Rail fares to go up by 3.1%

[Gooner18]

Rail fares add to rise again in the new year up to a max of 3.1%.

Millions of commuters will have to pay an average of 3.1% more for rail tickets from 2 January.

The rise, announced by industry body the Rail Delivery Group, follows a year of disruption on some lines.

There had been calls for a price freeze following the chaos caused by the introduction of new timetables in May.

The rise, which is lower than the 3.4% average rise for fares in 2018, means another £100 for a Manchester to Liverpool annual season ticket.

RMT union general secretary Mick Cash called it "another kick in the teeth for passengers on Britain's rip-off privatised railways".

Do you think the increase will further decrease passenger numbers?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46387030

 

[Surreytraveller]

What do you mean further decrease? Passenger numbers keep increasing. Fares going up doesn't seem to put people off using the railway

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 3.1% will go to fund (among many other things) the annual pay rise for Mr Cash's union members.
Presumably he would welcome a fares freeze which would imply a zero rise for railway staff for poor performance? (not untypical in other business sectors).
But seriously, removing the annual fares rise would present big problems for the funding of rail services.
It's government policy (both sorts) to hike fares by at least RPI, and also more generally for passengers to pay relatively more than taxpayers.
July RPI was 3.2%, which is why the January rise is closely similar.

The government is steering clear of any comment today, pretending it's down to the rail industry to set fares.
In fact the whole current fares regulation charade (RPI+x%) was established by Labour, and has been continued by the Tories (was RPI+3% at one time).
We'll have to wait till the Williams rail review appears before there is any significant change in policy (if then).
Labour are offering a formula based on CPI, so fares will still rise every year with inflation.

 

[dk1]

rail fares add to rise again in the new year up to a max of 3.1%.
With the RMT stating ;


RMT union general secretary Mick Cash called it "another kick in the teeth for passengers on Britain's rip-off privatised railways".

Do you think the increase will further decrease passenger numbers?

Link below for full article.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46387030

Passenger numbers only briefly declined last year & it has been well publicised with the reasons why. Back on the up again & very much doubt 3% will make a difference.

 

[Meole]

Why should rail fares not rise, everything else does, everyone expects an annual pay or benefit rise, why should rail workers and rail shareholders be cut short ? A move to a CPI basis would be a reasonable change given that many personnel now find they are rewarded by cheaper CPI rather than previous RPI.

 

[Mag_seven]

Why should rail fares not rise, everything else does,

Fuel duty?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Er... the current system of fares regulation was established by a Conservative government, back in 1995. It was originally set at RPi - 1 but is now at RPI + 1. The argument about CPI is a bit specious. If HMG did move fares regulation to a CPI basis, then they would have to raise fares by CPI +2 to raise sufficient cash because, in general, CPI is lower than RPI by about a percentage point. HMG needs the fares revenue to help pay for NR.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'm pretty sure that 3.1% is RPI not RPI+1. Grayling has also stated that he is prepared to move fare increases to CPI the second unions will accept that figure for pay rises.

 

[fowler9]

Why should rail fares not rise, everything else does, everyone expects an annual pay or benefit rise, why should rail workers and rail shareholders be cut short ? A move to a CPI basis would be a reasonable change given that many personnel now find they are rewarded by cheaper CPI rather than previous RPI.

couldn't tell you the last time I got A pay rise that big.

 

[dk1]

couldn't tell you the last time I got A pay rise that big.

Come onto the railway. Our rises are usually a particular figure or RPI+0.5% whichever is the greater.

 

[fowler9]

Come onto the railway. Our rises are usually a particular figure or RPI+0.5% whichever is the greater.

I'm trying. Ha ha. It's quite popular alas and I am not the greatest at selling myself. Am working on it.

 

[dk1]

I'm trying. Ha ha. It's quite popular alas and I am not the greatest at selling myself. Am working on it.

Don't give up.

 

[fowler9]

Don't give up.

Will do mate. That is one thing everyone says, getting the knock back doesn't mean "No, not ever". Thanks by the way.

 

[mrcheek]

when and where are details on individual fares published? and does anyone know what the increase will be for All Line Rovers?

 

[Dave1987]

The 3.1% will go to fund (among many other things) the annual pay rise for Mr Cash's union members.
Presumably he would welcome a fares freeze which would imply a zero rise for railway staff for poor performance? (not untypical in other business sectors).
But seriously, removing the annual fares rise would present big problems for the funding of rail services.
It's government policy (both sorts) to hike fares by at least RPI, and also more generally for passengers to pay relatively more than taxpayers.
July RPI was 3.2%, which is why the January rise is closely similar.

The government is steering clear of any comment today, pretending it's down to the rail industry to set fares.
In fact the whole current fares regulation charade (RPI+x%) was established by Labour, and has been continued by the Tories (was RPI+3% at one time).
We'll have to wait till the Williams rail review appears before there is any significant change in policy (if then).
Labour are offering a formula based on CPI, so fares will still rise every year with inflation.

Hmmm so you go straight for the low hanging fruit, the most poorly paid people on the railways? How about we start getting rid of the ridiculous current franchising models where millions of pounds are wasted? How about we start culling the ridiculous numbers of management positions in the railways? How about actually start looking at where the real waste of money there is in the highly convoluted way the railways are managed. Ow no it’s easier to attack the pay rises of those at the coal face. Reducing the pay rises of RMT members would save hardly anything compared with the mass cost savings in sorting out the broken franchising system.

 

[winks]

Can anyone publish yearly pay awards going back to 2010 for either SWT or Southern ? I ask this because it will give people an indication of the built in costs for rail staff, I bet every year was at least 2.5%

 

[JamesT]

Hmmm so you go straight for the low hanging fruit, the most poorly paid people on the railways? How about we start getting rid of the ridiculous current franchising models where millions of pounds are wasted? How about we start culling the ridiculous numbers of management positions in the railways? How about actually start looking at where the real waste of money there is in the highly convoluted way the railways are managed. Ow no it’s easier to attack the pay rises of those at the coal face. Reducing the pay rises of RMT members would save hardly anything compared with the mass cost savings in sorting out the broken franchising system.

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46398947 staff costs are given as 25% of the costs of running the railway. As we’re talking over £10bn for the railways, staff must be over £2.5bn. It’s one of the biggest single costs. If you want to make the biggest change you go after the biggest factors first.

 

[matt_world2004]

What do you mean further decrease? Passenger numbers keep increasing. Fares going up doesn't seem to put people off using the railway

They have stopped increasing iirc.

 

[kristiang85]

Hmmm so you go straight for the low hanging fruit, the most poorly paid people on the railways? How about we start getting rid of the ridiculous current franchising models where millions of pounds are wasted? How about we start culling the ridiculous numbers of management positions in the railways? How about actually start looking at where the real waste of money there is in the highly convoluted way the railways are managed. Ow no it’s easier to attack the pay rises of those at the coal face. Reducing the pay rises of RMT members would save hardly anything compared with the mass cost savings in sorting out the broken franchising system.

I think the point is that it is extremely rich for Cash to say "its a kick in the teeth for passengers" as one of his political point scoring quotes, yet the government has said they want to go down to CPI inflation but its the unions who rejected it.

 

[Warwick]

Why should rail fares not rise, everything else does, everyone expects an annual pay or benefit rise, why should rail workers and rail shareholders be cut short ? A move to a CPI basis would be a reasonable change given that many personnel now find they are rewarded by cheaper CPI rather than previous RPI.

Everybody might expect an annual pay rise but they don't get one. My luscious lady friend's pay was frozen for six years. The rise that she and her colleagues got this year is nowhere near several years of +2%. For a specialist clinical nurse she's laid a pittance compared with tube drivers. Perhaps if rail services improved by 3.1% people might think differently.

 

[Andyh82]

rail fares add to rise again in the new year up to a max of 3.1%.
With the RMT stating ;


RMT union general secretary Mick Cash called it "another kick in the teeth for passengers on Britain's rip-off privatised railways".

Do you think the increase will further decrease passenger numbers?

Link below for full article.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46387030

Yet the fare rise will partially go towards paying for a pay rise for RMT members.

Maybe they should have a fare freeze and hence a pay freeze and see what Cash has to say then.

 

[Meole]

Network Rail management salaries are performance related ?

 

[Dave1987]

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46398947 staff costs are given as 25% of the costs of running the railway. As we’re talking over £10bn for the railways, staff must be over £2.5bn. It’s one of the biggest single costs. If you want to make the biggest change you go after the biggest factors first.

Of course it is going to be one of the biggest costs. But attacking the pay rises of the lowest paid is not going to save much. It's the easiest to do which is why Grayling went for it because he doesn't want to solve the harder savings. Remember the RMT represents some of the lowest paid staff on the railways. Why is it always the people at the bottom who have to be squeezed first?

 

[MichaelAMW]

I think the point is that it is extremely rich for Cash to say "its a kick in the teeth for passengers" as one of his political point scoring quotes, yet the government has said they want to go down to CPI inflation but its the unions who rejected it.

I have some sympathy with your comment here: I'm not saying that Mr Cash, via his childishly worded anachronistic press releases, shouldn't seek to protect his members and neither do I think (or even know) if it's reasonable to consider using CPI, but his hypocrisy is rank.

More constructively, does anyone have any idea of the costs or numbers for different types of staff? I'm thinking categories like:

Drivers
Guards
Station staff - on the platform
Station staff - others e.g. ticket office
Other TOC operational staff, e.g. in depots on the maintenance or local supervisory side
TOC Central management
Network Rail signallers
Network Rail engineering side
Network Rail control, management, planning

Just a guess of a list but I'd be interested to know. It slightly comes from something I read in the Telegraph letters page a while ago regarding DOO. The writer spoke of his commuter train from somewhere in Surrey/Sussex/Kent taking about an hour and only about a dozen of the 500+ passengers' fares being needed to cover the wages of the train crew, and even that assumed more than 100% overhead on top of pay packet costs. He asked where the rest of the money goes as there didn't seem to be much of an economic argument for getting rid of guards and, I guess, if all those other people in my list are rather numerous then train crew really aren't an overwhelming cost to the railway.

[The numbers in the letter were something like an equivalent of £15 per hour-long journey on his annual season, which would give £180 per hour per dozen passengers, amply covering the £50ish per hour the driver and guard were getting paid. So where does the other £7500 end up??!! Guestimate numbers, of course, which give train crew costing 3%, but even if the reality is a bit different it's a well-made point.]

 

[Ken H]

I have some sympathy with your comment here: I'm not saying that Mr Cash, via his childishly worded anachronistic press releases, shouldn't seek to protect his members and neither do I think (or even know) if it's reasonable to consider using CPI, but his hypocrisy is rank.

More constructively, does anyone have any idea of the costs or numbers for different types of staff? I'm thinking categories like:

Drivers
Guards
Station staff - on the platform
Station staff - others e.g. ticket office
Other TOC operational staff, e.g. in depots on the maintenance or local supervisory side
TOC Central management
Network Rail signallers
Network Rail engineering side
Network Rail control, management, planning

Just a guess of a list but I'd be interested to know. It slightly comes from something I read in the Telegraph letters page a while ago regarding DOO. The writer spoke of his commuter train from somewhere in Surrey/Sussex/Kent taking about an hour and only about a dozen of the 500+ passengers' fares being needed to cover the wages of the train crew, and even that assumed more than 100% overhead on top of pay packet costs. He asked where the rest of the money goes as there didn't seem to be much of an economic argument for getting rid of guards and, I guess, if all those other people in my list are rather numerous then train crew really aren't an overwhelming cost to the railway.

[The numbers in the letter were something like an equivalent of £15 per hour-long journey on his annual season, which would give £180 per hour per dozen passengers, amply covering the £50ish per hour the driver and guard were getting paid. So where does the other £7500 end up??!! Guestimate numbers, of course, which give train crew costing 3%, but even if the reality is a bit different it's a well-made point.]

Track access charges to notwork rail
train leasing costs
train mainteneace costs
station staff
station operating costs like maintenance, providing PIS, lighting

 

[AlistairCowell]

And "Anne" announcements

 

[winks]

Guards pay of £38,000 is totally overpaid in my opinion . (By about 8k) A nurse starting out will be on c£23k and does far more training and requires qualifications

 

[GB]

Guards pay of £38,000 is totally overpaid in my opinion . (By about 8k) A nurse starting out will be on c£23k and does far more training and requires qualifications

Lets not get into another silly argument about railway wages vs emergency/health care wages.

 

[dk1]

Lets not get into another silly argument about railway wages vs emergency/health care wages.

Here here. It's just pointless.

 

[yorksrob]

Well this year, I believe I've paid at least twice what I would have expected to, (probably more) due to having to go around blockades, strikes and get taxi's from random stations. Even if everything's running normally next year, it will seem like shang-ri-la compared to this year's crap heap.