Railway worker suspended after rescuing disabled woman

[bb21]

We're just going round in circles, there is a clear view down the line

I do not have a major issue with the guy's actions morally. I think most people in those situations would feel a moral obligation to try and help the woman in whatever way they can. I am not going to comment on whether disciplinary actions need to be taken as it depends on too many factors which we are not aware of.

What I do take exception to is your reasoning, your assertion that it was probably safe as they would have probably rescued her before any train arrives. Your analysis of the risks involved comes across as being overly simplistic and the potential difficulties that can be encountered is hugely underestimated.

Had your argument gone down the line of "it was a split-second decision and most people would have felt morally right to do what this guy did at that moment in time" then I would not have a problem with your reasons whatsoever.

 

[Antman]

Have you ever done a First Aid course?
Have you ever tried to lift an old lady with a broken hip?

Sorry, but anything like this is going to take well over 30secs, even in an emergency!

Well clearly these four men did lift this lady

Sorry no further comment from me, this is getting silly now

 

[bb21]

Have you ever done a First Aid course?
Have you ever tried to lift an old lady with a broken hip?

Sorry, but anything like this is going to take well over 30secs, even in an emergency!

Absolutely. It is very easy to sit in front of a computer and say it shouldn't take more than 30 seconds. When you actually practise it, it can come as quite a shock to many people how little time 30 seconds is. Having more hands does not always make the job any easier.

 

[A-driver]

Well clearly these four men did lift this lady

Sorry no further comment from me, this is getting silly now

It is getting silly now, although I feel it started getting silly when you started saying that the risks were far more minimal than they actually are making it clear you had little idea what you were on about!

I have no problems with the actions of this member of staff as I know that ones thought process during such an incident can be very different from what they perhaps should be and none of us know exactly what happened or what safeguards and training he had in place but I feel once again another railUK thread had gone down the road of those with little idea what they are talking about attempting to argue, quite frankly, non existent points!

 

[KA4C]

It is getting silly now, although I feel it started getting silly when you started saying that the risks were far more minimal than they actually are making it clear you had little idea what you were on about!

I have no problems with the actions of this member of staff as I know that ones thought process during such an incident can be very different from what they perhaps should be and none of us know exactly what happened or what safeguards and training he had in place but I feel once again another railUK thread had gone down the road of those with little idea what they are talking about attempting to argue, quite frankly, non existent points!

Well said

 

[Clip]

Silly me, I don't have the signallers number stored on my mobile. As others have asked, what if this happened at an unstaffed station? What does Joe Public do then?

Sorry to drag this post up from earlier in the thread but this question makes no sense whatsoever.


If it was an unstaffed station then there would be no staff member to go on the track and get suspended would there?

 

[KA4C]

Sorry to drag this post up from earlier in the thread but this question makes no sense whatsoever.


If it was an unstaffed station then there would be no staff member to go on the track and get suspended would there?

Think he was referring to Joe Public and not railway staff, to be honest, he has gone round in so many circles and away from the point that he keeps loosing me

 

[Antman]

Think he was referring to Joe Public and not railway staff, to be honest, he has gone round in so many circles and away from the point that he keeps loosing me

Thats exactly what I meant.

No staff to ask so Joe Public would have had to use their own common sense......the rule book cannot legislate for every eventuality

 

[Carlisle]

Don't the rules say simply something like "if you don't have a valid PTS certificate you can't go on the track unaccompanied,"if you do and your seen your probably in deep ####

 

[KA4C]

Thats exactly what I meant.

No staff to ask so Joe Public would have had to use their own common sense......the rule book cannot legislate for every eventuality

Well, in the case of Joe Public, it wouldn't, would it?

but in this case, it wasn't Joe Public, was it?

 

[Antman]

Well, in the case of Joe Public, it wouldn't, would it?

but in this case, it wasn't Joe Public, was it?

Pardon?

I'm really not going through all this again, some people may consult rule books before acting, most of us thankfullu use our own common sense

 

[Oswyntail]

Pardon?

I'm really not going through all this again, some people may consult rule books before acting, most of us thankfullu use our own common sense

I suspect that good old "common sense" has exacerbated more injuries over the years than any other factor in First Aid.

 

[ushawk]

Pardon?

I'm really not going through all this again, some people may consult rule books before acting, most of us thankfullu use our own common sense

Which breaks regulations and laws. Christ, you wouldnt last long in a Railway job with an attitude like that. Stuff the rule lets just do what I like :roll:

This user is the same person who was winding people up in the recent thread regarding the recent small fire onboard a SE train at Hither Green. Seems they are deliberately taking the anti-railway side to be provocative to people on here.

 

[Clip]

Thats exactly what I meant.

No staff to ask so Joe Public would have had to use their own common sense......the rule book cannot legislate for every eventuality

You are right, of course, the rule book cannot legislate for every eventuality and if the public want to do something then they can.


But you are missing the whole point of this thread. This is about a member of staff, not passengers or anyone else so everything you have written is null and void and I fear that you are just arguing the toss for the sake or arguing as you seemingly have no grasp of the thread let alone railway policies and procedures.

Instead of rambling on about what the public might do, try sticking to the facts about the staff member.

 

[Antman]

You are right, of course, the rule book cannot legislate for every eventuality and if the public want to do something then they can.


But you are missing the whole point of this thread. This is about a member of staff, not passengers or anyone else so everything you have written is null and void and I fear that you are just arguing the toss for the sake or arguing as you seemingly have no grasp of the thread let alone railway policies and procedures.

Instead of rambling on about what the public might do, try sticking to the facts about the staff member.

The member of staff used his common sense instead of faffing about with policies and procedures.......what is this world coming too:roll:

Now if you don't mind I'll leave it at that

 

[A-driver]

The member of staff used his common sense instead of faffing about with policies and procedures.......what is this world coming too:roll:

Now if you don't mind I'll leave it at that

Yes, I would leave it at that if I were you as once again you are just showing that you know absolutely nothing about what you are trying to argue!

Keep digging that hole for yourself!

 

[Flamingo]

"The Rules", as some posters on this thread don't seem to know or care, have evolved over 150+ years of operation around one of the most intricate and dangerous infrastructures. They give procedures to be followed by everybody, in every situation. They have been analysed after pretty much every incident, and ammended accordingly (the changes in emphesis following the unfortunate incident in Liverpool are evidence of that). Every member of staff is trained, briefed, updated, and examined regularly on all aspects of the rulebook that apply to their role.

Does anybody really think that this is the first person to ever fall off a platform? Their are procedures in place to deal with this situation, that have been tested.

The member of staff has been suspended while an investigation is made into whether the procedures were followed, and if not why not.

My personal opinion is that I can't see how four amateurs could have safely evacuated a casualty with a fractured hip off a railway line, even if the trains had been stopped, and if it turns out the member of staff invited the members of the public onto the track without good reason (they happened to be three passing Dr's or paramedics, for example, and it had already been established that trains had stopped running) then they are going to have more than one interview without coffee.

I think it's safe enough to ignore the rantings of Brother Crow. I've seen enough half-truths peddled by the RMT recently to discredit most of what is said, unfortunatly.

 

[Clip]

The member of staff used his common sense instead of faffing about with policies and procedures.......what is this world coming too:roll:

Now if you don't mind I'll leave it at that

You really should have done that a few pages ago.

 

[Tomnick]

Now if you don't mind I'll leave it at that

Probably best, it's getting hard to hear you from the bottom of that ever deepening hole .

My main complaint is against the suggestion that it's ok to ignore the established procedure to make an emergency call to get trains stopped. I've no real issue with anyone who assesses the situation and decides to then put themselves in danger, as long as they do as much as they're able to stop the job first (and thus remove the danger for all concerned). I do, though, think that some on here have rather understated the risks associated with anyone walking around on the operational trainset.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Struck oil yet Steve?


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Prairie_5542]

Would the outcome have been different if a Policeman had jumped down and intervened? After all they are there to protect life and property.

 

[Carlisle]

"The Rules", as some posters on this thread don't seem to know or care, have evolved over 150+ years of operation around one of the most intricate and dangerous infrastructures. They give procedures to be followed by everybody, in every situation. They have been analysed after pretty much every incident, and ammended accordingly (the changes in emphesis following the unfortunate incident in Liverpool are evidence of that). Every member of staff is trained, briefed, updated, and examined regularly on all aspects of the rulebook that apply to their role.

Does anybody really think that this is the first person to ever fall off a platform? Their are procedures in place to deal with this situation, that have been tested.

The member of staff has been suspended while an investigation is made into whether the procedures were followed, and if not why not.

My personal opinion is that I can't see how four amateurs could have safely evacuated a casualty with a fractured hip off a railway line, and if it turns out the member of staff invited the members of the public onto the track without good reason (they happened to be three passing Dr's or paramedics, for example, and it had already been established that trains had stopped running) then they are going to have more than one interview without coffee.

I think it's safe enough to ignore the rantings of Brother Crow. I've seen enough half-truths peddled by the RMT recently to discredit most of what is said, unfortunatly.

In the past as you mention history this episode would have been unlikely to end up like this because most station staff used to be trained up in track safety procedure anyway as part of their job for litter clearing or carrying parcels etc

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The member of staff used his common sense instead of faffing about with policies and procedures.......what is this world coming too:roll:....

....I'm really not going through all this again, some people may consult rule books before acting, most of us thankfullu use our own common sense

Staff are not expected to consult a rulebook, they are not expected to rely on 'common sense' (something that is rapidly becoming a rare commodity it seems), staff are trained on and expected to know and act on the rules that apply to their job. It is that simple.

Any station based employee, be it platform, gateline, manager or ticket office, should know that, when it comes to venturing onto a live rail enviroment, rule one is "You don't do it".

The railway has procedures for a reason, they are for everybody's safety. The people on the track endangered the life of themselves and they endangered the welfare of the person who fell on the track (unless they are a qualified doctor).

If indeed it is a low speed, dead straight section of track with a train, 'minutes away', slowing for the station, there is no reason why trains could not safely have been stopped, the signalman informed and an ambulance called before even thinking about going on the track, nevermind moving a person with unknown injuries.

 

[A-driver]

Would the outcome have been different if a Policeman had jumped down and intervened? After all they are there to protect life and property.

I may be wrong here but as far as I'm aware a warrant card dosnt prevent you from being hit by 500tons of train...as I say, I may have that wrong though?

 

[jon91]

I may be wrong here but as far as I'm aware a warrant card dosnt prevent you from being hit by 500tons of train...as I say, I may have that wrong though?

Physics would agree, I wonder if Steve heard that down in Australia...

 

[Trog]

As someone who has been caught working between platforms lifting and packing with Duff Jacks when an express missed a TSR, and came through the site at 80MPH. I can assure you that when your body is red lined on full adrenalin boost, getting onto a platform in 2 or 3 seconds is very easy indeed.

I have also been involved in carrying an adult man in a wheelchair from one platform to another, when a barrow crossing had been lifted while we were re-railing. With four fit blokes available it was a very quick and easy operation although I seem to remember him being somewhat ungrateful for our help. I think he had expected us to wheel him to the end of the platform and lift him over the gap in the barrow crossing rather than just lift him straight across the gap between the two platforms.

In the case being discussed it all comes down to the details which we do not know.
How long it would take to contact the controlling signal box, or if that was even reasonably possible? Against how long it would take to clear the victim from the track, compared to the available sighting distance, the availability of someone to imitate a certain continental army on the platform end, et c, et c.
Until we know all that detail most of the above is pointless speculation.

On site the man on the scene would have to decide what was the best thing to do at the time, and unless he did something extremely stupid I would expect a decent boss to back him up as doing his best in an emergency situation, even if hindsight suggested a better way of doing things.

 

[Flamingo]

In the past as you mention history this episode would have been unlikely to end up like this because most station staff used to be trained up in track safety procedure anyway as part of their job for litter clearing or carrying parcels etc

Well, as we don't know what happened, just a one-sided sensationalistic newspaper story and an equally one-sided and sensationalistic statement from the RMT, there is no way of knowing if this would have happened in the past or not.

 

[KA4C]

Pardon?

I'm really not going through all this again, some people may consult rule books before acting, most of us thankfullu use our own common sense

I take it you are not "on the job" then

PS common sense aint as common as you might think
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The member of staff used his common sense instead of faffing about with policies and procedures.......what is this world coming too:roll:

Now if you don't mind I'll leave it at that

I would if I were you, While you are having a break, have a look into what it takes to be a railwayman
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I may be wrong here but as far as I'm aware a warrant card dosnt prevent you from being hit by 500tons of train...as I say, I may have that wrong though?

As far as I'm aware, the are trained to get line blocked via their control room and NR control, Rather a long winded procedure, but they do have a process

 

[Tomnick]

In the past as you mention history this episode would have been unlikely to end up like this because most station staff used to be trained up in track safety procedure anyway as part of their job for litter clearing or carrying parcels etc

The station staff on here might put me right, but I thought many were still trained to do so, without requiring PTS? The rule book certainly says that it's ok as long as they've been given training specific to that location.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I'm aware, the are trained to get line blocked via their control room and NR control, Rather a long winded procedure, but they do have a process

I read of one recent incident which the local police promptly turned up to deal with. The first emergency call was made, some minutes later, by a driver who'd arrived at the location in question to find police officers in the four foot ahead of him. They might be trained to follow the above procedures, but perhaps understandably, unfamiliarity might be an issue.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Confirmation that power is off and trains stopped should, ideally, be gained verbally from the NR Rail Incident Officer. Emergency Services staff should only take permission from the RIO, and nobody else. A safe system of work should be agreed with them, and all communications with Network Rail should be via them.

If a RIO is not immediatly available, then confirmation can be sought from Network Rail Control via our Control. Even if there are platform staff or whoever telling us that power is off/trains stopped; if there is no RIO then confirmation has to be gotten from NR Control.

There have been a number of incidents where trains have not been stopped, or power has been left on - some our fault, and some Network Rail's fault.