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Recovery and Prosecution Letter

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jon0844

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If you can also give the details of the TVM used (and the time/date) which can also be checked (see my assumption above) then I think you're in a very strong position with confirmation from the bank too. I doubt they'd actually check, but if you've done all your homework and can put it all down on paper in a logical fashion, there's less chance of them just thinking you're trying it on.

Of course, they could be mean and prosecute anyway - but I think if you write a firm, but very polite (don't go off one, even if you think it was totally unfair), you might well appeal to their good natured side. Every company has one.. I find the key is always to be nice to the person you're writing to, so they side with you. Thus, even though the company has done you wrong, you're absolutely not holding the person dealing with the complaint responsible.

Good luck!
 
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silencio

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To be fair, I want to tear them a new... But maybe that's for a separate complaints letter after i get an outcome.

Ive got the time authorised to the second so they can trace that to the machine. In terms of details of the TVM what should I be looking for? There's 2 machines in Victoria, it was the one on the right. Will it have some sort of serial/ID number I can look for?
 

Mark_H

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To be fair, I want to tear them a new... But maybe that's for a separate complaints letter after i get an outcome.

Yes - bear in mind that the department you are currently dealing with are only interested in whether you have technically committed an offense or not, and being harsh may cause them to tl;dr your letter. Play nice to avoid the fine, then write to customer services about the lengths you had to go to to deal with this.
 

jon0844

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To be fair, I want to tear them a new... But maybe that's for a separate complaints letter after i get an outcome.

Ive got the time authorised to the second so they can trace that to the machine. In terms of details of the TVM what should I be looking for? There's 2 machines in Victoria, it was the one on the right. Will it have some sort of serial/ID number I can look for?

I am sure there will be some ID number, but maybe not that obvious (it could be as tiny as a small printed barcode or label stuck to the side). You can't go far wrong with a photo of the machine though, and perhaps checking who makes it (that will be on the machine somewhere, say bottom right) so you could do some research online.

I think a photo and description of the location should suffice. Part of your 'appeal' is to show you can provide all the necessary detail to support your claim. They'll have to decide if they really want to take the time to verify that, or just take your word for it. That's why if you're polite, I expect they're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.
 

michael769

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Play nice to avoid the fine, then write to customer services about the lengths you had to go to to deal with this.

I would agree with this. Many guilty people try to escape prosecution by muddying the issue with a complaint (it rarely works) and you would risk being lumped into that category and yoru complaint being ignored.

One the issue has been resolved (hopefully in your favour) you will be able to complain about the position you were put in from a much stronger footing.
 

silencio

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Thanks everyone. Gonna knock up some food then knock up a letter. Any volunteers to help proof read/check the content? Would be most appreciated.

Ive been down to the station and got the machine number and the name of an employee that provided it. He advised they dont keep a daily activities log of the machines though.

Oh and do you think it's worth forcing their hand on settling this by enclosing a cheque for the amount of the ticket,£4.10?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Im almost finished with my draft, would one of you lovely people please volunteer to scrutinise it for me before I send it? Ill have it finished just after 8.Thanks.
 
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silencio

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Seriously, are they mental? Intent of avoiding the fare?:

C360_2013-04-04-16-46-45.jpg


I might actually fight this. They have not responded to anything on the letter I have sent them. Additionally they are wanting to charge a fare higher than the actual fare (£4.10).
 

michael769

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Oh dear look at the top of that letter.

What part of the RoR, authorises the issue of a Fixed Penalty Notice?
 

jon0844

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Oh dear.

I do still think that a sensible move might still be to pay whatever they ask and then write a letter of complaint AFTERWARDS, escalating it up towards management if necessary. You have a number of valid defences, or certainly enough reason that they should have used discretion (which TOCs are always very keen to assure customers that their staff have).

What you want to avoid is them taking it further, although they could be bluffing I suppose - if they know their case is weak. Nevertheless, I'd not call them on that - and you can try and get your money back (and maybe some more to cover the time and effort) without it hanging over your head.

At least we can now see first-hand what the letters look like, which pretty much confirms what I've suspected in that Northern has effectively created its own £80 penalty fare, presumably to match that in operation in London. Except you pay the fare on top, and don't get 50% off if you pay in 14 or 21 days...
 

silencio

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Too many acronyms. Sorry, what are ToCs and RoRs?

Is this worth dragging down to a Citizens Advice Bureau and discussing further or would this be too specific for somebody to give advice on?

This whole thing is a joke. A very bad joke.
 

island

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TOC = Train Operating Company
RoRA = Regulation of Railways Act, 1889
 

silencio

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Thanks island.

So, would the following actually help me (the part in bold):

(3)If any person—(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

With a letter from my bank proving the authorisation codes Ive already provided, certainly this shows there was not intent to avoid payment of fare at all.
 

jkdd77

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Although it is not quite the same thing, I nonetheless recall from a post on MSE that it appears that one person paid a "byelaw 14" fixed penalty for parking "under protest", waited six months (to avoid the possibility of prosecution), and then sued in county court for their money back, which was settled out of court with the TOC paying up.

I can't now find the actual thread in question, but have found a reference to the said thread in the final post of this thread by 'IainMcCulloch': http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4175183

The claim was seemingly made on the basis that:
the amount was paid unwillingly and under protest solely due to the threat of prosecution, and without consideration for the payment;
(unlike with penalty fares, which have statutory backing) there was not a statutory basis for the imposition of the so-called "fixed penalty";
(unlike with bank charges) there was not a valid contractual basis for the imposition of the "fixed penalty";
the "fixed penalty" was not, and was not claimed to be, a genuine pre-estimate of the TOC's losses or administration costs, but rather was extortionate and designed to punish, and English common law does not generally allow the imposition of penalty charges.

It may be worth the OP trying to send a pm to the MSE poster in question, with a view to possibly going down the same route. However, this post is made for information only, and is neither a recommendation nor an endorsement of this approach.

Health warning: One passenger tried this with an actual penalty fare, (i.e. paying up under protest and then suing afterwards), the claim was fully defended by the TOC, and dismissed by the court, leaving the claimant out of pocket.
 
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soil

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I would pay the bill and then sue for its return, as jkdd77 suggests.

At the moment, Northern have the initiative, as this is a criminal matter.

As a civil matter, you will then have the initiative, as it would be costly for them to even defend the case, and the penalties for your losing would only be £25 (the court fee).

The cost/benefit of defending the criminal case is poor, as you have already expended a good deal of time and they clearly don't care because they are able to act in this bullying manner with the backing of the threat of criminal penalties.

Therefore it is likely to be good time after bad in sending them any further correspondence in relation to this. Pay, wait a few months, and then sue.
 

michael769

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Thanks island.

So, would the following actually help me (the part in bold):



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5

With a letter from my bank proving the authorisation codes Ive already provided, certainly this shows there was not intent to avoid payment of fare at all.

Quite possibly. It is for the prosecution to prove intent to avoid payment, which can be done by drawing inferences from your actions.

Obviously the defense is also entitled to ask the court to draw inferences from your actions, and indeed any other relevant evidence provided, that cast reasonable doubt on the inferences the prosecution wold wish the court to draw.

The decision as to challenging this in court is one only you can make, but you must bear in mind that if you lose as well as the fine and costs, you will gain a criminal record for a crime of dishonesty, something that has the potential to have a negative impact on your future employment prospects. You may wish to ask a solicitor to review your case and provide an impartial view on how strong a footing you are on.
 

Tibbs

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I would advise this as well - I got thousands back from my bank taking them to small claims. It didn't actually go to court, but it got close, the cheque arrives about 4 days before the court date.
 

michael769

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I can see the merit in that approach as you are only risking your money and not your good name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would not bother waiting though. Issue the LBA (Letter before Action) demanding the return of the charge, the day after you pay, while the iron is ot.
 
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island

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Thing is they could then refund the charge and issue proceedings in magistrates court. Possibly.
 

silencio

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Cheers guys for the recommendations so far. And thanks to the user that referenced the MSE issue, ill have a look into that. Some of that text looks good to send if I do pay it.

I think ill call them tomorrow first to query why they have not addressed a single item in my response to them and have instead have opted to send this lovely letter that they have. As i said much earlier in the thread, i will likely pay up (to avoid a criminal record) but there's not a chance in hell I am not going to contest this. The small claims court sounds like a reasonable idea if all I can lose further is £25.

Can i just ask, why are people advising me to contest this further down the line rather than immediately after coughing up?
 

maniacmartin

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Can i just ask, why are people advising me to contest this further down the line rather than immediately after coughing up?

Because there's a time limit from the offence to when they can bring a criminal prosecution, after which they cannot bring a case to court
 

silencio

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Do you know how long this time limit is? Is it 6 months from the event like mentioned earlier in the thread?
 

michael769

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I am not convinced that refunding and then issuing proceedings would be well recieved by a magistrate. At best it risks being viewed as a procedural impropriety at worst vexatious.

But if that is a concern, they have to lay information within 6 months of the alledged offence. You on the other hand have 6 years to make your claim.
 
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Tibbs

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I am not convinced that refunding and then issuing proceedings would be well recieved by a magistrate. At best it risks being viewed as a procedural impropriety at worst vexatious.

But if that is a concern, they have to lay information within 6 months of the alledged offence. You on the other hand have 6 years to make your claim.

I think that's set out in post 45.

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1417750&postcount=45

Also I'd be surprised if NR would risk it going to court. A magistrate's decision hardly counts as precedent, but the risk of a decision going against them is not worth £80 + costs. Boot on the other foot and all that...
 

jkdd77

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The small claims court sounds like a reasonable idea if all I can lose further is £25.

For the sake of balance, you should be aware that an unsuccessful county court claim could result in a loss of more than £25.

Assuming the claim is indeed defended, then there is also a 'hearing fee' for the claimant to pay in addition to the claim fee, which is also likely to be a further £25 [so £50 in total], and, if you did lose, you might be ordered to pay some or all of Northern Rail's costs, which could potentially run into three figures. All this would be in addition to your own costs (service of documents, travel, parking, time off work).

In general, though, with small claims, it is rare for the unsuccessful party to be ordered to pay all the winning party's costs unless the losing party has acted highly unreasonably.

If you won after a defended case, it is very likely that the claim fee and hearing fee would be added to the amount owed by Northern Rail, and you *might* be able to claim some additional costs, although I would not count on it.

It is also customary for a claimant to claim statutory interest on an alleged debt, (currently at a rate of 8%, I believe), but this must be added to the claim at the time of issue and worded in a very specific way. There are various online guides advising members of the public on how to bring such a claim.

For what it is worth, I tend to agree that a refund of the 'FPN' followed by prosecution would most probably be viewed as an 'abuse of process', but the question is whether this is a risk you are willing to take, or whether you are willing to wait six months to eliminate the possibility completely.

If you did go down this route, then it is all the more important to avoid any future situation in which Northern Rail, or any other TOC, could potentially accuse you of any offence, since they may (and probably would) then go straight to prosecution.

In general terms, I support PF schemes as an alternative to prosecution, but rather disapprove of Northern Rail's seeming attempt to introduce a quasi-PF scheme by the 'back door', at a higher rate, and without any of the usual safeguards associated with actual PF schemes.

TOCs are of course entitled to recover both the fare evaded and their reasonable administrative costs associated with the recovery process from offenders.

A £20, or even a £40 administration charge, could most probably be justified as a "reasonable pre-estimate of actual loss", even if it exceeds the actual loss in many individual cases. For comparison, failure to pay (or successfully appeal) a PF within the specified time period normally results in an administration charge of £20 being added to the amount due.

However, it is my belief that;
where a charge is openly described as a "fixed penalty";
is charged in addition to the fare;
is issued to (almost) all first time offenders for the same amount (plus fare) with little consideration for circumstances, and;
is issued at a rate of £80 even when the 'loss' and administration costs incurred by the TOC are absolutely minimal at the time of issue;
then it is unlikely to be justified on that basis.

However, Northern Rail would presumably seek to argue that the 'consideration' was dropping the prosecution, and that your payment constituted binding acceptance.
 

soil

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My guess would be they wouldn't bother to defend.
 

jkdd77

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My guess would be they wouldn't bother to defend.

That's a possibility, but I would never advise bringing a case solely on that basis, as much as Northern Rail might not want a judge ruling on the legality of their 'FPN scheme'.

There have been plenty of cases where a passenger is caught without a ticket, asked for their side of their story in writing, and then threatened with prosecution and at the same time offered a 'settlement' of, say, paying £125 to avoid prosecution.

The difference between those cases, and the Northern 'FPNs', is that, with conventional out-of-court settlements, the amount requested is assessed on a case-by-case basis and claimed to be merely "reimbursement of administrative costs".

By contrast, the Northern 'FPN' is presented as a "fixed penalty" offered to (almost) everyone virtually regardless of circumstances. Furthermore, Northern have made no attempt to even pretend that the £80 charge merely reflects reimbursement of costs or a pre-estimate thereof, and a penalty is by definition punitive.

If Northern claimed that the passenger had contracted to pay the £80, then, since the fixed penalty is not paid for rail travel as such, and is not subject to any statutory or regulatory authority, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 and, especially, Regulation 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 might conceivably come into play.
 

jon0844

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It does seem that the policy is just to issue everyone with this unofficial £80 penalty fare, and hope that most people will settle as it's a big risk to call their bluff and see if they'd proceed down the 'proper' legal route.

This seems to be what FCC is doing too, although I think the amounts asked for varies - either to reflect their actual costs, or perhaps to hide the fact that they're effectively doing the same thing.
 
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