Rails left beside track........

[The Decapod]

I know that engineers have always been in the habit of leaving lengths of rail beside the track during work and that sometimes it got left for a while.

But these days everywhere there seems to be lengths of rail beside the track - either old rail or what looks like new replacement rail. Even in railway magazines, when you look at photos of trains on the national network, chances are there's some bits of unused rail beside the track.

Is it current practice to leave old rails beside the track indefinitely? Today, while travelling by train, I saw some sections of rail that looked short enough for a group of strong young vandals, intent on causing damage, to be able to manhandle onto the track as an obstruction. I know rail is very heavy, but if permanent way gangs can move it, then so, presumably, could a vandal gang with the aid of levers and ropes.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Didn't they used to get convicts to put them into wagons? Or is that some rumour I've heard?

 

[The Decapod]

Didn't they used to get coinvicts to put them into wagons? Or is that some vicious rumour I've heard?

After they'd cut the rails up into 6 inch lengths with a hand hacksaw!

 

[142094]

Some of the rails could be there for engineering purposes, they may not be old but just unused. As for the rest, sounds like they are waiting for someone to take them to the scrap yard. Perhaps Network Rail are waiting a bit to see if scrap metal prices rise any further? Could be some sort of tactical storage going on?

 

[Wyvern]

Jungle Ron's Cess Gallery

 

[boing_uk]

Ugh blimey. Even though I dont work for NR, I sometimes wish I did, because there is just no management of the crap that is left at the lineside.

Ive just done GMB to BPN today (and the reverse journey a few days ago) and gazing out of the window, the state of the lineside is just atrocious from a maintenance perspective.

Certainly the amount of wastage makes me shudder. Packs of rail insulating pads, for instance, just chucked in the undergrowth at the lineside (they've been there for over a year of me doing this journey I will add) and at Doncaster there is a huge pile of chopped up rail in that bit of land between the track and the boundary fence.

Now, I am not advocating a return to the perfect tracksides of yesteryear, but as an old engineer once told me "if it looks well maintained, it probably is being"...

It just annoys me that the amount of taxpayer £££ that NR gets, to see materials wasted in the way that they are.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is so much pressure of time to achieve track renewals during short posessions, that clearing up afterwards simply isn't even at a low priority.

The time required to secure the site of a posession, to deply crew and materials, check everything is as per agreed procedure then finally do some renewals before restoring the line for safe running again, all within the time allotted, just isn't the sort of work plan that's going to meet any productivity targets if you also add in time for loading discarded rail onto vehicles and removing them!

 

[142094]

Wonder what the value of all the scrap metal on linesides is?

 

[The Decapod]

I noticed that locally that some recently replaced track has new steel sleepers.
Are these made from melted-down rails, I wonder? The fresh rust on the new rails and sleepers is the same orange colour.

 

[boing_uk]

There is so much pressure of time to achieve track renewals during short posessions, that clearing up afterwards simply isn't even at a low priority.

The time required to secure the site of a posession, to deply crew and materials, check everything is as per agreed procedure then finally do some renewals before restoring the line for safe running again, all within the time allotted, just isn't the sort of work plan that's going to meet any productivity targets if you also add in time for loading discarded rail onto vehicles and removing them!

And that is kind of my point. Unrealistic renewals targets, inadequate maintenace, unrealistic timescales.

I've seen exactly the same kind of thinking in highways (usually from engineers in suits who I personally wouldnt trust to maintain a lawn let alone a highway) and it is ALWAYS counter-productive, costs more in both time, material, and long-term maintenance.

 

[ajdunlop]

I believe NR have a new material recycling facility at Westbury which opened in the last month (although not sure if that's for sleepers, rails or both). Potentially over the last couple of years engineers have just been storing old rails along lines until such a facility was completed.

 

[Clip]

Since te track between princes risborough and aylesbury got upgraded many years ago they have still not moved the spoil nor the rail - though i have not been on that branch for a year so may have changed

 

[O L Leigh]

You can usually see the progress of the renewals teams from the front of the course of the weeks.

To start off with, all the resources will be delivered on-site and left near an access point. Then the various bags of clips, pads and whatnot will be distributed along the lineside. Sometimes you will even see that the bags and bundles have been opened and the contents laid out along the length of line. Then you have the possession and the renewals are done. Once that has been given up you get lengths of old rail and other discarded items of redundant equipment left where it lies. Then eventually it will be gathered up and piled near an access point ahead of eventually being carted away.

This is all down to time constraints. The amount of time available to do renewals is tiny and so it has to be used as efficiently as possible. Therefore all the assets are delivered to the worksites ahead of time and the clearing up left until later so that the contractor can maximise the amount of work done in the few hours that the line is under possession. It's not a neat or tidy way of working, but if you have a 6 hour possession and needed to wait for everything to arrive on-site and then tidy up after yourself you'd never get anything done.

O L Leigh

 

[The Snap]

You can usually see the progress of the renewals teams from the front of the course of the weeks.

To start off with, all the resources will be delivered on-site and left near an access point. Then the various bags of clips, pads and whatnot will be distributed along the lineside. Sometimes you will even see that the bags and bundles have been opened and the contents laid out along the length of line. Then you have the possession and the renewals are done. Once that has been given up you get lengths of old rail and other discarded items of redundant equipment left where it lies. Then eventually it will be gathered up and piled near an access point ahead of eventually being carted away.

This is all down to time constraints. The amount of time available to do renewals is tiny and so it has to be used as efficiently as possible. Therefore all the assets are delivered to the worksites ahead of time and the clearing up left until later so that the contractor can maximise the amount of work done in the few hours that the line is under possession. It's not a neat or tidy way of working, but if you have a 6 hour possession and needed to wait for everything to arrive on-site and then tidy up after yourself you'd never get anything done.

O L Leigh

Very true. A tidy lineside does absolutely nothing for the efficient running of the railway. Whether it's tidy or not, it makes no difference whatsoever to train times/delays etc...

Picking materials up from the lineside and taking them away can be difficult too. If there is a wide cess where pick-up vans can drive, then it's not too bad as the materials can be taken away by road. However, if the area where the materials have been left is inaccessible by road, and only by foot, they may well need to be carted off by rail; loading up a train with waste/unused materials will be time consuming - time which is not available readily in the timetable.

I'd rather have an untidy lineside and a train running bang on time, rather than a spotless lineside but delayed train due to over-running possessions...

 

[Wyvern]

Yes but the cess needs to be clear to walk along for safety reasons.

 

[The Snap]

Yes but the cess needs to be clear to walk along for safety reasons.

True. But you as well as I know that that isn't always the case .

 

[boing_uk]

I'd rather have an untidy lineside and a train running bang on time, rather than a spotless lineside but delayed train due to over-running possessions...

Who said anything about over-running possessions?

Sure a neat and tidy railway does nothing for the efficient running of a railway, but its certainly not the most cost-effective one in real terms (although granted, the way our current system is set up, it more than likely is, due to compensation payments etc).

Repeatedly visiting a site is not really the best use of manpower and resources.

This is very much like roadworks being run and is something easily equated to. Most of our roadworks on the network are run outside of peak hours; so you have your guys putting out the TM after the morning peak, starting work, taking the TM down in readiness fo the evening peak and then doing it again and again until the job is done.

Its already been proven that the most cost effective way of doing roadworks is a full blockade and throwing everything you have got at it. Unfortunately it is massively disruptive but the timescales are massively reduced. But with enough advance notice, planning and publicity, these things are quite effective.

No-one likes disruption, but instead of having a 6 hour window, give them a 10 hour window by knocking off late evening and early morning services just as an example. Fitting in renewals around train services just isnt economical in the long run, just as highway maintenance isnt economical by keeping roads open as much as possible during works.

And I seem to recall, from a long long time ago, that there was a huge thing made about clearing of waste materials from the lineside after a spate of trespass incidents where items left over from engineering works were placed on the line?

 

[Old Timer]

Very true. A tidy lineside does absolutely nothing for the efficient running of the railway. Whether it's tidy or not, it makes no difference whatsoever to train times/delays etc...

Picking materials up from the lineside and taking them away can be difficult too. If there is a wide cess where pick-up vans can drive, then it's not too bad as the materials can be taken away by road. However, if the area where the materials have been left is inaccessible by road, and only by foot, they may well need to be carted off by rail; loading up a train with waste/unused materials will be time consuming - time which is not available readily in the timetable.

I'd rather have an untidy lineside and a train running bang on time, rather than a spotless lineside but delayed train due to over-running possessions...

Thus speaks a future Network Rail engineer. And people wonder why the Infrastructure Contractors staff are electing to bale out :roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

Some track possessions seem to take an entire weekend (Wrexham/Salop) even though experts tell me the line is OK to use hours earlier, so its not just time on all occasions, I agree it looks messy no reason why not to clear it up, part of the job. Scrap is now at an all time high, surprised more is not nicked.No one cares anymore

 

[fhs man 2]

if a vandal put it on the track that could cause alot of trouble.

 

[merlodlliw]

if a vandal put it on the track that could cause alot of trouble.

fully agree, in my book rubbish & scrap are loved by vandals,remove the means of problems.

 

[Trog]

The odd bundle of pads, bag of clips, closure rail etc on the lineside are useful for maintenance and emergency use, and will eventually get used if left somewhere suitable and safe. Indeed in BR days it was normal practice locally to order an extra IBJ on jobs on CWR lines and leave it on site for the local PWSS.

But miles of unwanted new or old rail, or large piles of concrete sleepers are just a criminal waste. The trouble is that the cost of doing anything on the railway is now so high, that it just costs too much to collect spare materials, and with the closure of the CMD's there is not really anywhere to send the stuff anyway. Some materials are free issue to the contractors so they often unload stuff just in case to start with. (Network Rail maintenance can also be guilty of this).

Another source of spare sleepers is where only a part load has been used off a Salmon wagon, as the part load can not be restrapped, and there are no longer CMD depots to send the spares back to in an open. The spare sleepers will be off loaded to empty the wagon, and dumped at the line side.

 

[Old Timer]

..........Another source of spare sleepers is where only a part load has been used off a Salmon wagon, as the part load can not be restrapped, and there are no longer CMD depots to send the spares back to in an open. The spare sleepers will be off loaded to empty the wagon, and dumped at the line side.

That is a good example of avoidable waste of sleepers, wagons, and money.

I was unable to get the NR people I was working with to understand that great economies could be obtained by specifying track renewal lengths into units that would fit the full new sleeper wagon.

Where a part load is used, as Trog rightly says, we have to unload the complete wagon on site. This takes both men and machines and time. The cost of the sleepers and the extra time for the road/rail machine and men adds considerable cost to the job. A similar situation occurs when we get the Possession late and have to cut back. Again it is an example of a "hidden" cost that no-one cares about in Operations or the TOCs. The refusal of Network Rail and the TOCs to simply stop and listen to the Contractors suggestions as to how enormous sums of money could be saved is criminal.

Meaningless performance statistics and wholly unecessary and stupid "compensation" schemes to greedy and avaricous passengers continue to focus attention entirely into the wrong areas of management. Truly an Alice in Wonderland world.

We continue to watch truly staggering sums of money wasted whilst at the same time being on the receiving end of cuts which are truly damaging the Railway.

Meanwhile NR continue to reduce maintenance staff numbers and cut back on renewals whilst Infrastructure Projects continues to fatten itself in ever growing expansion. The point at which IP will have more people micro-managing than the number of Contractors personnel who are doing the work is nearly upon us.

Sadly in this Country no-one cares. The situation abroad is so vastly different.

 

[emoaconr]

I've seen a lot back home where the jointed track has been lifted in its sections (sleepers and chairs included) and deposited alongside the track. Looks like another line! :P

I think this was done earlier this year (?)

 

[moonrakerz]

Would you take your car to a garage that had old air filters, brake pads and empty, rusting GTX cans strewn all over the place or would you take it somewhere that looked clean and tidy ?

Anyone who takes pride in their work.............................

 

[Hydro]

Sometimes the rails are strategic spares. My old place used to drop 60ft of 113lb at every milepost by the mainline to ensure there was always a supply of rail within 1/4 mile when doing defects (of which there were plenty). The scrap was a problem as no one cared about it, but it started to get a lot better. Long strings of LWR are normally rails either dropped off for re-railing or the old strings awaiting cutting and scrapping. Remember clearing scrap normally means possessions, machines, time, money and manpower - with the state of maintenance today actually doing the work is more of a priority. Shame, as a lot of the stuff left at the side could be taken at the end of the job (ton bags of pads, nylons and keys) with a wee bit of planning, or be recycled for yard or siding use (sleepers, long offcuts of rail etc).

 

[boing_uk]

I can well accept the necessity for strategic spares (there was one such bit of rail sprayed up as such in Wakefield Westgate when I used to commute from there) and that they should be somewhere accessible to the PW gangs.

But what OT and Trog have said is something which I suspected. Strict adhereance to fanciful targets, the public image and other generally trivial matters blown up out of all proportions by people who have no idea about the whys and whatnots of infrastructure maintenance doesnt come as a surprise to me.

Its clearly the same breed of management style which has appeared in Highways maintenance over the last ten years or so and while we in highways are fortunate no-one has been killed yet because of it - partly because there are people such as myself who will simply refuse to do something they know is fundamentally dangerous or unlawful - it will happen eventually when someone will let something happen and there will be a big fuss, a witch-hunt, and nothing at all will change, because the engineering management will not change even though this is where the crux of the problem lies.

I suspect this will happen on the railways in the fullness of time as well.

 

[jrhilton]

This thread reminds me of all of the old track on the Shepperton branch line, particaully between Hampton and Kempton Park, the same piles have been lying there for years and years now......