Resourcing rail replacement buses - why does it vary so widely by TOC?

[Mike395]

Southern are again having issues with an under-supply of rail replacement buses ferrying people between Gatwick and Three Bridges on the Brighton main line, which is causing significant queues (and according to an internal brief tweeted recently, apparently risking closure of London's second busiest airport entirely, though taking that with a pinch of salt).

I completely understand here that the works are necessary and that the particularly good weather isn't helping in terms of demand for trains to/from Brighton, but the good weather has been forecast for at least a week and at the very least I'd have hoped after similar widely-reported issues with undersupply of buses at Redhill a few weeks ago (which wasn't on a bank holiday!) that they'd have put out a statement explaining why they haven't been able to get as many buses as they'd like.Instead they're again just stating they'll 'review feedback'.

Contrast this with the East Midlands Trains block between Bedford and Leicester on a couple of weekends recently (as just one example) - organised, orderly queues at both ends, with an oversupply of buses in case of increased demand.

Not being particularly well versed on how rail replacement buses are organised, is there a reason one is so much more well organised than the other? I get that the Bank Holiday weekend with this weather is going to put additional demand on these buses (and reduce availability of them) but as they managed to get 40 extra buses on the day, I'm wondering why this couldn't have been done earlier in the week, as one thought...

 

[theironroad]

Well the nre app shows buses running every 5 mins between the airport and there bridges. Southern have said that they are trying to source more and it seems the 2 hour wait is down to 15 mins. Considering the number of trains that go from London to Brighton and many would have been packed with daytrippers today, it probably needs a bus every minute in the mornings southbound as 1 coach takes about 53 people???? And 1 700 class train with standing is well over a 1000 people ........

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure, but there are probably a number of factors.

Stagecoach are generally very good at organising things, including rail replacement. The lengthy Leicester - Luton runs used coaches and drivers contracted in from operators with modern vehicles and full luggage capability.

I think the current issues around Three Bridges may be influenced by it being the local (GoAhead) bus companies attempting to cover much of the work with their own fleet of buses and drivers. Not only will there be much reduced luggage capacity but I guess it's also highly likely to have been a struggle to get enough bus drivers (on overtime) to work today - even before the good weather. Given that the A23/M23 will always struggle on a Bank Holiday weekend then I suppose it's a very different scenario to the Leicester RRP.

 

[neilm]

Any reason why they could not run trains via the Sutton and mole valley lines, then reverse at Horsham and Three Bridges? It looks like no works going on.

 

[Elecman]

4 RRBs hav3 been taken off the road at Preston due to being unroadworthy by the Police

 

[TimG]

Today's issues are a bit of a joke. There are situations where the road route is much longer, slower etc which means that you can't get the capacity. This is only 3 miles!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Over Xmas & New Year 2015/16 (lasting into the early days of January) the Brighton main line had a blockade at Purley, meaning no direct trains from London to Gatwick. Actually that's not quite right, there were direct trains but they went via Horsham and took ages (i.e. direct trains but using an indirect route IYSWIM!).

However what GTR did was to arrange a seemingly well organised bus replacement operation linking Gatwick to East Grinstead, for fast trains on to London Victoria - this was the recommended route and it appeared to work pretty well. So it can be done.

The other thing I'm curious about is, given the sunny weather, how many passengers travelled on the spur of the moment down to Brighton, without having checked for engineering works and bustitutions. Perhaps Southeastern (and others) need to make a better effort at pointing out that they too can take you from the metropolis to the seaside (though the fastest trains that do so are now from St Pancras).

 

[Three-Nine]

There were issues with overcrowding on some services on the West of England line yesterday, which may have been related to the problems on the GWR line, but thats the first time I can recall that happening on a bank holiday before. Possibly its been one of those times when for whatever reason everyone just decides to travel by train.

 

[TimG]

Bournemouth/Hastings/Broadstairs are a bit too far.. but I guess would have taken less time than Brighton today.

Southend is a bit sad.

Where would you recommend?

Personally, if I was a croydoner just wanting some kind of beach I would drive to Lancing, as then roads and parking are good.

 

[yorksrob]

Bournemouth/Hastings/Broadstairs are a bit too far.. but I guess would have taken less time than Brighton today.

Southend is a bit sad.

Where would you recommend?

Personally, if I was a croydoner just wanting some kind of beach I would drive to Lancing, as then roads and parking are good.

Couldn't you go from West Croydon to Bognor with only one change at Horsham (and no RRB !).

 

[neilm]

Couldn't you go from West Croydon to Bognor with only one change at Horsham (and no RRB !).

No Sunday service from Dorking to Horsham. Which was my earlier question, why southern did not run a service from Vic to BTN, either via Littlehampton or reversing at Horsham and three bridges.

 

[yorksrob]

No Sunday service from Dorking to Horsham. Which was my earlier question, why southern did not run a service from Vic to BTN, either via Littlehampton or reversing at Horsham and three bridges.

No Sunday service, in this day and age ! Shocking.

 

[randyrippley]

It seems to me that the the planning of replacement buses has been screwed up ever since Frazer Eagle went bust in in 2009.
No-one seems able to match their resources or planning ability.
Link to the wiki entry about them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Eagle

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems to me that the the planning of replacement buses has been screwed up ever since Frazer Eagle went bust in in 2009.
No-one seems able to match their resources or planning ability.
Link to the wiki entry about them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Eagle

Weren't they essentially killed off by First setting up an in-house competitor which got buses more cheaply? They were quite an impressive operation, though.

 

[Megafuss]

A lot of coach operators are going to need to replace the coaches they have soon as they all need to be accessible by 2020. I can foresee the number of potential RRB operators diminishing as it will cost quite a bit to replace them.

 

[randyrippley]

Weren't they essentially killed off by First setting up an in-house competitor which got buses more cheaply? They were quite an impressive operation, though.

Hence the current problems: they didn't have the experience or skills or resources to do it, and they still don't. Nor do the other TOCs or their contractors

 

[theironroad]

I noticed there was a train scheduled to leave Brighton at 1826 direct to Victoria via Littlehampton and Horsham and while limited stops, took about an hour longer (planned) than using the RRB between three bridges and Gatwick.

 

[theironroad]

Anyone have a factual answer as to who picks up the bill for RRB hire/staff and extra TOC staffing? TOC or NR?

 

[theironroad]

There seems to be two threads running talking about Gatwick and buses.......?????

 

[Joe Paxton]

There seems to be two threads running talking about Gatwick and buses.......?????

They are subtly different - I think the OP intended this thread to be a more general discussion about how RRB operations can seemingly vary so much across different TOCs, whilst the other thread - "Gatwick Airport: Rail Replacement Bus disruption (06/05)" - is specifically about today's happenings (it has been split off by a mod from another thread about an earlier RRB related shambles at Redhill in late February, so the conversation may have been somewhat bit hidden from many until it got its own thread).

 

[Deafdoggie]

It seems to me that the the planning of replacement buses has been screwed up ever since Frazer Eagle went bust in in 2009.
No-one seems able to match their resources or planning ability.
Link to the wiki entry about them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Eagle

They were poor at paying coach companies. Arguably because Railtrack (as then was) was poor at paying them. But ultimately it reached the stage where coach companies refused any more work from them till they’d been paid for the previous job. This led to them not covering work just before their demise, and thus other companies, such as First, set up to do it themselves.

Also, of course, it’s the same fee being paid. Cutting out Frazer Eagles slice of the pie meant more for the others to share and a direct payment means payment is quicker too.

Whilst they were good at arranging it, there just isn’t enough money in it.

 

[The Planner]

Anyone have a factual answer as to who picks up the bill for RRB hire/staff and extra TOC staffing? TOC or NR?

NR pays schedule 4 compensation for the block which covers both cancelled trains and an agreed amount for RRB. If the TOC needs to go over and above that amount then it will come from their pockets.

 

[Joe Paxton]

NR pays schedule 4 compensation for the block which covers both cancelled trains and an agreed amount for RRB. If the TOC needs to go over and above that amount then it will come from their pockets.

What is the formula for the schedule 4 payment? Does it vary depending upon passenger demand forecasts, in terms of the RRB element?

 

[theironroad]

NR pays schedule 4 compensation for the block which covers both cancelled trains and an agreed amount for RRB. If the TOC needs to go over and above that amount then it will come from their pockets.

Thanks.

So potentially, a TOC could profit by using less buses/staff or does the loss of fare revenue exceed any potential profit?

 

[The Planner]

What is the formula for the schedule 4 payment? Does it vary depending upon passenger demand forecasts, in terms of the RRB element?

No, its fixed upon mileage and a fixed cost per cancelled service as far as I know. London/SE attracts a higher mileage cost if I recall.

 

[Joe Paxton]

No, its fixed upon mileage and a fixed cost per cancelled service as far as I know. London/SE attracts a higher mileage cost if I recall.

Thanks.

I wonder if GTR feels (or indeed is) restricted in terms of extra provision, given the management contract nature of the franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hence the current problems: they didn't have the experience or skills or resources to do it, and they still don't. Nor do the other TOCs or their contractors

I don’t recall SWT ever having any issues running their own RRBs, I’ve got a feeling that when Fraser Eagle were around they weren’t involved in the south.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t recall SWT ever having any issues running their own RRBs, I’ve got a feeling that when Fraser Eagle were around they weren’t involved in the south.

FE really cut their teeth on the WCML weekend bustitutions that went on in the early 2000s for a very long time.

 

[uww11x]

Arriva rumoured to take a while paying coach company's thus people reluctant to do the jobs. Was a thread on a coach group on Facebook about it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Arriva rumoured to take a while paying coach company's thus people reluctant to do the jobs. Was a thread on a coach group on Facebook about it.

First Group is also thought to be very keen to go for the cheapest quotes, regardless of quality.