Railcard (not valid without signature)

[TBY-Paul]

I've just been reading a series of posts in the Disputes & Prosecutions sections and mention has been made about railcards not being valid if the railcard is not signed. The T&C's seam to confirm this, and I've noticed it also re-affirms this on the card itself.
So, what happens in the case of the person being unable to sign the back of the railcard?
My wife has a Disabled Persons railcard, which is valid until August 2016, her condition is such that when the time comes to renew the card she may no longer physically be able to sign the railcard.

I suppose I could sign it on her behalf, but would this be a breach of T&C's? Could we find ourselves in serious trouble if I was to sign it on her behalf?

Since starting to read the Disputes & Prosecutions section, I get paranoid about making a mistake and falling foul of the rules.

 

[Romilly]

It occurs to me that if signing a railcard may have become difficult, signing other things may also have become difficult. In that event, your wife may well by then have considered granting power of attorney (either an ordinary power of attorney, or a lasting power of attorney). As a matter of general law, the person exercising powers under a power of attorney can sign most things on behalf of the person who gave them the power: as the exceptions are things like wills, I would have thought that signing a railcard was something that could be done under a general power of attorney.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So, what happens in the case of the person being unable to sign the back of the railcard?
My wife has a Disabled Persons railcard, which is valid until August 2016, her condition is such that when the time comes to renew the card she may no longer physically be able to sign the railcard.

I suppose I could sign it on her behalf, but would this be a breach of T&C's? Could we find ourselves in serious trouble if I was to sign it on her behalf?....

Persons with impairments should be shown discretion if the impairment prevents them signing the card, as is the case with any other impairment issue.

 

[drbdrb]

People who may have a difficulty signing the card should not have to rely on "discretion", there should be a formal process to address this issue.

I suggest you write to your local train company and ask what it is.

 

[Romilly]

In essence we are talking about "reasonable adjustments" under disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act.

 

[gordonthemoron]

howabout I can't write because I work in IT?

 

[AM9]

howabout I can't write because I work in IT?

Just tell them your RailUK forum name - they'll understand.

 

[SussexMan]

I've known many people who are physically unable to sign. They got a local ink stamping company to make up a signature stamp, either of their own signature prior to them losing their ability to sign, or a signature mark which they were happy with. Never had any problems in using this for financial transactions, cheques, agreements etc.

 

[route:oxford]

My wife has a Disabled Persons railcard, which is valid until August 2016, her condition is such that when the time comes to renew the card she may no longer physically be able to sign the railcard.

I suppose I could sign it on her behalf, but would this be a breach of T&C's? Could we find ourselves in serious trouble if I was to sign it on her behalf?

Any mark that your partner makes that she is capable of considering to be her signature will become her signature. Whether that mark is made with her holding a pen in her hands, feet or mouth. (Or anywhere else!)

There are many people out there who cannot read or write and often just make a "x". Although it is often witnessed for future clarification.

Probably best to sort out a power of attorney now though.

Since starting to read the Disputes & Prosecutions section, I get paranoid about making a mistake and falling foul of the rules.

I'd be paranoid too if everyone were out to get me.

 

[TUC]

It occurs to me that if signing a railcard may have become difficult, signing other things may also have become difficult. In that event, your wife may well by then have considered granting power of attorney (either an ordinary power of attorney, or a lasting power of attorney). As a matter of general law, the person exercising powers under a power of attorney can sign most things on behalf of the person who gave them the power: as the exceptions are things like wills, I would have thought that signing a railcard was something that could be done under a general power of attorney.

As helpful as a Power of Attorney can be for some things, it would be wrong if a person who has capacity to make their own decisions ended up needing to make a Power of Attorney for someone else to make the decisions simply for the sake of someone signing documents on their behalf.

Besides which, I think a little common sense is needed here. If a railcard is clearly named as being for the person who is holding it, I really don't see anyone making an issue over who has signed it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both my good lady wife and I are holders of 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards and the size of print type at the top of the reverse of the plastic card clearly stating the card should be signed is quite large enough for anyone to see.

 

[TUC]

Both my good lady wife and I are holders of 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards and the size of print type at the top of the reverse of the plastic card clearly stating the card should be signed is quite large enough for anyone to see.

But the OP wasn't about being able to see the instruction. It was about physically being able to sign it. However, as discussed above, both common sense and legal requirements on adjustment means that this should not be enforced if the railcard holder cannot physically sign.

 

[andrewkeith5]

This thread has caught my intrigue now. I just had a look at the back of my 16-25 railcard and sure enough it says "not valid unless signed". I've had four different railcards now and I don't recall ever having signed one -I certainly haven't signed my current one (well, I have now, obviously, but you get the drift).

Assuming the picture has some vague resemblance to the holder, how many people have been punished for not having signed a railcard? In all my travels I've never been asked to show the back of my railcard and I cant think of any reason why a railcard with the right picture and name would need to be signed. I never had to provide a signature on my application and the TOC has no powers to see anything with my signature on, so all that they could do is ask me to reproduce what's on the railcard on a piece of paper.

All seems quite pointless... But then I suppose my driving licence has my 7 year dated signature which bears little resemblance to my current signature too...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the OP wasn't about being able to see the instruction. It was about physically being able to sign it. However, as discussed above, both common sense and legal requirements on adjustment means that this should not be enforced if the railcard holder cannot physically sign.

X is a legally valid signature?

Neil

 

[najaB]

X is a legally valid signature?

Yes. You can use any mark as a signature as long as you're (reasonably) sure that you can identify it as yours.

 

[telstarbox]

I've seen a TPE guard make people sign their Railcard on the train before.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It occurs to me that if signing a railcard may have become difficult, signing other things may also have become difficult. In that event, your wife may well by then have considered granting power of attorney (either an ordinary power of attorney, or a lasting power of attorney). . . . .

As helpful as a Power of Attorney can be for some things, it would be wrong if a person who has capacity to make their own decisions ended up needing to make a Power of Attorney for someone else to make the decisions simply for the sake of someone signing documents on their behalf. . . .

I hold power of Attorney, under both the English and Scottish arrangements.
It is not wrong for an Attorney registered in England & Wales to act in financial matters while the subject / client has the mental capacity if the Attorney is authorised and/or instructed to do so.

 

[TUC]

I hold power of Attorney, under both the English and Scottish arrangements.
It is not wrong for an Attorney registered in England & Wales to act in financial matters while the subject / client has the mental capacity if the Attorney is authorised and/or instructed to do so.

It's not wrong for them to but it can be tremendously disempowering for the disabled person. Why should someone who has capacity to make decisions of their own give that power to someone else just for the sake of a signature?

 

[najaB]

It's not wrong for them to but it can be tremendously disempowering for the disabled person. Why should someone who has capacity to make decisions of their own give that power to someone else just for the sake of a signature?

As I understand it, and DaveNewcastle please correct me if I'm wrong, giving someone power of attorney doesn't stop me from making decisions for myself, it gives that person (or persons) shared power to act on my behalf in situations where I'm unable to.

 

[TUC]

I think that's correct. It's more the principle of giving someone the power to make decisions on your behalf just for the sake of someone wanting a signature for technical reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must admit I don't understand why you need to sign the Railcard. You have to sign the application form, which signifies acceptance of the T&Cs.

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's not wrong for them to but it can be tremendously disempowering for the disabled person. Why should someone who has capacity to make decisions of their own give that power to someone else just for the sake of a signature?

It is incumbent on the Attorney to act only in the best interests of the person who granted them that power.

I struggle to reconcile "tremendously disempowering" with, firstly "granting authority" and then secondly "instructing the attorney" to do something.
I have no intention of doing any more for them than is necessary to protect and maintain their interest and their assets, and if I can achieve that by suggesting that they might like to do something themselves, then that's one less thing for me to do.

As I understand it, and DaveNewcastle please correct me if I'm wrong, giving someone power of attorney doesn't stop me from making decisions for myself, it gives that person (or persons) shared power to act on my behalf in situations where I'm unable to.

It certainly would NOT restrict you from making decsions for yourself! It is a power which is invoked when a person is unable to act for themselves (or unable to act responsibly in terms of what is in their own best interests). The Attorney should stand aside when the person resumes control, though should retain an observer's status.

It is often advised that we should all appoint an Attorney, in anticipation of the need to have someone act for us in the event of an untoward eventuality which diminishes our capacity. Sometimes even a spouse has been surprised to find that they don't have the authority to act in their partner's best interest in a time of need.

I will agree that there is always the potential for abuse of an authority, which may be manifest in several ways, though there are practical measures to limit and/or control abuse. Law firms which offer support for family matters will have someone who can advise with the appropriate particulars for each person.

 

[extendedpaul]

I have been asked several times on HS1 to remove my network railcard from its wallet and show the reverse to the conductor.

I also witnessed a dispute with a young lady who was being given the choice of either signing her 16-26 railcard or buying a new undiscounted ticket, She became very argumentative but the conductor handled the situation calmly and very professionally and she did eventually sign it !

 

[Stompa]

Well I've had a railcard for 11 years now. When I purchase them at a ticket office they stick it in a small plastic wallet, and it has never occurred to me to take it out and read the back, but it does indeed say "not valid unless signed". Nobody has ever asked to look at the back either.