Railway Enthusiasts at Stations - is a clearer policy needed?

[Bertie the bus]

The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first, but I imagine it's a lot stricter now with the See It, Say it, Sorted campaign, it's probably a lot easier to find a footbridge or road bridge that crosses desired railway line and spot from there.

It isn’t a requirement as you have already been told and your advice is stupid and could lead to people placing themselves in danger. Railways stations are generally a much safer environment than footbridges in an area the person may be unfamiliar with, especially in the dark.

 

[MG11]

It isn’t a requirement as you have already been told and your advice is stupid and could lead to people placing themselves in danger. Railways stations are generally a much safer environment than footbridges in an area the person may be unfamiliar with, especially in the dark.

If a company in charge of the site tells you to do something, then it isnanrequirement. You are on their station at the end of the day.

I appreciate that footbridges may not be as appealing, however that is not the fault of the railway. Crime in a specific area would fall under the responsibility of the local police.

 

[221129]

If a company in charge of the site tells you to do something, then it isnanrequirement. You are on their station at the end of the day.

I appreciate that footbridges may not be as appealing, however that is not the fault of the railway. Crime in a specific area would fall under the responsibility of the local police.

Take this from someone who actually works for a TOC at a large station and which serves EMT stations... It is NOT a requirement. It is a request at best.

 

[MG11]

Oh and look, the National Rail website says the same thing as me, under the heading Guidelines*.

Guidelines for rail enthusiasts
Advice for Rail Enthusiasts visiting stations on the National Rail network

Introduction
All Britain's Train Operating Companies and Network Rail welcome rail enthusiasts to their stations. The following guidelines are designed to ensure you have a safe and enjoyable experience in the pursuit of your interest.

Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities. You may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms.

 

[yorkie]

If a company in charge of the site tells you to do something, then it isnanrequirement. You are on their station at the end of the day.

I am struggling to understand what point it is you are trying to make? You said "The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first" but that isn't the case, and you were called out for it. You later appear to have changed your view to say it is a current "requirement" but that isn't actually the case. The page you linked to, relating to "Rail Enthusiast Photography at Stations" says "you may be asked to sign in at gated stations" (my emphasis), the suggestion being that if you arrive by a mode other than by rail, with no intention to take a train, you may be asked to sign in and then be allowed through the ticket gates without a ticket. This is rather different to the OP, who was about to board a train when he was stopped from "taking photographs without permission".

You seem to change the goalposts and cause confusion. Just accept the fact that 221129 was right and save us all the hassle..!

Oh and look, the National Rail website says the same thing as me, under the heading Guidelines*.

I think you need to consider what you are quoting.

...Advice for Rail Enthusiasts visiting stations on the National Rail network...

...Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence...

This is laughable. Arguably I count as a "rail enthusiast" and yet I never inform the Duty Station Manager of my presence (whether that be before I enter the platform or not).

In fact, half the time I am arriving by train so I cannot fail to be in breach of this guideline if you take it literally.

Given that they're hidden away and worded in a way that clearly does not intend to apply to rail passengers like me, or the OP, I think it's an irrelevance!

Note that you have not quoted any requirements anyway.

 

[221129]

The clue is in the word GUIDELINES. It is not a requirement merely a request.

 

[AlterEgo]

None of those are requirements.

There’s no *requirement* on me to do anything if I want to make a video or take a picture on a station.

 

[MG11]

I am struggling to understand what point it is you are trying to make? You said "The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first" but that isn't the case, and you were called out for it. You later appear to have changed your view to say it is a current "requirement" but that isn't actually the case. The page you linked to, relating to "Rail Enthusiast Photography at Stations" says "you may be asked to sign in at gated stations" (my emphasis), the suggestion being that if you arrive by a mode other than by rail, with no intention to take a train, you may be asked to sign in and then be allowed through the ticket gates without a ticket. This is rather different to the OP, who was about to board a train when he was stopped from "taking photographs without permission".

You seem to change the goalposts and cause confusion. Just accept the fact that 221129 was right and save us all the hassle..!

This is laughable. Arguably I count as a "rail enthusiast" and yet I never inform the Duty Station Manager of my presence (whether that be before I enter the platform or not).

In fact, half the time I am arriving by train so I cannot fail to be in breach of this guideline if you take it literally.

Given that they're hidden away and worded in a way that clearly does not intend to apply to rail passengers like me, or the OP, I think it's an irrelevance!

Note that you have not quoted any requirements anyway.

You can choose to interpret the *may part how you wish but the famous video at Macclesfield proves otherwise, as does the Upminster video on Youtube. It's worth noting that Virgin Trains fully defended their colleague who said "you are not allowed to do that unless you've asked for permission".

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Different if the OP was acting foolishly or suspiciously but as George166 says, quite why a cleaner would object; usually cleaners don't take any notice.

 

[Clip]

Different if the OP was acting foolishly or suspiciously but as George166 says, quite why a cleaner would object; usually cleaners don't take any notice.

But isnt it good that they did?

I think MG11's intentions here are good but the terminology that he has used have now been picked up on to tear him apart with it, which is rather unfair.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You can choose to interpret the *may part how you wish but the famous video at Macclesfield proves otherwise, as does the Upminster video on Youtube. It's worth noting that Virgin Trains fully defended their colleague who said "you are not allowed to do that unless you've asked for permission".

I remember now being asked at Brighton station recently whether or not I was photographing or filming. Maybe staff get more jumpy if they see enthusiasts with camcorders...?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So are people taking "selfies", which young people tend to do at every turn, going to get challenged?

They'll be let off the hook, as they'll claim that they didn't know about railway protocols or what the yellow line means on the platform. Some young ones think that rail enthusiasts are grey old men who are stood on a platform with a tripod taking photos - they don't seem to realise that people around they're own age do it as well.

 

[yorkie]

You can choose to interpret the *may part how you wish but the famous video at Macclesfield proves otherwise, as does the Upminster video on Youtube. It's worth noting that Virgin Trains fully defended their colleague who said "you are not allowed to do that unless you've asked for permission".

Macclesfield? I am sure Virgin backed down in the end. As for Upminster, the person who was harassed by a rouge security guard got a free cab-ride in the locomotive Sarah Siddons, as an apology from LU.

Next claim please....

So are people taking "selfies", which young people tend to do at every turn, going to get challenged?

The Guidelines for Rail Enthusiasts only apply if they happen to also be enthusiasts

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But isnt it good that they did?

I don't know as I wasn't there to see the OP's actions/demeanour. But personally, I would consider it none of the cleaner's business unless the OP was acting in a manner to attract attention

 

[brick60000]

This doesn't, however, give staff the right to make up their own rules and procedures just because they feel like being difficult.

Indeed not, and it does feel a lot of the time like this is what happens, with the totally inconsistent approach from station to station.

With all due respect anyone with an interest in railways should really know about network rail and their 'major stations' it' been a concept since railtrack I do believe.

You'e right the manager should'e known better but if you had followed the advice and signed in at reception (no idea which of the 3 toys managers stopped you) but at least you would'e been granted permission and hopefully got a visitors badue to show the cleaner which would've let you carry on.

As for snow Hill the station operator will have the same policy so again if you had let them know you were doin a bit of photting then I don' see any issues with carrying on by showing your badge to any staff members.

The station in question (Snow Hill) isn't managed by Network Rail, so if it is these alone which are deemed major stations then the requirement to check in is null and void at any other stations!

My issue at Snow Hill was, the barriers were open, and I was catching a train anyway. I'd set up my tripod inside (on knee height setting, taking up no more room than the rucksack I had similarly placed on the ground) whilst the new liveried 172 waited time in platform 3. I was stood on an area of the platform behind the starting signal for platform 2 towards Moor Street (if you're familiar with the layout of Snow Hill, this is a public area, as is used to access the station lifts - the full width of the island platform beyond the starters is public) so was not obstructing any passenger flow whatsoever.

I'm not actually able to find any TOC specific guidelines since WMT took over the franchise.

So are people taking "selfies", which young people tend to do at every turn, going to get challenged?

This is the point I made to their Twitter team earlier - it's just not enforceable in this day and age!

I've seen people act stupidly and even put themselves at risk, especially if there is a kettle passing through. Common sense seems a rare commodity to many.

I work on a heritage railway and totally sympathise with this - arguably enthusiasts can be willing to put themselves in more danger thinking 25mph is far more safe than 125...

The guidelines appear to be aimed at people who arrive by means other than by train and who hang around for ages with no intention to get a train. They do not appear to be aimed at passengers who simply take photos while changing trains.

Quite so - it would be counter productive to do this. By the time I'd signed in I'd be going to sign out again!

I am struggling to understand what point it is you are trying to make? You said "The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first" but that isn't the case, and you were called out for it. You later appear to have changed your view to say it is a current "requirement" but that isn't actually the case. The page you linked to, relating to "Rail Enthusiast Photography at Stations" says "you may be asked to sign in at gated stations" (my emphasis), the suggestion being that if you arrive by a mode other than by rail, with no intention to take a train, you may be asked to sign in and then be allowed through the ticket gates without a ticket. This is rather different to the OP, who was about to board a train when he was stopped from "taking photographs without permission".

You seem to change the goalposts and cause confusion. Just accept the fact that 221129 was right and save us all the hassle..!

This is laughable. Arguably I count as a "rail enthusiast" and yet I never inform the Duty Station Manager of my presence (whether that be before I enter the platform or not).

In fact, half the time I am arriving by train so I cannot fail to be in breach of this guideline if you take it literally.

Given that they're hidden away and worded in a way that clearly does not intend to apply to rail passengers like me, or the OP, I think it's an irrelevance!

Note that you have not quoted any requirements anyway.

This seemingly shows how the guidelines are rather vague and not overly helpful to enthusiasts in understanding what is actually required of them!!

I don't know as I wasn't there to see the OP's actions/demeanour. But personally, I would consider it none of the cleaner's business unless the OP was acting in a manner to attract attention

Simply walking about, taking photos!

I do think the replies to this thread show the many different interpretations of the guidelines and show the need for a more modern approach that is far more consistent than rules applied today.

I, for one, would be far more willing to sign in to a station were it not for the fear of being told to go away / that I was not welcome / that I couldn't take pictures and the resulting faff that ensues. 16 year old me was once made to watch a safety briefing at Leeds, which I found quite laffable, given no passengers that are on or about the station are required to do this. I understand it's compulsory for all visitors, etc., which is what you become when you sign in, but to a 16 year old?!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Simply walking about, taking photos!

I, for one, would be far more willing to sign in to a station were it not for the fear of being told to go away / that I was not welcome / that I couldn't take pictures and the resulting faff that ensues. 16 year old me was once made to watch a safety briefing at Leeds, which I found quite laffable, given no passengers that are on or about the station are required to do this. I understand it's compulsory for all visitors, etc., which is what you become when you sign in, but to a 16 year old?!

Young people could be seen as easy targets or not mature enough to understand the dangers. I was once given a safety briefing at London Bridge which I was perfectly happy to partake in - despite the fact I've been around the railway for as long as I can remember. Sometimes you just have to play ball

 

[Bevan Price]

Perhaps the cleaner thought you were taking some photos of her ??

Although a rather different situation, and not involving rail staff, I had just photographed a 47 at Crewe when a girl demanded to know why I had photographed her. She would not believe that I was photographing the loco, and only went away when i got irritated and asked "Why would anyone want to photograph you" ?

 

[AlterEgo]

I haven’t ever been asked not to film when I’ve been on my own. I’ve got the benefit of being white, in my early 30s, and I carry myself with confidence.

I’m sure a lot of unconscious bias is at play with assessing the risks posed by people with cameras.

 

[philthetube]

With all due respect anyone with an interest in railways should really know about network rail and their 'major stations' it' been a concept since railtrack I do believe.

You'e right the manager should'e known better but if you had followed the advice and signed in at reception (no idea which of the 3 toys managers stopped you) but at least you would'e been granted permission and hopefully got a visitors badue to show the cleaner which would've let you carry on.

As for snow Hill the station operator will have the same policy so again if you had let them know you were doin a bit of photting then I don' see any issues with carrying on by showing your badge to any staff members.

It' important that people as well as staff members knows their responsibilities and it seems in this case you both were in the wrong but one hasn' posted their disgust at their own lack of knowledge about being on the railway

I am not sure if you are insulting managers or having spell check issues.

 

[trash80]

I'd set up my tripod inside (on knee height setting, taking up no more room than the rucksack I had similarly placed on the ground) whilst the new liveried 172 waited time in platform 3. I was stood on an area of the platform behind the starting signal for platform 2 towards Moor Street (if you're familiar with the layout of Snow Hill, this is a public area, as is used to access the station lifts - the full width of the island platform beyond the starters is public) so was not obstructing any passenger flow whatsoever.

Probably your tripod that caused it, in someone's mind you went over the "line", maybe subconsciously thinking you were doing pro/commercial photography.

 

[whhistle]

This doesn't, however, give staff the right to make up their own rules and procedures just because they feel like being difficult.

No but if you annoy them, then they will find a way to get you out.

I mean, how would you like it if someone came into your place of work waving paper about citing some regulations? You're effectively being told how to do your job.

Yes, you could say "well [the station] should be following the rules" <-- no business/person follows all procedures correctly at all times.

Get the station team on your side and they'll fall over themselves to help. Poop them off and your time there will be made difficult.

 

[Clip]

I don't know as I wasn't there to see the OP's actions/demeanour. But personally, I would consider it none of the cleaner's business unless the OP was acting in a manner to attract attention

Cleaning staff can be the eyes and ears of the railway to just like the railway wants passengers and enthusiasts to keep an eye out - i think theres a campaign about it being played over tannoys network wide.

Indeed not, and it does feel a lot of the time like this is what happens, with the totally inconsistent approach from station to station.



The station in question (Snow Hill) isn't managed by Network Rail, so if it is these alone which are deemed major stations then the requirement to check in is null and void at any other stations!

My issue at Snow Hill was, the barriers were open, and I was catching a train anyway. I'd set up my tripod inside (on knee height setting, taking up no more room than the rucksack I had similarly placed on the ground) whilst the new liveried 172 waited time in platform 3. I was stood on an area of the platform behind the starting signal for platform 2 towards Moor Street (if you're familiar with the layout of Snow Hill, this is a public area, as is used to access the station lifts - the full width of the island platform beyond the starters is public) so was not obstructing any passenger flow whatsoever.

I'm not actually able to find any TOC specific guidelines since WMT took over the franchise.

I think you are being either purposely obtuse with how i presented 'some' information to you previously or you are just being wilfully ignorant about it to try and deflect from the fact that you didnt follow the information you 'waved in someones face'

I added the NR information to show that the guidelines cover there also - im aware that Snow Hill isnt one of their stations and just because you cant find the information on their website yet - then follow the BTP advice too - its not hard to understand yet you simply focus on the NR Major stations part which simply baffles and intrigues me in equal measure

I am not sure if you are insulting managers or having spell check issues.

Fat fingers on me phone

 

[theageofthetra]

I don't know as I wasn't there to see the OP's actions/demeanour. But personally, I would consider it none of the cleaner's business unless the OP was acting in a manner to attract attention

It is absolutely their business. They are as much the eyes and ears of the railway as anyone else and as part of their training they are told to report suspicious activity.

 

[theageofthetra]

No but if you annoy them, then they will find a way to get you out.

I mean, how would you like it if someone came into your place of work waving paper about citing some regulations? You're effectively being told how to do your job.

Yes, you could say "well [the station] should be following the rules" <-- no business/person follows all procedures correctly at all times.

Get the station team on your side and they'll fall over themselves to help. Poop them off and your time there will be made difficult.

Absolutely. You are on someone elses property so learn some basic social skills towards those entrusted with its safe operation.

 

[Dhassell]

I think in most places staff use common sense. Sometimes you do get the odd ones which go beyond to enforce their rules of getting you to sign in, most notably for me was Marylebone. Clapham has always been fine for me, never had an issue there myself! I have never really had any issues at any stations, the most I have ever had was at Marylebone where the bloke tried to get us to sign in, we just told him we would be moving on shortly and he left us be. The other time was somewhere I can't remember, security came down and asked what we where up to, he was happy once we had explained what we where up to. I expect in quite a few stations, the station manager probably doesn't care if there are enthusiasts on the platform, as they know they are no harm the majority of the time, and if action needs to be taken for certain individuals it can be taken, It just needs a bit of common sense by everyone imo.

 

[BestWestern]

It is absolutely their business. They are as much the eyes and ears of the railway as anyone else and as part of their training they are told to report suspicious activity.

Indeed, but there is a difference between being alert and reporting something to the responsible staff in an approriate manner, and accosting a member of the public, spouting made-up rules, shouting and waving a broom! If the cleaners at Clapham are instructed to approach and challenge then fair enough, although there a ways of doing it in a professional manner, but if not it should simply be reported for immediate investigation by an appropriate member of TOC or NR staff. Equipping cleaners with radios is a good move.

 

[Marklund]

I'd set up my tripod

So are people taking "selfies", which young people tend to do at every turn, going to get challenged?

This is the point I made to their Twitter team earlier - it's just not enforceable in this day and age!

Not many selfie takers use tripods. Self moving bi-pods maybe, but no, not tripods.

 

[robbeech]

It’s not strictly necessary to “sign in” but it *may* avoid issues such as the OP experienced if you make staff aware of what you’re doing.

For individual photos with a phone I agree it’s hardly likely to be an issue. If you’re going to stand on the end of a platform for hours with a DSLR it’s a different matter (people standing in odd places, on bits of the platform where no trains stop, can cause concern for obvious reasons).

Exactly this.
There’s nothing wrong with any of it but it says you should inform someone, sign in, get a pass, whatever they expect you to do locally, people should help by doing this where possible.
They’re not going to chase after people taking a picture of their friend next to a train on their phone but setting up a tripod and staying there for an afternoon is different. As we see here, nobody really has a major problem providing you follow protocol.

 

[robbeech]

Not many selfie takers use tripods. Self moving bi-pods maybe, but no, not tripods.

I think I might use this term.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Probably your tripod that caused it, in someone's mind you went over the "line", maybe subconsciously thinking you were doing pro/commercial photography.

I could dine out on the time at Woking waiting for 4472, when i was ESCORTED off the station as my tripod leg was on the yellow line by 2cms

1093"]Probably your tripod that caused it, in someone's mind you went over the "line", maybe subconsciously thinking you were doing pro/commercial photography.[/QUOTE]