Right to use alternative route/service/TOC with advance single

[John @ home]

I haven't applied under the delay repay scheme as I think the staff at Peterborough kept my ticket.

When my ticket for a a delayed train was retained by ticket gates, East Coast accepted a printout of my online booking obtained by logging in to "Your account".

 

[AlterEgo]

When my ticket for a a delayed train was retained by ticket gates, East Coast accepted a printout of my online booking obtained by logging in to "Your account".

They will indeed, and that is their policy. They will also accept scans of tickets and booking confirmations relating to bookings made on other retailers' sites.

 

[Paul Kelly]

the crux of the problem is that some booking site allowed a ticket to be booked on a day that engineering wasn't confirmed.

As AlterEgo said, that's not the booking site's fault - East Coast should not have opened reservations on trains that it wasn't sure were going to run; that would have prevented advances being booked on them.

 

[SouthStand]

Interesting to note that another re-timed service northbound from Kings Cross merited an explanatory note on the website. Even though they were aware of problems with my service a similar note wasn't provided.

 

[yorkie]

In September, a group of us were booked on a train that, due to timetable changes, did not run. No mention was made of the cancellation whatsoever, and the guard on the next train gave the usual warnings that reservations had to be for that train. Nevertheless, the guard must have been aware of the cancellation as he accepted the tickets without question. East Coast's policy appears to be to keep quiet when this happens.

I don't blame EC for the original problem; which is due to NR changing timetables at relatively short notice, but EC must honour the original bookings and allow passengers to travel on either earlier or later trains (as appropriate - depending on the needs of the customer) and pay for a taxi if required.

On the day in question we could have easily looked up what the best options were, but only a few people can see what trains ran now it was a few days ago. But I very much doubt that waiting at Leeds for 110 minutes was the best course of action to take, and am disappointed in this poor advice by EC staff.

I would claim Delay Repay - and mention that you may not have felt the need to, had EC staff at Leeds not instructed you to wait at Leeds for so long.

 

[34D]

I don't blame EC for the original problem; which is due to NR changing timetables at relatively short notice, but EC must honour the original bookings and allow passengers to travel on either earlier or later trains (as appropriate - depending on the needs of the customer) and pay for a taxi if required.

The only bit here I don't with is the last six words.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting to note that another re-timed service northbound from Kings Cross merited an explanatory note on the website. Even though they were aware of problems with my service a similar note wasn't provided.

To be fair, on days like this, £11.75 advances effectively get the flexibility of anytimes, which the TOC surely doesn't want to advertise!

 

[John @ home]

... pay for a taxi if required.

The only bit here I don't [agree] with is the last six words.

The train company has a contract obliging them to convey the passenger from the origin to the destination printed on the ticket, in this instance from Burnley Manchester Road to Spalding. They have conveyed the passenger to Peterborough and the passenger arrived there after the departure of the last train to Spalding.

The train company may choose whether to provide overnight accommodation in Peterborough and to convey the passenger to Spalding the next day, or to provide alternative transport to Spalding. National Rail Conditions of Carriage condition 43 applies.

 

[34D]

The train company has a contract obliging them to convey the passenger from the origin to the destination printed on the ticket, in this instance from Burnley Manchester Road to Spalding. They have conveyed the passenger to Peterborough and the passenger arrived there after the departure of the last train to Spalding.

The train company may choose whether to provide overnight accommodation in Peterborough and to convey the passenger to Spalding the next day, or to provide alternative transport to Spalding. National Rail Conditions of Carriage condition 43 applies.

John, what you have said is 100% correct. HOWEVER the intention of apex tickets is not to allow someone to pay £11 and get a £40 taxi ride out of it. Yes, in this situation the blame lies firmly at EC's doors (for various things: releasing the tickets, not replying properly to his query, not acting decisively at Leeds station, not attempting to take any action on train to hold the connection), but I still say the OP should have left Burnley earlier when he became aware of the changes (though I note that EC could only cancel/refund his contract and not vary it).

 

[OwlMan]

John, what you have said is 100% correct. HOWEVER the intention of apex tickets is not to allow someone to pay £11 and get a £40 taxi ride out of it. Yes, in this situation the blame lies firmly at EC's doors (for various things: releasing the tickets, not replying properly to his query, not acting decisively at Leeds station, not attempting to take any action on train to hold the connection), but I still say the OP should have left Burnley earlier when he became aware of the changes (though I note that EC could only cancel/refund his contract and not vary it).

Explain to me why if I have booked a advanced ticket to leave at 1810 (because I finish work at 1730) why I should have to leave early?

Peter

 

[34D]

Explain to me why if I have booked a advanced ticket to leave at 1810 (because I finish work at 1730) why I should have to leave early?

Peter

That would be because the train (1A28 or whatever it was) has been retimed to be over an hour earlier.

 

[cuccir]

That would be because the train (1A28 or whatever it was) has been retimed to be over an hour earlier.

But East Coast could have done any number of things. They could have apologised and refunded the ticket. They could have arranged with another TOC to convey the passenger to Spalding (the original question refers a route via Preston and Birmingham). I recognise that you agree with this above, but its worth reiterating

HOWEVER the intention of apex tickets is not to allow someone to pay £11 and get a £40 taxi ride out of it.

Once again, it should be pointed out that the cost of the ticket has and should not have any impact on how the T&Cs are implemented. The intention and the cost are irrelevant

but I still say the OP should have left Burnley earlier when he became aware of the changes (though I note that EC could only cancel/refund his contract and not vary it).

You've still not given a reason why, other than the fact that it wasn't EC's intention to lose money on the ticket?
--
Edit:
Just one further point. Presuming that the passenger has booked his/her ticket, is there any obligation to check closer to the date that the service is still running? Although most people would look it up a few days beforehand, I can imagine that some wouldn't. In this case the passenger would have no way of knowing that their service had been retimed - when I booked an Easyjet flight that was rescheduled they at least had the decency to email me and tell me! If your customer service does not match a budget airline, you've got to ask yourself questions.

 

[John @ home]

Once a contract has been agreed, neither party is able to change the contract without the consent of the other party. The moment when this particular contract was agreed was when the OP's payment was accepted by the train company.

From that point the OP had a right to travel from Burnley Manchester Road to Spalding subject to the conditions of the ticket. The Advance ticket conditions require the OP to travel by a particular train.

From the same point the train company had a duty to convey the OP from Burnley Manchester Road to Spalding subject to the conditions of the ticket. Neither party could now change these rights and duties without the consent of the other.

We know from post #3 that, once the disruption was known, the OP contacted the train company twice to seek to agree suitable alternative arrangements. The train company declined.

In these circumstances, the OP's only right was to travel in accordance with the original valid travel itinerary. This was done.

There were certainly additional costs incurred by the railway industry as a result of this incident. Others will decide how these costs are attributed among the various companies in the railway industry. But none of these additional costs were caused by the OP.

It remains my view that a more satisfactory arrangement would have been negotiated if an appropriate level of management in the train company had been alerted to the problem when it was raised on this forum.

We know that the train companies' trade association monitors this forum. I hope they will draw this incident to the attention of the appropriate level of train company management, with a view to preventing a recurrence.

 

[jon0844]

Why should someone who books a ticket to go and see something leave early, thus missing what they went to see? May as well stay at home!

And who pays £11 and then hopes to 'bag' a free cab ride home, as if a ride in a cab is something special. Quite possibly a driver in a car that has 'overdue service' on the display, speeding and talking on his mobile at the same time. I think I'd rather take the train given a choice!

Also, changing trains and messing around having to go and find people to speak to, being concerned that someone will stop you and say 'not a valid ticket' and try and make you buy a new ticket, as well as having to now write in and make a claim - isn't something people generally do lightly. Far more people will actually suffer all that hassle and then, the next day, wake up and think 'no more' and not even put in the claim.

I've not made a claim for anything in years, as I can't be bothered for a voucher for a few quid, so I am sure many other people think the same. I bet they never get claims from everyone on a train that is entitled to claim - even if they stand on the platform handing out forms as some TOCs do.