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Refund - where do I apply?

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dharle

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8 Oct 2016
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Hi all,

On Tuesday 1 November I bought a anytime day return from Surrey Quays station (London Overground) to Portslade for £24 (I have a zone 1-5 travelcard). However, all the trains back to London were cancelled due to an electrical fault. I had intended to catch the 4.47pm train to London Victoria. A colleague had to instead give me a lift back home by car to Croydon where I then made my way home.

My question is who do I apply for a refund for my unused return journey? I spoke to the ticket office at London Bridge (as I happened to be there yesterday) and they said I would have to claim from London Overground as that is where I bought the ticket. I then spoke to the advisor at Surrey Quays tonight and he said I should claim a refund online on the "National Rail" website and it was definitely not their responsibility!

I'm little bit confused - it makes sense that I apply to Southern as it was their trains that was cancelled but then again I did buy my ticket at a LU station...

Any advice?!
 
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bb21

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I'm not sure what ticket you have. Is it exactly £24? Is it a Boundary Zone 5 - Portslade Anytime Day Return?

If so, you apply for a refund from the retailer, seeing that you did not seek one at the time of the disruption, so that would be London Overground. Since you already made the single journey, the equivalent single fare (£22.50) would be deducted, so leaving you with a £1.50 refund.
 

hairyhandedfool

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In terms of what you get back, there is nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Travel which really suits your position, as such I think bb21 has it right. Certainly that is how it previously worked with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Whatever the refund value is, the refund application must go to the company that sold you the ticket.
 

maniacmartin

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I then spoke to the advisor at Surrey Quays tonight and he said I should claim a refund online on the "National Rail" website and it was definitely not their responsibility!
Any advice?!

Why am I not surprised. Despite all their claims otherwise, London Overground is a National Rail Train Operating Company,
 

dharle

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8 Oct 2016
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I'm not sure what ticket you have. Is it exactly £24? Is it a Boundary Zone 5 - Portslade Anytime Day Return?

If so, you apply for a refund from the retailer, seeing that you did not seek one at the time of the disruption, so that would be London Overground. Since you already made the single journey, the equivalent single fare (£22.50) would be deducted, so leaving you with a £1.50 refund.

Yes, it was a Boundary Zone 5 ticket to Portslade day return ticket.

Wow, if I'm only going to get £1.50 back then it's not really worth the hassle - what a scam!
 

cjmillsnun

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13 Feb 2011
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3,254
Yes, it was a Boundary Zone 5 ticket to Portslade day return ticket.

Wow, if I'm only going to get £1.50 back then it's not really worth the hassle - what a scam!

How is it a scam? You have a heavily discounted ticket.
 

furlong

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I suggest that you write in asking for a 50% refund, i.e. you hold the company in breach of its contract and consider that a proportionate refund based on the fact it performed half the contracted service would be a fair settlement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(I would also write to Southern in the first instance if it was its services that failed.)
 

AlterEgo

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How is it a scam? You have a heavily discounted ticket.

An Anytime Day Return isn't a discounted ticket. Even if it was, it's irrelevant because this is a contractual failure, not a standard refund.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suggest that you write in asking for a 50% refund, i.e. you hold the company in breach of its contract and consider that a proportionate refund based on the fact it performed half the contracted service would be a fair settlement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(I would also write to Southern in the first instance if it was its services that failed.)

This is the best advice on the thread.
 
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furlong

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this is a contractual failure, not a standard refund.

Exactly. Another approach available since last month is to start from CoT 34:

This section and section 32 do not affect rights and remedies you would otherwise have under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, unless the law allows this.

The Act provides an entitlement to "an appropriate amount" (56(1)) which I think could reasonably be argued to be 50%.
 

bnm

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What the company offers as a standard refund is however not a scam. It's that accusation I take issue with. They can offer more, the passenger can ask for more. If there's a meeting of minds then all's good. If there's not then the passenger can sue for the redress they think they deserve.

None of that process is the passenger being scammed though.
 

dharle

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What the company offers as a standard refund is however not a scam. It's that accusation I take issue with. They can offer more, the passenger can ask for more. If there's a meeting of minds then all's good. If there's not then the passenger can sue for the redress they think they deserve.

None of that process is the passenger being scammed though.

Of course, it's a scam - there are few other industries that are opaque as the rail industry. An industry that has to hide behind estoteric T&Cs is not transparent or genuinely customer-focussed.

Why should I have to come to a Rail forum to find out what recourse I have available? Both Southern and London Overground have fobbed me off - why should it be up to the customer to have to chase this up or undertake a negotiation (as you suggest) about how much compensation one should receive? I paid for a service that was not provided, and yet I have to do all the leg work because no one wants to take responsibility.

It took me almost four hours to get home and a lot of hassle, and some how £1.50 is acceptable compensation? The fact that as a customer I'm not able to even know how much I'm entitled to just shows how farcical the situation is. Please tell me where it makes clear that if one buys a day return, and the train company is unable to fulfil the return leg that the compensation is the cost of the day return less the cost of the single outward journey? Oh right, because it's not written anywhere (or if it is, is buried somewhere that a lay consumer will never find).

If I take the advice given here, and I go back to London Overground then their website says to write to them. So around 60p to post that. It's a scam because no rational person is going to do that to claim 90p back, and the train company will "get away with it". I really sympathise with those that have to commute using National Rail services - many of those around me at Brighton seemed to be indifferent to the chaos because they were so used to the mess - a damning indictment of the state of the railways today.
 

bnm

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Then sue. That is your right. Expose this so called scam. :roll:
 

bb21

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I think the best advice has been suggested. Write to Customer Service and request a 50% refund. There is no guarantee that you will be successful however you will have a good argument for it.

The terms and conditions are set out in the Conditions of Travel so they are not hidden, not that most customers will actually read them.

Calling it a "scam" is neither here nor there. You made a single journey, so the deduction of the single fare cannot be said to be inappropriate. The fact that return fares are offered at a significant discount is an entirely separate topic on its own.
 

Hadders

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Of course, it's a scam - there are few other industries that are opaque as the rail industry. An industry that has to hide behind estoteric T&Cs is not transparent or genuinely customer-focussed.

Why should I have to come to a Rail forum to find out what recourse I have available? Both Southern and London Overground have fobbed me off - why should it be up to the customer to have to chase this up or undertake a negotiation (as you suggest) about how much compensation one should receive? I paid for a service that was not provided, and yet I have to do all the leg work because no one wants to take responsibility.

It took me almost four hours to get home and a lot of hassle, and some how £1.50 is acceptable compensation? The fact that as a customer I'm not able to even know how much I'm entitled to just shows how farcical the situation is. Please tell me where it makes clear that if one buys a day return, and the train company is unable to fulfil the return leg that the compensation is the cost of the day return less the cost of the single outward journey? Oh right, because it's not written anywhere (or if it is, is buried somewhere that a lay consumer will never find).

If I take the advice given here, and I go back to London Overground then their website says to write to them. So around 60p to post that. It's a scam because no rational person is going to do that to claim 90p back, and the train company will "get away with it". I really sympathise with those that have to commute using National Rail services - many of those around me at Brighton seemed to be indifferent to the chaos because they were so used to the mess - a damning indictment of the state of the railways today.

The rail industry's far, far from perfect but it could be worse. Try getting a refund out of a bus company...
 

hairyhandedfool

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Of course, it's a scam - there are few other industries that are opaque as the rail industry. An industry that has to hide behind estoteric T&Cs is not transparent or genuinely customer-focussed....

I can think of plenty of industries that try to confuse people about what they are getting into, the railway is far from the worst offender in this regard, the National Rail Conditions of Travel aren't perfectly written, but they are not as bad as you make out here.

....Why should I have to come to a Rail forum to find out what recourse I have available?....

You could have read the National Rail Conditions of Travel/Carriage and discovered for yourself who to go to. You could further have gone to TfL's, or Southern's Customer Service team if you felt the member of staff at the station was not helpful. If you are still not happy you can go to Transport Focus.

....Both Southern and London Overground have fobbed me off - why should it be up to the customer to have to chase this up or undertake a negotiation (as you suggest) about how much compensation one should receive?....

You contracted rights are available as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel, or, possibly for your season ticket, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. If you feel this is not sufficient it is up to you to 'chase it up'.

Southern didn't "fob you off" they told you, correctly, who to contact to get a refund on the unused portion of your ticket.

.... I paid for a service that was not provided, and yet I have to do all the leg work because no one wants to take responsibility....

That's true of a lot of things, not just the railway. I tried to get a phone contract once, got through all the applications and checks, phone company happy to take on the contract, but the third party retailer backed out at the death. Contract still got passed on to the phone company, I still got a bill and it took six months of me running around to get it all sorted, at no real cost to me. Did I consider that a scam? No, but I will admit that I never used that company again.

....It took me almost four hours to get home and a lot of hassle, and some how £1.50 is acceptable compensation?....

Compensation? No, the £1.50 is the fare you paid for the service you didn't use, if you want compensation I suggest you find a lawyer.

Had you waited for the train (or replacement service provided by the railway) and been delayed reaching your destination, you would have been entitle to compensation which could easily have been greater than £1.50. Your initial account is unclear on what actions you took when you noticed the cancellations, or what advice you received from railway staff at that point.

....The fact that as a customer I'm not able to even know how much I'm entitled to just shows how farcical the situation is....

Did you ask any member of railway staff what you were entitled to? Or how you could find out what you are entitled to?

....Please tell me where it makes clear that if one buys a day return, and the train company is unable to fulfil the return leg that the compensation is the cost of the day return less the cost of the single outward journey? Oh right, because it's not written anywhere (or if it is, is buried somewhere that a lay consumer will never find)....

Your rights are contained in the contract you agreed to, a copy of which is freely available on the National Rail Enquiries website and all Train Company websites (no membership or passwords required), a copy can also be provided by ticket office staff and Customer Service departments, or they can arrange for you to receive a copy. Now as I said before, your particular situation isn't well covered, but you can work out what you are entitled to as this is the contract.

....If I take the advice given here, and I go back to London Overground then their website says to write to them. So around 60p to post that.....

Transport for London (London Overground) Customer Services has a freepost address to write to. You can find this address in the Transport for London Conditions of Carriage, assuming you can find this 'well hidden' document.

....It's a scam because no rational person is going to do that to claim 90p back, and the train company will "get away with it".....

I would, and I think I am rational.

....I really sympathise with those that have to commute using National Rail services - many of those around me at Brighton seemed to be indifferent to the chaos because they were so used to the mess - a damning indictment of the state of the railways today.

You can point your finger at the DfT for the "chaos" on Southern's railways.
 
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