Refusal to endorse ticket - delayed on split tickets

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by 323235, 21 Sep 2019.

  1. EastCoastway

    EastCoastway Member

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    I mean this is bad form and sometimes I get a phone call to validate that I did what I did if I don't stamp it. If people are genuine and demonstrate that they are in a pickle but have valid tickets then they should be endorsed or a customer service voucher written if it's for your ToC. It's about customer experience. The NRCoT is there it stop people taking the mick with tickets, an honest customer who plans to make a journey with what would have been a valid ticket shouldn't need to endorse their own ticket...
     
  2. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    In such a circumstance I would call their bluff. If they did, in fact, kick me off whilst I was travelling with a valid ticket the resulting assault charge should be interesting.
     
  3. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    If they requested you to leave and you complied then I can't see how it could be seen as assault.
     
  4. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Kickng someone off is rather different to requesting them to leave.
     
  5. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I agree that physically removing someone from a train is different to requesting them to leave, but I'm also aware that pretty much all TOCs have a 'no touch' policy, so if any one was to lay hands on you it would probably be BTP.

    The worst a guard would be likely to do is call BTP and refuse to move the train until you are off it (by your own volition or with BTP assistance).
     
  6. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Which is exactly why I would call their bluff.

    If a guard chooses to call BTP and refuse to move their train when someone is on board with a valid ticket and is not behaving in a threatening or abusive manner, more fool them.
     
  7. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    Not necessarily in that order. I've experienced a guard refusing to allow the train to move until certain passengers have left the train, with a threat to call BTP if necessary.
     
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Thing is, generally speaking, BTP either won't know or won't care if the ticket is valid or not. As far as they're concerned there is a passenger who is refusing an instruction from a guard and they're there to diffuse the situation as expeditiously as possible - which most likely be by removing you from the train.
     
  9. E100

    E100 Member

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    Kicked off was used colloquially. The specific threat was BTP be called and I'd be removed from the train forcefully if necessary. Nevertheless, not a pleasant experience and for myself, the main thing was that I was someone who knew the actual guidance/ NRCoT and complained. This guard may have been using this against many other passengers on a frequent basis who were not as well informed / more venerable. Particularly concerning was the "I've been a guard for 20 years...". For the sake of £15 ticket and by that point over an hour late on what should have been a 4 hour journey, I just wanted to get home, alongside generally preferring to avoid confrontation without being a walkover.

    As part of this story which brings us closer to the original purpose of the thread. My connection time 9 minutes (with 8 minutes minimum). The train was 4L but stood for a further 5 outside the station leading to the missed connection. In the future, I would try to get tickets endorsed by ticket office staff/platform staff, however, if at an unstaffed station this could lead to the example whereby someone would not seek onward endorsement from the guard on the train thinking they could make the connection until it was too late (this being an 11 coach Pendolino).
     
  10. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never had issues like this, but then I show the ticket and smile at the guard.

    I've probably just cursed myself now :lol:
     
  11. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    In that situation I wouldn’t be leaving if I was 100% sure my ticket was valid unless requested to do so by the BTP. Then I’d happily comply with their request (after explaining why my ticket is valid). I’d have the cost of the delay minutes in my mind. A guard trying to arrogantly get 47 pence commission can cost their employer £10,000 in delay minutes.
     
  12. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    It's much more likely that they're incompetent than acting with malicious intent
     
  13. MrEd

    MrEd Member

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    Most guards doing on-train revenue checks are reasonable people and make good use of discretion, so your approach is probably not wrong. For instance, I had no massive issue with showing the Inverness conductor on the 10.56 Kyle train the ticket for the 08.55 despite the lack of endorsement, as those guys are generally a nice bunch and are probably aware of issues with the sleeper anyway (and the near impossibility of prosecution for a ticketing irregularity in Scotland means that you can be more relaxed about such things).

    It’s generally always been from RPIs on Intercity routes out of London that I’ve had or known grief from in the past, particularly EMT. I did also witness a PF being issued on a Norwich to London over an invalid advance (I think a connection from one of the East Anglian branches was late so they missed their booked train). Very surly RPI insisted that the ticket had to be endorsed otherwise it was invalid and a PF would be issued... young lass was quite distressed and the RPI did absolutely nothing to help except say ‘you should know that it’s against the law to travel without a valid ticket’ repeatedly in a condescending manner, take her details, issue a PF and collect the £20. The girl tried her best to explain the situation but the RPI was having none of it (not that he actually cared to listen). Then he told her that the full anytime single from Norwich to London was due... young lass had an absolute fit and other passengers intervened telling him he was being ridiculous... the RPI then threatened to call BTP (obviously a bluff)... eventually the RPI said he’d be ’lenient’ and let her get off at Stowmarket and buy a discounted off peak from the booking office... which the poor lass did (delaying her journey needlessly by 30 minutes, or perhaps more).

    Having witnessed the behaviour of that RPI (whose behaviour was actually out of order, and he actually caused someone to delay their journey further) I decided if travelling on that route in that situation to save the hassle and buy a new ticket. What must managers think of how some staff (particularly RPIs, as guards generally tend to be more relaxed) behave towards members of the travelling public who are clearly not criminals and have actually been inconvenienced by the rail industry? It’s definitely a poor advert for the industry. Particularly when the passenger is not even vaguely in the wrong...
     
  14. MrEd

    MrEd Member

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    I have sadly come to the conclusion that if it’s verbal, it’s meaningless, so I just buy a new ticket. I do wonder reluctance on the part of staff to endorse tickets has something to do with the fact that they worry about getting into trouble? Perhaps a change of management culture is needed, as I for one would welcome staff who actively took the initiative to help out passengers who had been inconvenienced. At the end of the day, an industry in which people are disciplined just for trying to help customers out is not one in which I would have any interest in working.

    I appreciate that revenue protection is a very complex area and that TOCs are (quite rightly) committed to a robust approach to fare evasion, but I do feel that some TOCs’ management and staff could do better to differentiate legitimate travellers in a spot of bother from intentional fare dodgers.
     
    Last edited: 5 Oct 2019
  15. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    The response to that is MCOL every time. Perhaps if it costs TOCs hundreds if not thousands of pounds in legal fees they will bite the bullet and invest properly in training. lf the arrogant or incompetent refuse to learn they should be fired!
    l have yet to have to sue a TOC but am very happy to. I did sue Sleezyjet who, after months of BS, settled my claim in full (including interest) the day before the hearing...
     
    Last edited: 6 Oct 2019
  16. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    A formal complaint to the BTP would also follow. The role of the police is NOT to support arrogant incompetent bullies who have a bit of power.
     
  17. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I'm pretty sure that would just get a polite "We note your complaint, however we are not in a position to comment on if a ticket is or is not valid. Please forward your comments to the TOC concerned."
     
  18. nickswift99

    nickswift99 Member

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    However as a police force they have statutory rules regarding complaints. Any officer exercising their powers is subject to formal oversight. This includes the IOPC.

    Consequently I would suggest that most officers would act very reasonably. If they thought that rail staff were unreasonable they would give the passengers the benefit of the doubt.
     
  19. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I agree. However if it simply came down to "I've asked this passenger to leave and he's refused" then absent any other factors the BTP officer is more likely than not going to escort the passenger from the train.

    They are neither trained nor expected to know anything about ticket validity. Any knowledge that they have and can apply is a bonus.
     
  20. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    Which could under some circumstances constitute an assault which is legally actionable. As was said earlier BTP senior management will be a lot more sensitive to complaints than you seem to think. In extremis railway staff could, perhaps even should, find themselves arrrested for wasting police time.
     
  21. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    True, but those extreme circumstances aren't what are being discussed here.
     

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