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Restoration of the Peak Line

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yorksrob

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1) One only has to look at the level of opposition to EWR, HS2, etc when they have consulted and gone through the consents process for building a new railway across unexciting farmland to realise that building a new railway through the middle of a national park, on an already well established leisure facility, will be an order of magnitude more difficult. I look forward to the pressure group putting forward its proposals for how it will build such a railway.

That is virgin territory that has never been built on before.

The reopened railway will occupy a long established way through the countryside.

It clearly isn't the problem if people aren't pursuing it, as @Bald Rick has said, its failed twice at trying to just secure funding to look at a business case. If this was such a massive issue to re-open it, what are the local councils doing to pursue it, are the local quarries prepared to chip in as noted earlier, and so on. I keep saying, if a third party wants to fund this to a point of a strategic outline business case they can do.

People are pursuing it (Melrap) its just that as usual, the people with the power aren't.

Why is it a "problem" ? Especially as Bald Rick points out (post 115), this one has had two failed submissions into the Restoring Your Railways fund - which is the first step.

So, in summary, Network Rail or the TOCs don't see a need for it, otherwise they'd be funding such work. Other bodies can submit via RYR, which has been done and it's been rejected, presumably because it isn't meeting some basic criteria.

All of this means you are, once again, being the St Jude of rail reopenings.

This has been one of my preferred reopenings for many years. There are plenty that I don't have an opinion on.
 
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The Planner

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That is virgin territory that has never been built on before.

The reopened railway will occupy a long established way through the countryside.



People are pursuing it (Melrap) its just that as usual, the people with the power aren't.
A long established way that hasn't had a railway on it for 55 years, things change and move on, its effectively virgin territory again. If Melrap have the cash and backing then they can fund the studies. Instead of complaining about why the people with the power aren't pursuing it, ask why they aren't pursuing it.
 

yorksrob

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A long established way that hasn't had a railway on it for 55 years, things change and move on, its effectively virgin territory again. If Melrap have the cash and backing then they can fund the studies. Instead of complaining about why the people with the power aren't pursuing it, ask why they aren't pursuing it.

Isn't that preciseley what they're doing ?

Just because trains haven't been running along this line doesn't mean that it's virgin territory. It is a very physical presence in the landscape. I agree that some light railway routes disappear back into the landscape as though they'd never existed. This isn't one of them.
 

The Planner

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Isn't that preciseley what they're doing ?
Lets wait and see what comes out of their feasibility study then, it will be a long wait I expect. Their own website says they are seeking funding to produce the strategic outline business case, clearly they don't have it. It also says they can be more specific when that is done, so it isn't even fag packet stage beyond the schematics on the website. They also expect a TWAO by 2024/25 and opening by 2030, "managing expectations" is a good phrase to use here even if that was in 2021 when they stated that.

There is a beautiful irony in that they want to run a fast service via the Hope Valley!. They state a twin track railway with what clearly looks like 2tph, one all shacks (12 stops) and a semi fast that goes via Chinley. That is going to need loops as the semi fast will catch the stopper, and that is ignoring whatever freight they assume is going to use the line (which there is no mention of). That doesn't need detailed train planning to understand.
 

A0wen

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This has been one of my preferred reopenings for many years. There are plenty that I don't have an opinion on.

You seem to have misunderstood - St Jude is the patron saint of lost causes. And Matlock - Buxton is pretty firmly in that category.
 

daodao

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Let's look at this proposal, which I shall define as reopening Matlock to Buxton, against Altnabreac's "golden rules" for a successful rail re-opening:
  1. Population of 10,000+ No - the population of Bakewell, the only significant town en route, is well under 10,000.
  2. 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre. Just about true for Bakewell to Derby, but not in the other direction
  3. Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed Largely true, especially south of Bakewell apart from the bridge over the A6 at Rowsley.
  4. Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required True if all that would be done is to extend the existing Derby-Matlock stopping service northwards
  5. Regeneration potential to justify public investment No - it's mostly in the Peak District National Park
  6. Housing growth demand to create both demand and developer contributions. No - as it's mostly in the Peak District National Park
  7. Any extension / diversion should have the effect of generating more passengers than it loses. Possibly true, but the potential for generating passengers is pretty low, given that there is just currently 1 single deck bus per hour from Buxton to Bakewell and 2 buses per hour from Bakewell to Matlock.
This proposal meets relatively few of Altnabreac's criteria for a successful rail re-opening. It might have a slightly better case (albeit still poor) if it was confined to a proposal to re-open just the Bakewell-Matlock segment as a single track stub line, with a passing loop at Matlock itself.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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How well has such an aspiration of the thread title been received by local councillors and residents in past and more recent times in the areas where such a reopening would so occur? Has it ever featured as an issue in local area elections?
 

Meerkat

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Having driven through the Wye gorge and looked at a map and satellite views by what factor do we think the budget will explode when they do ground investigation of the way the line hangs on the sides of the dale?
And by what factor will the opposition explode when they find out that thousands of mature trees need cutting down and the embankments/cuttings cleared and covered in aggregate/gabions/rockbolting/netting?
 

Nottingham59

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If you really want to increase rail connectivity from Manchester to Derby, then there are several ways of providing this, which would be less contentious than re-converting the Monsal Trail.
  • The first thing would be to plan the HS2 timetable so that the Manchester - Birmingham shuttles reverse at Curzon St and continue on to East Midlands Parkway and beyond. Allowing MAN-BCZ at 41mins; 3mins turnround; BCZ-EMD at 20 mins (same as to Toton); EMD-DBY at 8mins (as now), gives 1h12m for MAN-DBY. Or the same for MAN-NOT. Faster than any conceivable timings via Millers Dale. And this would not use up any extra capacity on HS2, as these individual services are already in the HS2 indicative timetable (TSS).
  • Re-double the chord from Dore West to Dore South, and run direct trains from Manchester to Derby or Nottingham. I note that when Transport for the North (TfN) dropped proposals to run 4tph from Manchester to Sheffield, they said the fourth train would have to be flighted with the third. But if one of these trains is going to Sheffield, and one is going directly to Chesterfield, then flighting them is exactly what is needed.
  • Use HS2 infrastructure to run direct services from Liverpool to places like Sheffield and Peterborough via BCZ and EMD. Even 1h30m for LIV-NOT would be half the time of the current EMR service. Curzon St will have 7 platforms to handle just 9tph in the full HS2 timetable, so there is plenty of space capacity in the northern legs of the "Y" network.
 

Bald Rick

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That is virgin territory that has never been built on before.

It doesn’t matter. In the eyes of the law, it is exactly the same process to go through, to ensure that those who live near the route or have an interest in it can have their voices heard.


People are pursuing it (Melrap) its just that as usual, the people with the power aren't.

Because the proposers have not made a good enough case to explain why anyone should invest any public money even investigating an initial business case. It’s really not at all hard to do that - it’s roughly a week‘s work for two or three people that know what they’re talking about - assuming the proposal is likely to have sufficiently compelling benefits to generate a positive case. If someone gave me £10k I’d do it.


by what factor do we think the budget will explode

Well, there isn’t a budget so that’s hard to say! No doubt some cost estimates have been suggested by the promoters (I haven’t looked), but I’d be surprised if they were realistic. Here’s mine. Because of the nature of the terrain, the extra measures that will be needed for environmental protection in the national park, and what will no doubt be a very long consents process through a Development Consent Order* process, this will be upwards of £50m per km for the new build, and maybe half that for the sections that take over Peak Rail and the freight line at the Buxton end. Add in upgrades needed on the existing Matlock and Buxton branches to accommodate the extra traffic, and a figure of £1.5bn would be a reasonable estimate, albeit one that doesn’t allow for any upgrades elsewhere on the network that might be needed to accommodate new services on this line.



*this proposal is far too big for an Order under the Transport and Works Act, which I hope the proposers know.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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  • The first thing would be to plan the HS2 timetable so that the Manchester - Birmingham shuttles reverse at Curzon St and continue on to East Midlands Parkway and beyond. Allowing MAN-BCZ at 41mins; 3mins turnround; BCZ-EMD at 20 mins (same as to Toton); EMD-DBY at 8mins (as now), gives 1h12m for MAN-DBY. Or the same for MAN-NOT. Faster than any conceivable timings via Millers Dale. And this would not use up any extra capacity on HS2, as these individual services are already in the HS2 indicative timetable (TSS).
HS2? What year in the future are you referring to?
 

6Gman

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It doesn’t matter. In the eyes of the law, it is exactly the same process to go through, to ensure that those who live near the route or have an interest in it can have their voices heard.




Because the proposers have not made a good enough case to explain why anyone should invest any public money even investigating an initial business case. It’s really not at all hard to do that - it’s roughly a week‘s work for two or three people that know what they’re talking about - assuming the proposal is likely to have sufficiently compelling benefits to generate a positive case. If someone gave me £10k I’d do it.




Well, there isn’t a budget so that’s hard to say! No doubt some cost estimates have been suggested by the promoters (I haven’t looked), but I’d be surprised if they were realistic. Here’s mine. Because of the nature of the terrain, the extra measures that will be needed for environmental protection in the national park, and what will no doubt be a very long consents process through a Development Consent Order* process, this will be upwards of £50m per km for the new build, and maybe half that for the sections that take over Peak Rail and the freight line at the Buxton end. Add in upgrades needed on the existing Matlock and Buxton branches to accommodate the extra traffic, and a figure of £1.5bn would be a reasonable estimate, albeit one that doesn’t allow for any upgrades elsewhere on the network that might be needed to accommodate new services on this line.



*this proposal is far too big for an Order under the Transport and Works Act, which I hope the proposers know.
May I press the virtual Like button?

A skeleton timetable (which a half-competent train planner could run up in half a day*) would be a start. MEMRAP don't appear to have one?



* For the Derby - Matlock - Buxton/ Stockport elements; the wider implications could be parked for now.



I've just spotted a claim on their website that "One train can remove around 360 cars from the roads". What are they expecting to operate these services? Double Voyagers?
 
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Nottingham59

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HS2? What year in the future are you referring to?
Around 2045? HS2 will happen at least 100 years before Millers Dale to Matlock gets re-opened. So if MEMRAP want to improve Manchester-Derby travel, then campaign for HS2 to make no-cost timetabling changes to enable through journeys. HS2 Ltd obviously haven't thought about using the northern Y like this, or they would have been trumpeting about it on their website. (EDIT: And they would have designed Bham Interchange to allow cross-platfrom interchanges from Southbound to Northbound services and vice versa).

And even if the Eastern Stump of HS2 gets truncated back to the Delta Junction, I still expect it to merge onto the Birmingham-Derby line around Kingsbury. So Liverpool-Crewe-Curzon St-Derby-Sheffield will be a viable HS2 service. And at 1h49m, faster than the current EMR route LIV-SHF via congested Castlefield and Hope Valley. With no additional infrastructure or rolling stock needed.
 
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Killingworth

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It doesn’t matter. In the eyes of the law, it is exactly the same process to go through, to ensure that those who live near the route or have an interest in it can have their voices heard.

Because the proposers have not made a good enough case to explain why anyone should invest any public money even investigating an initial business case. It’s really not at all hard to do that - it’s roughly a week‘s work for two or three people that know what they’re talking about - assuming the proposal is likely to have sufficiently compelling benefits to generate a positive case. If someone gave me £10k I’d do it.

Well, there isn’t a budget so that’s hard to say! No doubt some cost estimates have been suggested by the promoters (I haven’t looked), but I’d be surprised if they were realistic. Here’s mine. Because of the nature of the terrain, the extra measures that will be needed for environmental protection in the national park, and what will no doubt be a very long consents process through a Development Consent Order* process, this will be upwards of £50m per km for the new build, and maybe half that for the sections that take over Peak Rail and the freight line at the Buxton end. Add in upgrades needed on the existing Matlock and Buxton branches to accommodate the extra traffic, and a figure of £1.5bn would be a reasonable estimate, albeit one that doesn’t allow for any upgrades elsewhere on the network that might be needed to accommodate new services on this line.

*this proposal is far too big for an Order under the Transport and Works Act, which I hope the proposers know.
Those living closest to the entire route would have a lot to say at Network Rail public consultations on specific proposals and then the inevitable public inquiry. There would be a lot of very vocal and well reasoned opposition.

To get through tho detailed planning necessary for a project of this size and then through those public stages would cost many millions. MEMRAP hasn't got that sort of money. As far as I can see Derbyshire County Council is somewhat ambivalent about the project, caught between the economic benefits of employment provided by the quarries and tourism and the fear that long lumbering freight trains would destroy the peace of the Peak District countryside that tourists come to see. Those living close to a mainline will know heavy freight trains cause vibrations when they pass by.

Some members may recall the Northern Hub proposals to build Platforms 15 and 16 at Manchester Piccadilly. That would have produced far greater benefits to the north. In 2014 it got to a public inquiry that was submitted to the Secretary of State for his consideration under the terms of the Transport and Works Act. It has gathered so much dust that current staff in the Department probably don't know where it is, but it has not been approved, or officially rejected, nearly 9 years later. The much smaller Hope Valley scheme started life in the late 1990s, was officially noted in Railtrack's Strategic Rail Plan in 2002 to be completed 2003-4, got to public consultations in 2013 and 2015 and to public inquiry in 2016. That wasn't approved with a TWAO until 2018 and it should be completed 2023-4 (and it was nearly stopped by the CLH strategic oil pipeline's proximity to the site).

Far too much energy and time is being spent on this proposal when the huge sums of money that would be needed can be better spent on quicker and simpler projects that will bring more immediate benefits. Reference has been made to the Hope Valley capacity scheme's original intention to add 2 further hourly fast paths between Manchester and Sheffield, reduced to one in 2015. That appears to be undeliverable without doubling the chord at Hazel Grove and adding a third track between Dore and Sheffield, plus resolving platform constraints at and into Manchester and Sheffield. The third track down the Sheaf Valley is supposedly part of the MML electrification and Sheffield remodelling plans to be completed by - 2030? Maybe? It would be good if we could see all this completed first.

Capacity constraints exist around the country. Let's concentrate on resolving specific junctions, platforms, crossovers and signalling - like updating from Earles in the Hope Valley into Manchester to match the system now going in from there into Sheffield under York. It's on a to do list - by 2030?

Trouble is restoring long abandoned lines attracts far more emotive support than for, say, restoring a 3rd (and 4th) track from Dore into Sheffield.
 

furnessvale

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Those living closest to the entire route would have a lot to say at Network Rail public consultations on specific proposals and then the inevitable public inquiry. There would be a lot of very vocal and well reasoned opposition.

To get through tho detailed planning necessary for a project of this size and then through those public stages would cost many millions. MEMRAP hasn't got that sort of money. As far as I can see Derbyshire County Council is somewhat ambivalent about the project, caught between the economic benefits of employment provided by the quarries and tourism and the fear that long lumbering freight trains would destroy the peace of the Peak District countryside that tourists come to see. Those living close to a mainline will know heavy freight trains cause vibrations when they pass by.
Love the idea that a "long lumbering freight train" which replaces 75 HGVs, will somehow disturb the peace of the Peak district compared to those very HGVs which glide silently along!

The stone leaves the Peak. More than 50% currently leaves by rail but that still leaves millions of tonnes departing by road, some of which could be on rail if a more direct route south was available.
 
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Killingworth

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Love the idea that a "long lumbering freight train" which replaces 75 HGVs, will somehow disturb the peace of the Peak district compared to those very HGVs which glide silently along!

The stone leaves the Peak. More than 50% currently leaves by rail but that still leaves millions of tonnes departing by road, some of which could be on rail if a more direct route south was available.

An interesting debate where the specific percentages would be helpful. All the stone leaving non rail connected smaller quarries goes by HGVs. It would be useful to know how much stone and cement goes directly to destinations without a rail connection. Almost all the loads will ultimately be distributed by road from wherever the long trains are discharged, an exception being use on the railway.

It's rather a vague statement that more would go by rail if a more direct route south were available.. Where are all these HGVs going now? I've certainly seen HGVs heading north and east with stone and cement and some must be going west.
 

A0wen

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Love the idea that a "long lumbering freight train" which replaces 75 HGVs, will somehow disturb the peace of the Peak district compared to those very HGVs which glide silently along!

The stone leaves the Peak. More than 50% currently leaves by rail but that still leaves millions of tonnes departing by road, some of which could be on rail if a more direct route south was available.

I'm not sure you're right about the bit in bold - at present some stone traffic does head south, albeit heading north before it can head south - but as with all other kinds of freight, economies of scale come into play.

For a train load of stone there needs to be the demand to send a whole train load from point 'A' (the quarry in this case) to point 'B'. If that doesn't exist, or if the customer can't or doesn't justify that volume, then they'll look for more cost-effective (i.e. road) transport. It's no good saying "oh, just increase the cost of road transport" - all that will do is put some of those smaller customers out of business or force them to massively increase their prices to their customers - which then puts them at a disadvantage.

I suspect all that re-opening Matlock - Buxton would do is lead to some of the existing trains heading that way, but a negligible amount of new traffic. The problem it does then introduce is those re-routed trains will have to pick their way through other areas of the rail network which they don't currently have to do.

You haven't explained why those shipments which currently go by road would suddenly switch to rail if the line through the Peak District was reopened.
 

Burton Road

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Have read through this thread, but haven't seen in covered, but if it was I apologise. If the quarry companies decided they were willing to fund a cheap as possible line to Matlock themselves (ignoring the potential planning objections to that) how much do posters think they'd reasonably be looking at?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Have read through this thread, but haven't seen in covered, but if it was I apologise. If the quarry companies decided they were willing to fund a cheap as possible line to Matlock themselves (ignoring the potential planning objections to that) how much do posters think they'd reasonably be looking at?
Have you been informed there is likely to be breaking news on that particular matter, with your posting suddenly appearing on the seemingly-dormant thread about ten weeks since the previous posting was made?

I am sure that saying "ignoring the potential planning objections" bears a lack of understanding of such matters in an area that we are discussing.
 

Nottingham59

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Have read through this thread, but haven't seen in covered, but if it was I apologise. If the quarry companies decided they were willing to fund a cheap as possible line to Matlock themselves (ignoring the potential planning objections to that) how much do posters think they'd reasonably be looking at?
Hello Burton Road, and welcome to the forum! My guess for reinstating even the cheapest possible line from Millers Dale Junction to South Rowlsley (i.e. between the places where track is still in situ) would be hundreds of millions. Perhaps a billion.
 

Burton Road

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Have you been informed there is likely to be breaking news on that particular matter, with your posting suddenly appearing on the seemingly-dormant thread about ten weeks since the previous posting was made?

I am sure that saying "ignoring the potential planning objections" bears a lack of understanding of such matters in an area that we are discussing.
Just a rumour and nothing I'd put much stock in, however the rumour sent me down the rabbit hole of reading the 2004 feasibility study and it was a scenario they didn't assess, so I was just curious what the potential costs would be to sense check my own scepticism of said rumour. I am perfectly aware of what the planning objections would be and how difficult they would be to overcome, but as they weren't pertinent to my specific question I thought it would be understandable to say so up front before some know all took it upon themselves to take me to task for not having considered them. Sadly I see my efforts to avoid that were wasted.

I don't usually post here, just lurk, so I wasn't aware that there was some kind of tacit policy against posting in "seemingly dormant" threads. I will bear your welcoming response in mind should my curiosity ever tempt me to make such a mistake again.

Hello Burton Road, and welcome to the forum! My guess for reinstating even the cheapest possible line from Millers Dale Junction to South Rowlsley (i.e. between the places where track is still in situ) would be hundreds of millions. Perhaps a billion.

Thank you very much. Knowing the areas and the difficulties involved (and having read all the informed contributions to this thread) it did seem to be an impractical idea, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
 
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Nottingham59

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Thank you very much. Knowing the areas and the difficulties involved (and having read all the informed contributions to this thread) it did seem to be an impractical idea, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
You're welcome. The distance is around 10 miles. For comparison, restoring a two-track East West Railway over the 20 miles from Bicester to Bletchley was projected to cost £760M, and infrastructure prices have perhaps doubled since then. And the Peak District has more difficult geography and stricter landscaping issues than open countryside in Buckinghamshire.
 

Bartsimho

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You're welcome. The distance is around 10 miles. For comparison, restoring a two-track East West Railway over the 20 miles from Bicester to Bletchley was projected to cost £760M, and infrastructure prices have perhaps doubled since then. And the Peak District has more difficult geography and stricter landscaping issues than open countryside in Buckinghamshire.
Something that could make it cheaper though is if it is for freight use rather than for passenger use (easier signalling and lower speeds) as well as the alignment being still intact (beyond a bridge in Rowsley)
 

The Planner

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Something that could make it cheaper though is if it is for freight use rather than for passenger use (easier signalling and lower speeds) as well as the alignment being still intact (beyond a bridge in Rowsley)
Why would the signalling be easier? The earth works, structures etc all have to be fit for the freight at 2000+ tonnes, so its going to be suitable for passenger regardless.
 
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