Revised EMR Regional Timetables - From 19th June

[I like Class 153]

Call for train services to be restored over 'promise broken'

A council has threatened to report East Midlands Railways to the rail regulator

www.nottinghampost.com

Reinstate the Matlock to Nottingham train line

Help us to defend our vital train services that our important to tourism in many town such as Matlock bath and Belper across the line.

you.38degrees.org.uk

 

[LowLevel]

Call for train services to be restored over 'promise broken'

A council has threatened to report East Midlands Railways to the rail regulator

www.nottinghampost.com

Reinstate the Matlock to Nottingham train line

Help us to defend our vital train services that our important to tourism in many town such as Matlock bath and Belper across the line.

you.38degrees.org.uk

It seems to be a given that Matlock to Nottingham will mostly likely return, it's just a question of when. The main problem with that route was the need to shunt the train out of the station and back again at Nottingham which was very laborious in terms of staffing, requiring station staff to dispose of the unit and a driver to be tied up for some time shunting it.

 

[I like Class 153]

It seems to be a given that Matlock to Nottingham will mostly likely return, it's just a question of when. The main problem with that route was the need to shunt the train out of the station and back again at Nottingham which was very laborious in terms of staffing, requiring station staff to dispose of the unit and a driver to be tied up for some time shunting it.

So it might not return at all?

 

[LowLevel]

So it might not return at all?

I'm fairly sure it will return at some point. It is rolled into a bigger piece of work though about delivering the major changes without making Nottingham Station unworkable.

It's not coming back in December, that seems certain. There is a piece of work being undertaken called the Operations Delivery Improvement Plan which hopefully will come up with a more efficient way of operating it than the original plan of shunting it every hour which didn't work. See what the next review brings.

 

[I like Class 153]

I'm fairly sure it will return at some point. It is rolled into a bigger piece of work though about delivering the major changes without making Nottingham Station unworkable.

It's not coming back in December, that seems certain. There is a piece of work being undertaken called the Operations Delivery Improvement Plan which hopefully will come up with a more efficient way of operating it than the original plan of shunting it every hour which didn't work. See what the next review brings.

Oh no, I wish it was coming in December

 

[The DJ]

Although not directly relevant to this post I did notice when checking out EMR that there are no Advance fares for the 2½ hours journey between Leicester and Grimsby Town. There is only an Anytime single making the journey more expensive than a "cheapest" King's Cross to York journey

 

[LowLevel]

Although not directly relevant to this post I did notice when checking out EMR that there are no Advance fares for the 2½ hours journey between Leicester and Grimsby Town. There is only an Anytime single making the journey more expensive than a "cheapest" King's Cross to York journey

Which is odd given that there are some fairly recently introduced Leicester to Lincoln ones.

 

[WesternLancer]

Call for train services to be restored over 'promise broken'

A council has threatened to report East Midlands Railways to the rail regulator

www.nottinghampost.com

Reinstate the Matlock to Nottingham train line

Help us to defend our vital train services that our important to tourism in many town such as Matlock bath and Belper across the line.

you.38degrees.org.uk

Well good on Sawley Parish Council for trying to take some action. Puts the larger strategic transport authority councils on perspective for their seeming silence on the matter....(I'll happily stand corrected if there is evidence of them pressing the issue).

 

[ChrisC]

Well good on Sawley Parish Council for trying to take some action. Puts the larger strategic transport authority councils on perspective for their seeming silence on the matter....(I'll happily stand corrected if there is evidence of them pressing the issue).

I’ve wondered over the last few months why the Conservative MPs for Mansfield, Ashfield and Sherwood haven’t had more to say about the situation with EMR and the Robin Hood Line cuts. They are all constituencies that the Conservative will want to hang on to. It’s now obvious that the 2tph service south of Mansfield Woodhouse is not being restored in December and that’s another situation where the question might be asked of will it ever be?

 

[RH Liner]

I’ve wondered over the last few months why the Conservative MPs for Mansfield, Ashfield and Sherwood haven’t had more to say about the situation with EMR and the Robin Hood Line cuts. They are all constituencies that the Conservative will want to hang on to. It’s now obvious that the 2tph service south of Mansfield Woodhouse is not being restored in December and that’s another situation where the question might be asked of will it ever be?

Consider the like button pressed. While they are about it they may care to quiz EMR on what has virtually become standardised late running.

 

[Sleepy]

Nice 3 hour gap in service from Norwich this morning ! When half the services not running you'd think they could make the effort to run what's left ??

 

[Killingworth]

Nice 3 hour gap in service from Norwich this morning ! When half the services not running you'd think they could make the effort to run what's left ??

I share concerns about EMR services at present but feel sure those responsible for day to day operations are making their best efforts to run as many trains as possible. The underlying problem can't be fixed in the short term. Lack of appropriate rolling stock spread too thinly.

That leaves passengers in despair. This particular route, at both ends, is losing former regular users and won't attract new until it can function reliably. It has more potential than can be realised when operating as it currently does.

Other threads promote restoring services to closed lines. In this case we need to promote restoring services on lines that remain open! Should be a lot easier.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I share concerns about EMR services at present but feel sure those responsible for day to day operations are making their best efforts to run as many trains as possible. The underlying problem can't be fixed in the short term. Lack of appropriate rolling stock spread too thinly.

That leaves passengers in despair. This particular route, at both ends, is losing former regular users and won't attract new until it can function reliably. It has more potential than can be realised when operating as it currently does.

Other threads promote restoring services to closed lines. In this case we need to promote restoring services on lines that remain open! Should be a lot easier.

Unfortunately, EMR refuse to inform their passengers of the issues, instead issuing bland 'a dedicated team looking at the issues' type statements. Some members on this forum know what the multiple issues are, the rest of us can guess to whatever degree of accuracy. The ordinary punter is told sweet nothing, not even when a return to normal can be expected.

I take the view that, if the operator themselves does not have a timetable to return itself to normal service, then normal service is a long way off. Certainly not December 2021, is May 2022 too much of a dream, are we looking at December 2022 or even later?

 

[LowLevel]

Nice 3 hour gap in service from Norwich this morning ! When half the services not running you'd think they could make the effort to run what's left ??

No driver available for the round trip from Nottingham. They'll have done their best to find one.

Unfortunately, EMR refuse to inform their passengers of the issues, instead issuing bland 'a dedicated team looking at the issues' type statements. Some members on this forum know what the multiple issues are, the rest of us can guess to whatever degree of accuracy. The ordinary punter is told sweet nothing, not even when a return to normal can be expected.

I take the view that, if the operator themselves does not have a timetable to return itself to normal service, then normal service is a long way off. Certainly not December 2021, is May 2022 too much of a dream, are we looking at December 2022 or even later?

I suspect it'll be bumpy for a while. There's a lot of drivers left for retirement and thanks to the Government's scare mongering about cost cutting etc more of a certain age are looking at going because they're convinced they're going to try and steal their pensions so why bother hanging around if they can go.

Each one of these drivers with more than say 5 years experience takes years to replace in terms of route knowledge and that's without considering factors like their post qualified replacements can't have people in the cab with them to route learn constricting things further.

There is a lot of catching up to do and despite the fact we are falling over instructors with trainees at the minute they can only accrue the necessary hours and route knowledge at a certain pace.

When WMR finally get their act together with their Spanish junk the fleet situation might improve. 158863 looks to be on the road to recovery after nearly a year out of traffic which will help a bit.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

When WMR finally get their act together with their Spanish junk the fleet situation might improve.

I suppose there is a silver lining to the cloud of not ordering a fleet of shiny new trains at the franchise changeover. The trains that EMR have may be old, but they work and when they don't work there is long-term knowledge of what the regular problems are and how to fix them. Just give the 15x fleet an old fashioned proper works overhaul rather than tarting them up with new seat coverings and passing that off as a refurbishment!

 

[Sleepy]

Unfortunately, EMR refuse to inform their passengers of the issues, instead issuing bland 'a dedicated team looking at the issues' type statements. Some members on this forum know what the multiple issues are, the rest of us can guess to whatever degree of accuracy. The ordinary punter is told sweet nothing, not even when a return to normal can be expected.

I take the view that, if the operator themselves does not have a timetable to return itself to normal service, then normal service is a long way off. Certainly not December 2021, is May 2022 too much of a dream, are we looking at December 2022 or even later?

Even more annoying the 0955 ex-Norwich cancellation wasn't showing on the EMR website, even though it was known to be cancelled several hours before as confirmed by EMR social media team (can't believe they don't have journey check either). At least this would have given people the option to take 0856 service instead .....

 

[RH Liner]

Seems the Robin Hood Line is even worse than its dreadful usual this morning. Absolutely everything running even later than it normally does, and cancellations to try to catch up. And the EMR website says ‘good service’ on this line. Unbelievable, literally.

 

[m_m]

Wow, Sawley Parish Council have done something that I actually agree with!

I do feel the point has been missed though - the effect of cutting the Nottingham to Matlock service is to reduce NOT to DBY trains significantly. This has significant impacts on commuting between those 2 cities. Crucially, it really messes up journeys that connect from NOT and DBY. Next week I am driving a 100 mile round trip that I would otherwise have done via public transport, all because the connections make my last train back too early in the evening.

I know the point hasn't been missed on these forums, but it seems to be missing from the newspaper article and Parish Council comms.

 

[ashworth]

Seems the Robin Hood Line is even worse than its dreadful usual this morning. Absolutely everything running even later than it normally does, and cancellations to try to catch up. And the EMR website says ‘good service’ on this line. Unbelievable, literally.

Where do I start! Only to say that after using the line fairly regularly since it reopened I am now using the bus or driving to Hucknall and using the tram.

The Robin Hood Line, certainly south of Mansfield, has often been quoted as a success story for a reopening. For 20+ years Mansfield has enjoyed 2tph to Nottingham for a large part of the day and passenger numbers have constantly held up or even increased. Even with the limitations of the single line sections trains have usually successfully run on time as others have said in past posts for over 20 years.

Now they can’t even manage to run a reduced hourly service without almost every train being about 5 minutes late or more. This morning was worse than usual with trains over 30 minutes late and cancellations. Lots of people like me must be deserting the trains and using buses, trams or even driving into Nottingham.

Over the past 6 months EMR have come up with a variety of reasons why the service is no longer reliable. They have cut the day time frequency by half and that was supposed to sort it. They have cut stops at Newstead on Saturdays and more recently stops on many trains at Whitwell and Langwith. All these cuts are supposed to improve time keeping and make the service more reliable but it just gets worse instead. The full timetable is not returning in December and I have my doubts whether it will in May. Perhaps EMR through their current unreliability and reduced service are driving people off the trains onto buses so that they can say that lower passenger numbers do not warrant a 2tph service to be restored. They will also try to blame the single line section but that was not a big problem before the timetable changes.

What a shame that this current shambles of a service run by Abellio are undoing 20+ years of success on the RHL in just a few months. A town the size of Mansfield now only has an unreliable hourly service which hardly has any reasonable connections at Nottingham or Worksop to other destinations.

 

[DDB]

Wow, Sawley Parish Council have done something that I actually agree with!

I do feel the point has been missed though - the effect of cutting the Nottingham to Matlock service is to reduce NOT to DBY trains significantly. This has significant impacts on commuting between those 2 cities. Crucially, it really messes up journeys that connect from NOT and DBY. Next week I am driving a 100 mile round trip that I would otherwise have done via public transport, all because the connections make my last train back too early in the evening.

I know the point hasn't been missed on these forums, but it seems to be missing from the newspaper article and Parish Council comms.

And also remove almost all services from some intermediate stops

 

[STINT47]

The problem is other than Sawley council no one else seems bothered about holding EMR to account.

I wrote to my own MP for Broxtoee and he just passed my letter onto EMR who wrote back with a bland cut and paste reply.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The problem is other than Sawley council no one else seems bothered about holding EMR to account.

I wrote to my own MP for Broxtoee and he just passed my letter onto EMR who wrote back with a bland cut and paste reply.

You would have thought at least one of the MPs across all the routes affected would have either gone for an oral question at Transport questions or tabled a written question. Too many of them just aren't interested.

 

[DDB]

I've written to my MP a couple of times and my local councillors and had nothing back from either.

 

[Killingworth]

EMR's Stakeholder Conference was on Tuesday in Nottingham. Universal unhappiness was expressed regarding services across the franchise! Basically it's going to take several years to get it all right. It was acknowledged that those up to their necks in making the best of a bad job hadn't made the best of communication to their passengers.

The root of the problems is clear. The EMT franchise kept getting extended and MML electrification was delayed. Then 3 bids were made that were long on services offered but too short on how that could happen with rolling stock available. DfT aren't blameless, the indecision on Norwich - Liverpool being an example. Throw in delayed cascades, industrial relations (maybe going back to 2008) and Covid and it has been a perfect storm.

There's no escaping that it's going to be a hard road back. It was all very well hearing about Aurora but railway reality suggests they won't be operating before 2025. Meridians need some refreshment before then and should get it.

However it was on the regional services that most user comments were focused. Timetables and their operation depend on trains being available in the right places with trained crews to man them. Currently there aren't enough trains to operate desired timetables and probably won't be for some time. The new leisure focused railway requires more weekend trains, and crews. The more services that are restored the tighter it becomes. It was acknowledged that more attention is needed to some of the finer details of train planning and assurances were given that this is receiving urgent attention

New to EMR trains are coming in but need crew and servicing staff training to operate - and room to put them.. Some units need more work to make acceptable than others. That work needs to be prioritised so seats and paintwork may not happen quickly if they are otherwise mechanically in order.

Having spent the day with the people responsible for getting this right it was good to hear some very frank discussion and interchange of ideas. It would be lovely to say that in 12 months it will all be fine. We heard explanations of where we are, declarations of where we all want to be, and outlines of how we may get there. It's a very hard road ahead for all involved, and that inevitably includes passengers.

There's no magic wand or fast forward button!

 

[LowLevel]

My personal thoughts are that an interior rebuild of the 170s could easily be parked for the medium term or even permanently, if savings were needed to be made.

They were, luckily, built with very high quality interior fittings and even the ScotRail ones aren't that terrible for a 20 year old train that's never had any attention.

The Central units are bar a different shade of green seat covers the same as they were built and again they still feel transformed compared to a 153 or 156. Missing arm rests and fold down seats in the wheelchair spaces need attending to.

The only unit in the whole fleet (IC, Connect and Regional) that I would say delivers on the new train feel is 170273 which had a decent tidy up done on it by Greater Anglia.

My main priorities for class 170 would be to rebuild the seats with new cushions etc, and to upgrade the toilet system to a modern version (same spec as the 15x) as they use far less water and give significant savings in terms of needing servicing less often - they last far longer. They need a thorough mechanical overhaul including air conditioning.

The 360s require a decision as to whether to rebuild them as an IC train or accept the route is now outer suburban and adjust pricing accordingly. I wouldn't want to be sorting that.

The class 222s urgently need reforming (I believe a proposal is in place) to provide more capacity as they can't cope. They also need a clean up inside.

I think bar one or two exceptions all local guards now sign 170s. Driver training continues at Nottingham but again is largely complete elsewhere. 360s are in squadron service but availability is difficult.

The depots still need rebuilding to suit with Nottingham Eastcroft being attended to at the minute.

 

[Bald Rick]

EMR's Stakeholder Conference was on Tuesday in Nottingham. Universal unhappiness was expressed regarding services across the franchise! Basically it's going to take several years to get it all right. It was acknowledged that those up to their necks in making the best of a bad job hadn't made the best of communication to their passengers.

The root of the problems is clear. The EMT franchise kept getting extended.and .MML electrification was delayed. Then 3 bids were made that were long on services offered but too short on how that could happen with rolling stock available. DfT aren't blameless, the indecision on Norwich - Liverpool being an example. Throw in delayed cascades, industrial relations (maybe going back to 2008i) and Covid and it has been a perfect storm.

There's no escaping that it's going to be a hard road back. It was all very well hearing about Aurora but railway reality suggests they won't be operating before 2025. Meridians need some refreshment before then and should get it.

However it was on the regional services that most user comments were focused. Timetables and their operation depend on trains being available in the right places with trained crews to man them. Currently there aren't enough trains to operate desired timetables and probably won't be for some time. The new leisure focused railway requires more weekend trains, and crews. The more services that are restored the tighter it becomes. It was acknowledged that more attention is needed to some of the finer details of train planning and assurances were given that this is receiving urgent attention

New to EMR trains are coming in but need crew and servicing staff training to operate - and room to put them.. Some units need more work to make acceptable than others. That work needs to be prioritised so seats and paintwork may not happen quickly if they are otherwise mechanically in order.

Having spent the day with the people responsible for getting this right it was good to hear some very frank discussion and interchange of ideas. It would be lovely to say that in 12 months it will all be fine. We heard explanations of where we are, declarations of where we all want to be, and outlines of how we may get there. It's a very hard road ahead for all involved, and that inevitably includes passengers.

There's no magic wand or fast forward button!

thanks for the report, great to hear it even if the news isn’t what many people would hope for.

 

[Killingworth]

My personal thoughts are that an interior rebuild of the 170s could easily be parked for the medium term or even permanently, if savings were needed to be made.

They were, luckily, built with very high quality interior fittings and even the ScotRail ones aren't that terrible for a 20 year old train that's never had any attention.

The Central units are bar a different shade of green seat covers the same as they were built and again they still feel transformed compared to a 153 or 156. Missing arm rests and fold down seats in the wheelchair spaces need attending to.

The only unit in the whole fleet (IC, Connect and Regional) that I would say delivers on the new train feel is 170273 which had a decent tidy up done on it by Greater Anglia.

My main priorities for class 170 would be to rebuild the seats with new cushions etc, and to upgrade the toilet system to a modern version (same spec as the 15x) as they use far less water and give significant savings in terms of needing servicing less often - they last far longer. They need a thorough mechanical overhaul including air conditioning.

The 360s require a decision as to whether to rebuild them as an IC train or accept the route is now outer suburban and adjust pricing accordingly. I wouldn't want to be sorting that.

The class 222s urgently need reforming (I believe a proposal is in place) to provide more capacity as they can't cope. They also need a clean up inside.

I think bar one or two exceptions all local guards now sign 170s. Driver training continues at Nottingham but again is largely complete elsewhere. 360s are in squadron service but availability is difficult.

The depots still need rebuilding to suit with Nottingham Eastcroft being attended to at the minute.

Intention is to bring all interiors up to Aurora style so users will see a very similar train whatever route they're on. Better seats than any other 800 units, no ironing boards. That's going to take time - probably 5 years or more. Comes back to priorities as to how badly the interiors need it, what needs doing to make the train actually run, how many units of what type can be spared at a time, and where all the work can be done. 360s will have no first class. All their major teething problems should now be resolved, although isolated ones may remain.

We didn't fully cover pricing in the 4 break out groups I was with. That would have opened another full can of worms. I did point out that ERM must be doing well for revenue between Sheffield and Manchester on Saturdays when they can fill their 9.43 train at £23.20 single when Northern's 9.14 can get you there for £6.30 (usually with a seat from Sheffield but standing from Dore). Shrug of shoulders on that. TPE's spacious 9.11 or 10.11 come in at £12.40.

There certainly is a fleet stabling and servicing issue pending, particularly when new stock arrives in strength and has to be kept alongside old until all training is complete. There are very expensive plans being prepared for that. Just hope the funds to do it are forthcoming and in enough time. Eastcroft comes in cheap compared with them.

Some of this needs relaying better to long suffering users. However, when you're 2 or 3 hours late on a cold and wet day after your train has been cancelled or severely delayed, then you have to stand all the way, jam in 5 years time doesn't make it much better. My sympathy goes to all customer facing staff, on trains, stations, call centres and media trying to keep things moving as well as they do.

 

[Scouserail87]

Intention is to bring all interiors up to Aurora style so users will see a very similar train whatever route they're on. Better seats than any other 800 units, no ironing boards. That's going to take time - probably 5 years or more. Comes back to priorities as to how badly the interiors need it, what needs doing to make the train actually run, how many units of what type can be spared at a time, and where all the work can be done. 360s will have no first class. All their major teething problems should now be resolved, although isolated ones may remain.

We didn't fully cover pricing in the 4 break out groups I was with. That would have opened another full can of worms. I did point out that ERM must be doing well for revenue between Sheffield and Manchester on Saturdays when they can fill their 9.43 train at £23.20 single when Northern's 9.14 can get you there for £6.30 (usually with a seat from Sheffield but standing from Dore). Shrug of shoulders on that. TPE's spacious 9.11 or 10.11 come in at £12.40.

There certainly is a fleet stabling and servicing issue pending, particularly when new stock arrives in strength and has to be kept alongside old until all training is complete. There are very expensive plans being prepared for that. Just hope the funds to do it are forthcoming and in enough time. Eastcroft comes in cheap compared with them.

Some of this needs relaying better to long suffering users. However, when you're 2 or 3 hours late on a cold and wet day after your train has been cancelled or severely delayed, then you have to stand all the way, jam in 5 years time doesn't make it much better. My sympathy goes to all customer facing staff, on trains, stations, call centres and media trying to keep things moving as well as they do.

Sounds like an informative session.

Was there any mention of the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool route? Are they still planning the split? Last I heard the DFT were dragging their heels on approving the Liverpool crew depot which I assume would've resolved some of the staffing issues you mentioned.

 

[Killingworth]

Sounds like an informative session.

Was there any mention of the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool route? Are they still planning the split? Last I heard the DFT were dragging their heels on approving the Liverpool crew depot which I assume would've resolved some of the staffing issues you mentioned.

There was a lot of discussion of that route, not least given my interest in it but I wasn't the only one. However the details of what is to come weren't divulged even if they have been given an informal clue. It seems the split is still virtually certain but even that hasn't been confirmed. Planning is bad enough without that uncertainty. For the time being 158s are to be concentrated on Liverpool - Nottingham at least, if they have enough.

Who knows what happens next. Every week a new twist. Which doesn't help management, employees or passengers to plan ahead. But it will get better.

 

[DDB]

EMR's Stakeholder Conference was on Tuesday in Nottingham. Universal unhappiness was expressed regarding services across the franchise! Basically it's going to take several years to get it all right. It was acknowledged that those up to their necks in making the best of a bad job hadn't made the best of communication to their passengers.

The root of the problems is clear. The EMT franchise kept getting extended and MML electrification was delayed. Then 3 bids were made that were long on services offered but too short on how that could happen with rolling stock available. DfT aren't blameless, the indecision on Norwich - Liverpool being an example. Throw in delayed cascades, industrial relations (maybe going back to 2008) and Covid and it has been a perfect storm.

There's no escaping that it's going to be a hard road back. It was all very well hearing about Aurora but railway reality suggests they won't be operating before 2025. Meridians need some refreshment before then and should get it.

However it was on the regional services that most user comments were focused. Timetables and their operation depend on trains being available in the right places with trained crews to man them. Currently there aren't enough trains to operate desired timetables and probably won't be for some time. The new leisure focused railway requires more weekend trains, and crews. The more services that are restored the tighter it becomes. It was acknowledged that more attention is needed to some of the finer details of train planning and assurances were given that this is receiving urgent attention

New to EMR trains are coming in but need crew and servicing staff training to operate - and room to put them.. Some units need more work to make acceptable than others. That work needs to be prioritised so seats and paintwork may not happen quickly if they are otherwise mechanically in order.

Having spent the day with the people responsible for getting this right it was good to hear some very frank discussion and interchange of ideas. It would be lovely to say that in 12 months it will all be fine. We heard explanations of where we are, declarations of where we all want to be, and outlines of how we may get there. It's a very hard road ahead for all involved, and that inevitably includes passengers.

There's no magic wand or fast forward button!

Thankyou for reporting back.
It remains infuriating that things that are totally in thier power like decent comms are so poor. They recently put out a post on social media with a half apology linking to what was described as a new statement that was the same as the one in June. Why post to say you have a new statement when you don't? Also why can't us ordinary punters actually have updated information. It is just an appalling way to treat your customers.