and motivate their employees to thrive, a significant factor of which is encouraging regular social contact.

3) Impact on wider social life - a significant number of social contacts (friends/relationships) are built up in the workplace. Removing this is likely to lead to an increase in loneliness and motivation.

Why would I feel motivated to work for someone who I have never met and never speak to, other than on a computer screen when I’m still half asleep and dealing with my other issues at home?

By all means, if you wish to encourage living as an autonomous bot, then do so. I will continue to recognise the importance of social interaction and human contact, not only for business, but for a healthy lifestyle.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why Engineers Make Great CEOs

That’s it? A 9 year old article written by *checks notes* “someone from an engineering background” which argues only engineers are suited to the top job?

I haven't ignored it. I have gone out of my way to repeatedly say that part of being a good manager is being absolutely aware of what digital communication lacks and how to effectively compensate for it. This can be trained, it is effective, and yet most people here don't seem to appreciate this basic fact, despite it being one of very first things anyone learns in a business and management course. Christ, this stuff can be found in NVQ Levels One type training it is so basic. Non-verbal communication.

Naturally your communication style is excellent and selling everyone to your point of view here, isn’t it?

And like it or not, employment is not a social exercise. You are confusing the natural aspect of humanity, our need for social interaction, with the extremely recent development of organised contractual employment.

I rather suggest you are a typical process driven analytical type who knows the price of everything and the value of not a lot.

I am off to a large client with whom I have a contract of significant value in Lithuania later this month. It’s an expensive trip but it will result in more business. Contracts and sales and relationship building are built on so much more than augmented reality and video calls.

 

[WAB]

The cutting edge stuff is more like Augmented Reality. As absurd as it sounds to be calling it cutting edge when it is literally advertised on television it is so mainstream, or so I thought. Although since nobody seems to want to give a concrete example of what is so critical about these quadrennial mass NR meetings, it is hard to say if it would be of benefit or not. You can stand inside a virtual station layout, for example. Or a hundred truck distribution facility. *shrug emoticon*

How much research has been done into the effect on eyesight and headaches of AR? And is it that mainstream? I'm not sure there are many businesses out there where AR is standard-issue. I would be interested to see how you teach, say, train planning with AR too.

It depresses me to think you might not realise that is actually illegal. Rather than denying a mother or disabled person a job that apparently requires one day travel for site visits even though there has been no reason given why a more relaxed train based itinery wasn't an option in the given scenario, you are actually legally required to show such visits are an absolute necessity for the role. Woolly talk of relationships doesn't fly. Nor does being unable to explain why a (properly implemented) virtual solution wasn't an adequate replacement for visualisation and strategizing purposes. You need literal concrete facts to justify why your boots need to be on the concrete in question.

I don't think you have interpreted this correctly. Chatting with, say, the head of stations for the Eastern Region at the pub or in the kitchen area could alert you to vacancies, give you tips on what skills you need to make it on the stations side, or make a good impression if they're later involved in the hiring process. If you're working from home, you get the contents of the agenda and nothing else. You still get the work of the job in question done, but you don't get opportunities to go further. This isn't about being denied a job, just not having the same access to opportunities to get the skills, network and reputation which stand you in good stead for progression. There are various schemes within NR and TOCs to help marginalised groups progress; whether they are successful or not is not within my lived experience to comment on.

There is literally no circumstance where such a thing is not wholly down to how the technology is being used and (indeed far more likely) the personal shortcomings of those using it.

If Network Rail isn't giving its managers proper training in the basics of communication, that is on them. These basics include knowing how and when to prompt subordinate to offer important information they might have erroneously failed to mention. This can be verbal and non-verbal, It can be as simple as leaving a pause. It is, ironically, about relationships, bearing in mind an in person meeting that goes badly can just as easily set you on a path where a subordinate never does their job properly because you revealed shortcomings in your own role.

To some it is nautral, It can also be taught. But pretending it is something that quite literally requires you to be in the same room to happen, is, if people really through about it, quite absurd.

Because these things crop up in casual conversation, not the formal structure of a teleconference. Even assuming you are correct, NR is not going to find these communication wizards who also know their trade in sufficient numbers to replace us mere mortals who need to use a variety of skills to do our jobs effectively.

This is why engineers make the best managers, a proven fact. You tell me I need to be in the room, I am going to assume there is an issue where I literally need my hands or other senses to be of practical use. Otherwise, why am I there?

It's clear that you do not consider being social a useful part of your toolkit. However, for a great many managers, their subordinates, clients and stakeholders, that socialness is very important and useful. As for engineers, there are plenty of crap ones out there, just as there are plenty of crap brought-in managers and railway specialists. You need a balance, and I don't think many would be happy working under many of the engineers I've worked with.

Someone above already claimed NR is an absolute basket case that cannot retain good people in high level management, and yet that is apparently under this scenario where the company is already holding these meetings four times a year, for these rather woolly reasons of good feels and motivation and personal connections.

You do realise it could be worse than a basket case otherwise?...

 

[Krokodil]

Even Zoom maintains bricks & mortar offices.

 

[D365]

If cost is a consideration, they could use the forum's ticketing site; there is no way the one way price would ever be that much, by booking with us!

Alas, the last time I worked for Network Rail, they had an exclusive supply agreement with Capita Travel.

 

[Bald Rick]

Alas, the last time I worked for Network Rail, they had an exclusive supply agreement with Capita Travel.

The contract has moved to Agito

 

[D365]

The contract has moved to Agito

My condolences

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, Teams is a great system, but sometimes its better to meet in person.

Agreed.
I'm Chair of one of the Committees of one of the largest motor clubs in the country and all our meetings used to be held in London. When the pandemic struck we moved to Zoom or Teams meetings but found that due to the vagrancies of the internet of some of our rural living members we often ended up with breaks in their transmission or having to encourage some to switch off their video. That immediately stops the visible reactions to points and makes it difficult to see when people wanted to make a point. This is a point that some here don't seem to have taken into account.

Now we are attempting to hold 50% of our meetings on Zoom and our other meetings at a more central point, well away from London!

 

[BluePenguin]

Amen to that. I’ll go and see my clients “just because” on occasion, and pretty much always come back with an order or a new project out of it. They all love the personal touch of face to face visits and being an MD of a technical company, I like getting away from the desk from time to time.

On a separate note, I did a Huntingdon to Paignton return in a day, by rail. Left home on the Northants/Cambs border at 5.30am and got back at midnight-45. Never again. I’ll stay over next time.

What was it that made the journey so long?

Agreed.
I'm Chair of one of the Committees of one of the largest motor clubs in the country and all our meetings used to be held in London. When the pandemic struck we moved to Zoom or Teams meetings but found that due to the vagrancies of the internet of some of our rural living members we often ended up with breaks in their transmission or having to encourage some to switch off their video. That immediately stops the visible reactions to points and makes it difficult to see when people wanted to make a point. This is a point that some here don't seem to have taken into account.

Now we are attempting to hold 50% of our meetings on Zoom and our other meetings at a more central point, well away from London!

Surely London is a central point? By train anyway. Travelling North to South is far quicker than East to West

 

[TUC]

What was it that made the journey so long?


Surely London is a central point? By train anyway. Travelling North to South is far quicker than East to West

For a reasonable balance in journey times from across the country Leeds or Manchester is preferable to London. I try and avoid Birmingham as an event location as for several parts of the country it takes far longer to get to than London, Leeds or Manchester.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surely London is a central point? By train anyway. Travelling North to South is far quicker than East to West

Condsidering that members of the Committee range from Manchester to Mid Wales to the far West of Englandl to Portsmouth, no.
We now meet in the Gloucester area, travel by car and don't need overnight accomodation, which many of us did before.
Result it is cheaper for the Club in both travel, accomodation and meeting room/meal costs.

 

[apinnard]

What was it that made the journey so long?


Surely London is a central point? By train anyway. Travelling North to South is far quicker than East to West

I had to do a 7 hour job when I got to the client’s premises.

 

[WAB]

For a reasonable balance in journey times from across the country Leeds or Manchester is preferable to London. I try and avoid Birmingham as an event location as for several parts of the country it takes far longer to get to than London, Leeds or Manchester.

I always thought Derby would be alright as a central location if you weren't relying on short Voyagers or Turbostars for many journeys, and that there is no direct Manchester service.

 

[BluePenguin]

I had to do a 7 hour job when I got to the client’s premises.

That is rough, I would have stayed the night if that was me. I take my hat off to you really

 

[apinnard]

That is rough, I would have stayed the night if that was me. I take my hat off to you really

Thought I’d give it a go. Mostly because at nearly 40, I thought I still had it. I was broken and slept until midday. I own my company so will just book a nice seaside hotel next time

 

[Graham H]

Seems like a typical tabloid clickbait article. Does the boss of Raleigh cycle to meetings, or even the Nike Chairman be expected to jog there ? Common sense says make best use of your time. I used to travel from Southampton to Glasgow and with hand baggage, preprinted boarding pass could rock up 30 mins or less before the flight and actually be in the Glasgow office before the connecting train would have even left Euston. Made for an easy day trip. For longer periods where hotels were needed then I would seek out the best advance rail fare and use that instead as speed was less of a requirement.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems like a typical tabloid clickbait article. Does the boss of Raleigh cycle to meetings, or even the Nike Chairman be expected to jog there ? Common sense says make best use of your time. I used to travel from Southampton to Glasgow and with hand baggage, preprinted boarding pass could rock up 30 mins or less before the flight and actually be in the Glasgow office before the connecting train would have even left Euston. Made for an easy day trip. For longer periods where hotels were needed then I would seek out the best advance rail fare and use that instead as speed was less of a requirement.

If we didn't have those expensive walk-on fares, I suspect that this sort of headline wouldn't have so much resonance with the public

 

[The Planner]

Have a couple of protagonists in this thread been banned?

 

[RT4038]

Have a couple of protagonists in this thread been banned?

Wouldn't the modern expression be 'deforumed' ?

 

[Krokodil]

Does the boss of Raleigh cycle to meetings, or even the Nike Chairman be expected to jog there ?

Hardly relevant, their products aren't designed with business travel in mind. I would expect the boss of Raleigh to use one of his own bikes if he does go out for a ride, if he was buying from the competition I'd wonder what was wrong with his products. Likewise if someone senior in the rail industry (or for that matter the ministers who control it) uses a competitor instead of their own product then there is clearly something wrong with the railways. But we knew that anyway.

Don't you think that if ministers were forced to use the public services that they control, they might fund them properly?

 

[RT4038]

Hardly relevant, their products aren't designed with business travel in mind. I would expect the boss of Raleigh to use one of his own bikes if he does go out for a ride, if he was buying from the competition I'd wonder what was wrong with his products. Likewise if someone senior in the rail industry (or for that matter the ministers who control it) uses a competitor instead of their own product then there is clearly something wrong with the railways. But we knew that anyway.

Don't you think that if ministers were forced to use the public services that they control, they might fund them properly?

5hr each way in a train is not really designed with business travel in mind either. The train is not a serious competitor for the London-Scotland business travel market, until the journey time gets down to about 3hr.

 

[Krokodil]

5hr each way in a train is not really designed with business travel in mind either. The train is not a serious competitor for the London-Scotland business travel market, until the journey time gets down to about 3hr.

Less than four-and-a-quarter currently between Birmingham and the Central Belt with Avanti. It should still give pause for thought though, if those who run the railway don't feel able to use it (bearing in mind that there's not really a cost to them doing so) then what hope has everyone else got? The railway needs to improve. In this case HS2 should knock at least 40 minutes off of the journey times. Regarding XC, the service has long been inadequate, but there seems to be no political will to spend the capital to fix it. Again, if the PM had to take the train to Blackpool/Southampton rather than using a helicopter perhaps he'd be minded to fund the railways properly.

 

[Elecman]

Less than four-and-a-quarter currently between Birmingham and the Central Belt with Avanti. It should still give pause for thought though, if those who run the railway don't feel able to use it (bearing in mind that there's not really a cost to them doing so) then what hope has everyone else got? The railway needs to improve. In this case HS2 should knock at least 40 minutes off of the journey times. Regarding XC, the service has long been inadequate, but there seems to be no political will to spend the capital to fix it. Again, if the PM had to take the train to Blackpool/Southampton rather than using a helicopter perhaps he'd be minded to fund the railways properly.

There is a cost it’s the public fare as they need to purchase a suitable ticket for thier journey

 

[Krokodil]

There is a cost it’s the public fare as they need to purchase a suitable ticket for thier journey

Who pays the cost, and who do they pay it to?

The money comes out of Network Rail's budget (which comes from the Treasury) and the fare goes back to the Treasury. Yes, it's an occupied seat that could be used by someone else but as there aren't compulsory reservations there's nothing stopping anyone else boarding the same train.

 

[The Planner]

Who pays the cost, and who do they pay it to?

The money comes out of Network Rail's budget (which comes from the Treasury) and the fare goes back to the Treasury. Yes, it's an occupied seat that could be used by someone else but as there aren't compulsory reservations there's nothing stopping anyone else boarding the same train.

If it was that cost neutral we would all be going first class. The cost still comes out of a departmental budget which is finite.