Rail operators forced to tell passengers how to get cheapest fare - Telegraph

[GrimsbyPacer]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/ticket-machines-to-get-new-warning-label

RTM has learned that this whole deal thing will just amount to a sticker saying you can get a better deal in the ticket booth.

 

[GatwickDepress]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/ticket-machines-to-get-new-warning-label

RTM has learned that this whole deal thing will just amount to a sticker saying you can get a better deal in the ticket booth.

Can't deny, the industry has certainly taken Occam's razor to the problem.

...

What about stations without ticket offices?

 

[infobleep]

Another example of not doing basic usability testing. The URL is obscured FFS!

Sure, it's pretty obvious what it is - but come on! I've had to read loads of style guides for print and digital design and the user interface should have strict rules to prevent this sort of thing.

I didn't spot that! Well it doesn't surprise me given South West Trains Web Site. They quote some urls on Twitter and then when you click on them you get a message saying this page is not available on mobiles yet. Doesn't even take you to an unfriendly mobile page.

Although recently it has been possible to view their major engineering works page, for the big 5-6 weekends engineering work around Wimbledon, providing you know the work around. This being the one where every line is shut so something their passengers would really want to know about.

Anyway following the link on Twitter you get a page not available for mobile message. However if you go back, using your back button and click on the link again in Twitter, it takes you to an unfriendly mobile page and not the message. One would need to figure that out of course. It isn't obvious and certainly isn't promoted on Twitter as the way to view the web page on a mobile.

So if South West Trains can do things like that, it doesn't surprise me about the TVM. South West Trains are good at lots of other things though. This, as in the TVM and Web Site, just happens to something they are not so good at.

 

[pne]

Another example of not doing basic usability testing. The URL is obscured FFS!

Sure, it's pretty obvious what it is

Obvious to us; not necessarily so to the average traveller.

I agree that it's really bad design to obscure such information.

 

[Sleepy]

Even on rural routes in East Anglia dft are busy splashing cash on new TVM at unmanned stations, Cromer being the next to be installed. Seems Guards commission is a target for elimination ala Mc Nulty report. What a great way to encourage DOO.

 

[rdeez]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/ticket-machines-to-get-new-warning-label

RTM has learned that this whole deal thing will just amount to a sticker saying you can get a better deal in the ticket booth.

The Telegraph article in the original post seems to suggest this is an interim measure leading to TVM updates:

Ministers want the train companies to begin overhauling their fares database to ensure that ticket machines automatically direct passengers to the cheapest possible ticket.
However, as a stop-gap measure, the companies will be forced from March 2015 to label all machines with warnings that passengers could be getting cheaper tickets from manned offices.

 

[talldave]

that do not make any sense. Adding super off -peak tickets is just adding a category of ticket to offer. Still, given its Northern Rail, you can rely on them to be incompetent with even the simplest things. Was there ever a rail company that more needed to be put out of its misery as quickly as possible.

Yes, Southern and all it's Govia based siblings !!

 

[RPM]

It seems to me that the core of the problem is that the fares system is simply too complex to be successfully retailed through a TVM, hence the available range if products on a TVM is restricted to allow for this. If you buy a ticket from a ticket office the clerk will draw on their training and experience to sell you the best ticket. On a TVM you are required to do all that thinking for yourself. Most pax understandably don't have the required knowledge to do this. If you rig the machines to ask the plethora of necessary questions required to identify the correct ticket then you will start running into vastly unacceptable transaction times.
I feel the industry has been drifting towards an over-reliance on TVMs for the past decade and the chickens are now coming home to roost. If you want automated self-service ticketing that's fine, but it requires a simple fare structure. If you want a complex, yield management based fare structure then you need human beings selling the tickets.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Will it recognise cheaper fares with split tickets.

For example, it was cheaper for me to travel from Petersfield to Horley by buying two separate anytime day returns. One from Petersfield to Gatwick airport, and the second from Gatwick airport to Horley.

Oh and the guard on the SN service was slack. After the train had divided at Horsham it ran fast to Barnham. Not once did he come round a lightly loaded 4 car train and check tickets in the whole journey from Horley to Havant, despite having plenty of time between Horsham and Barnham.

 

[Starmill]

Will it recognise cheaper fares with split tickets.

For example, it was cheaper for me to travel from Petersfield to Horley by buying two separate anytime day returns. One from Petersfield to Gatwick airport, and the second from Gatwick airport to Horley.

Are you kidding? This would be pretty much impossible. Also, it's exactly the sort of thing the TOCs do NOT want you doing, because they want you to buy their overpriced through ticket. You're only entitled to the cheapest through ticket appropriate for your journey anyway. If you want more than that you'll have to work for it.

 

[TUC]

Was surprised to see a QR code on the TVM at Guildford the other day. It's a South West Trains TVM. Don't remember seeing a QR code before. It appears when you select your ticket to book.

I scanned it in on my mobile and it took me to a non mobile friendly page about tickets on National Rail Enquiries Web Site.

What is the point of a QR code that takes you to a non-mobile friendly webpage?

 

[infobleep]

What is the point of a QR code that takes you to a non-mobile friendly webpage?

Well the non friendly page is not maintained by South West Trains so that is no doubt considered a matter for National Rail Enquiries. National Rail Enquiries don't own or make/design the TVM, so the displaying of QR code which takes you to their non friendly mobile page is no doubt considered a matter for South West Trains.

I've not raised this with either of them just my cynical view on what they each could say about the matter.

At least you don't get a web page saying this page is not available for mobile devices yet.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not even sure why the TVM should be telling you to scan a code or enter a URL when you could be reading all the detail on the machine itself! Just like departure boards telling you to check the website for engineering work information.

 

[maniacmartin]

I noticed the QR code on Thameslink TVMs too at St Pancras. They also go to a general page, not one with the restriction code for the ticket you are buying

 

[talldave]

It's utterly stupid that to buy some tickets I have to stand next to the TVM and purchase on my 'phone, then immediately collect the tickets from the TVM.

It's also stupid that I cannot buy some tickets with my 'phone that the TVM will sell me...

What's needed is equality in the range of tickets available online, at a TVM and from the ticket office.

Why should I queue for 20 minutes at Gatwick to buy an Off Peak ticket for travel tomorrow, simply because the TVM (with no queue) will not?

According to the morons specifying Southern's TVMs, "tomorrow" only exists after 4pm and even then, only for Anytime travel.

 

[jon0844]

Because you're told it can take two hours to pick up, you have to book a train two hours ahead or many online booking engines refuse to sell tickets. In reality it's usually instant, but I have been caught out once where it was about 15 minutes.

Suffice to say there's a risk in ordering on your app to collect when at a station, but usually it's okay. Of course it would better if you could just use the TVM in the first place.

 

[Merseysider]

Because you're told it can take two hours to pick up, you have to book a train two hours ahead or many online booking engines refuse to sell tickets. In reality it's usually instant, but I have been caught out once where it was about 15 minutes.

Suffice to say there's a risk in ordering on your app to collect when at a station, but usually it's okay. Of course it would better if you could just use the TVM in the first place.

Is it instant wherever you buy the ticket from, or is it quicker to use one booking engine than another?

 

[bb21]

WebTIS is instantaneous and many people's experiences can back that up. Mytrainticket used to promise a time lag of 15 minutes, but they now use the standard TTL engine.

TTL engines generally have a small delay, which can on occasion exceed two hours.

 

[infobleep]

It's utterly stupid that to buy some tickets I have to stand next to the TVM and purchase on my 'phone, then immediately collect the tickets from the TVM.

It's also stupid that I cannot buy some tickets with my 'phone that the TVM will sell me...

What's needed is equality in the range of tickets available online, at a TVM and from the ticket office.

Why should I queue for 20 minutes at Gatwick to buy an Off Peak ticket for travel tomorrow, simply because the TVM (with no queue) will not?

According to the morons specifying Southern's TVMs, "tomorrow" only exists after 4pm and even then, only for Anytime travel.

I believe South West Trains trust passengers after 3pm but again it might only be any time travel tickets. By trust I mean for a passenger to only use the ticket tomorrow and not today. I assume that is one of the reasons they don't sell further in advance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WebTIS is instantaneous and many people's experiences can back that up. Mytrainticket used to promise a time lag of 15 minutes, but they now use the standard TTL engine.

TTL engines generally have a small delay, which can on occasion exceed two hours.

What is a passengers rights if the time exceeds two hours for collection, if you have allowed two hours to collect, with a little bit of extra time to them board your train?

 

[bb21]

What is a passengers rights if the time exceeds two hours for collection, if you have allowed two hours to collect, with a little bit of extra time to them board your train?

Not sure about that. I had to buy a new ticket and SWT gave me a refund afterwards as I booked it with them.

Not practical if the ticket costs hundreds of pounds though.

 

[talldave]

I believe South West Trains trust passengers after 3pm but again it might only be any time travel tickets. By trust I mean for a passenger to only use the ticket tomorrow and not today. I assume that is one of the reasons they don't sell further in advance.

Your question reflects the "customers are guilty of fare evasion unless they can prove they're innocent" mentality the TOCs suffer from.

Selling tickets is one thing; using them is another. If I am stupid enough to purchase a ticket for tomorrow and then immediately try to travel today with it, then I should expect to encounter problems.

However, I find it insulting and patronising to be told then when I want to purchase a ticket for travel tomorrow from a TVM that I am either "too early" or to not be offered the ticket I need.

I'll say again - I cannot think of any other industry that puts so many barriers in the way of people trying to do business with it.

I need 4 tickets for this coming week. Sat in front of this PC I could buy two of them right now, but not the other two. I'll be able to buy the other two on the days I need them from a TVM at the station. But if I wanted to buy them all today, I would have to go to a ticket office. It's pathetic really, but what can I do? I'm stuck with Govia/Southern as my supplier and however much I detest their incompetence and poor customer service, I cannot go anywhere else.

 

[infobleep]

Your question reflects the "customers are guilty of fare evasion unless they can prove they're innocent" mentality the TOCs suffer from.

Selling tickets is one thing; using them is another. If I am stupid enough to purchase a ticket for tomorrow and then immediately try to travel today with it, then I should expect to encounter problems.

However, I find it insulting and patronising to be told then when I want to purchase a ticket for travel tomorrow from a TVM that I am either "too early" or to not be offered the ticket I need.

I'll say again - I cannot think of any other industry that puts so many barriers in the way of people trying to do business with it.

I need 4 tickets for this coming week. Sat in front of this PC I could buy two of them right now, but not the other two. I'll be able to buy the other two on the days I need them from a TVM at the station. But if I wanted to buy them all today, I would have to go to a ticket office. It's pathetic really, but what can I do? I'm stuck with Govia/Southern as my supplier and however much I detest their incompetence and poor customer service, I cannot go anywhere else.

The railway companies are not the only people to have that mentality. The Ordnance Survey also have the same mentality and a reasonable number of lawyers to go with it.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Is it instant wherever you buy the ticket from, or is it quicker to use one booking engine than another?

www.trainsplit.com is instantaneous

 

[Clip]

Are ticket office staff trained up fully enough to tell passengers?

Last year i went to the ticket office in Norwich and asked for a next day return ticket to Norwich from Harlow Town they quoted me £36.

Sounded a bit much i then went onto the concourse checked on my mobile bingo 2 advance singles £11.70 each.

Should have seen the look on their faces when i went back to the ticket office,and asked why they had not told me about the cheaper advances,and bingo they issued 2 advance singles for the next day.!

Maybe if you had asked them for 2 single tickets in the first place and not a return then you wouldn't have had to use your phone The clerk was only offering you what you asked for

 

[Richard1960]

Maybe if you had asked them for 2 single tickets in the first place and not a return then you wouldn't have had to use your phone The clerk was only offering you what you asked for

True but due to their skill and expertise.........................................

I would have thought they should have told me two singles would be cheaper.

Instead of one return ticket not unreasonable i think,after all how as we as customers supposed to know they are the "experts" in this case.! anyway if they are now supposed to tell you of cheaper ways now i expect they will HA HA. .

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps TVMs (and machines used by ticket sellers) could do a quick scan of singles - and I assume that this means advance tickets in reality - and flag up if there's a cheaper combination.

A ticket seller can then say that there are possibly cheaper tickets, but with restrictions (e.g. having to take a specific train). It's then up to the customer to pursue this or not.

That's one thing you do get on many online booking engines (but, usually only in a full desktop mode, not a mobile mode). I do think it's just as bad that mobile apps or mobile pages of online sites are usually far more restrictive and give a lot less information. And it can be quite hard to force the site to deliver the desktop/PC site at times, as well as the obvious issues about how easy it is to see/navigate on a smaller display (and lower resolution). Not everyone has a 5-inch screen with full HD resolution, or higher.

 

[Clip]

True but due to their skill and expertise.........................................

I would have thought they should have told me two singles would be cheaper.

Why should they? As it stands there is nothing that implores them to do so. You asked for a return not 2 singles.

From memory Norwich can be busy at limes like a lot of stations so you are happy for the clerk to go through many permutations to get you what may be a cheaper couple of tickets to travel and to hell with everyone else?

Instead of one return ticket not unreasonable i think,after all how as we as customers supposed to know they are the "experts" in this case.! anyway if they are now supposed to tell you of cheaper ways now i expect they will HA HA.

HA HA HA HA HA they are still NOT saying that the clerk at the booking office will have to offer you splits or even singles just that the machine has to tell you that there is a cheaper ticket - just like RJ said above when a TC is cheaper than the point to point return and such like, or maybe there is a super off peak that doesn't show on the TVM in case you missed it its on post #1 or you can read the story in full again here

 

[Richard1960]

Why should they? As it stands there is nothing that implores them to do so. You asked for a return not 2 singles.

From memory Norwich can be busy at limes like a lot of stations so you are happy for the clerk to go through many permutations to get you what may be a cheaper couple of tickets to travel and to hell with everyone else?




HA HA HA HA HA they are still NOT saying that the clerk at the booking office will have to offer you splits or even singles just that the machine has to tell you that there is a cheaper ticket - just like RJ said above when a TC is cheaper than the point to point return and such like, or maybe there is a super off peak that doesn't show on the TVM in case you missed it its on post #1 or you can read the story in full again here

Not at 15.00 pm in the afternoon.

Anyway i complained to a higher authority and the c/s on Norwich station platform agreed with me after i had looked on my mobile and bought the ticket.

That if it was cheaper then the ticket office booking staff should have offered two singles,as indeed they do at cambridge station which for its size is extremely busy and still run by AGA.

They might not be implored to do so but it did look bad on them and they were suitably embarrassed enough said.They are the "experts not me"OH and i got a £20 Travel voucher.

So i am happy and as "The Customer" thats the way it should be.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect we should ask Hairyhandedfool about this one. If, on being asked for a future dated return to somewhere and there are Advances available with the origin and destination specified by the passenger he would offer them, it is probably legitimate to do so.

The problem arises for certain journeys such as Stafford to York. There are advances available by splitting at Manchester, or a walk-up ticket to Birmingham and then an advance from there to York. Otherwise the only available tickets are the pricey Off-Peak and Anytime returns. What is to be recommended in this case is much more of a grey area.

 

[island]

I disagree that it's a grey area. The clerk has no obligation to recommend anything other than a through ticket.