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Rioting students

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mumrar

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The threshold is a ridiculous olive branch, very few graduates earn less than that. It is still an interest rate though, it is still unfair and regressive. This is my main bone with the fee increase.
If so few earn below that, and therefore more than the average Joe, then they should pay for the time that they were subsidised by the average Joe of the country.
I think the police bill is a suitable price to pay for the protest of those who could be bothered to remind the Govt that they are not happy with the fact that future generations are about to have prospects of FE blown to bits.
But nobody has a given right to further education, and this is what winds me up. Beyond air, water, food and shelter, every single other desire is something we have evolved ourselves to crave. If you want it, do something about it. Why should it be given to anyone? We need a financial disincentive to the furthe education to weed out those who go for a good time, those who will do nothing, and those courses which exist to teach you nothing worthy of a degree level qualification.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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Out of thousands of people committing criminal acts, sadly very few are going to be facing up to the consequences of their actions. Quite different to the railways where you can be facing a criminal record for the sake of 10p! Not exactly fair, is it?

And out of thousands of people who commit ticket fraud, only a few of them get caught. Sounds just as fair to me.
 

Pumbaa

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In other words, this is an admission that the middle classes are effectively sticking fingers up at the working classes in their outrage that they have to pay a few more quid from their £30,000+ wage packet toward repaying the cost of their education, right?

Basically they're unhappy because they're not going to be as rich as they thought. And they don't have to pay a penny unless they're richer than working class people. If that's not an insult to the working class, then what is?

No - that was me expressing irritation at people believing that this 21k threshold wlll make things so much better and justifies the rest of the tuition fee proposals.
 

scotsman

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Out of thousands of people committing criminal acts, sadly very few are going to be facing up to the consequences of their actions. Quite different to the railways where you can be facing a criminal record for the sake of 10p! Not exactly fair, is it?

Oh please! 'thousands' - lot of scope for exaggeration in there

The majority were not breaking the law.
 

mumrar

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The majority were not breaking the law.
It doesn't mean that the number that were doesn't run in to four digits either. 10% can sound like a nice little minority, but if it were an uprising in China would represent 150million or so people. Statistics are all about presentation after all.
 

4SRKT

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In other words, this is an admission that the middle classes are effectively sticking fingers up at the working classes in their outrage that they have to pay a few more quid from their £30,000+ wage packet toward repaying the cost of their education, right?

Wrong. The logical outcome of this argument is that nobody should have to pay for anything they don't directly use themselves. That would include the NHS when you're not sick, the Police when you're not a victim of crime, the Army EVER, and as for Trident.....

Education is not a luxury, but a vital part of the infrastructure of the country, that has been perverted out of recognition by the University sector itself, to a point where (I agree) the costs are unsustainable. This self-serving monster is the principal agitator for high tuition fees, and seems incapable of the necessary introspection required to see that its own existence in its current form and consequent devaluing of qualifications is the heart of the problem. Hardly surprising, as for them to recognise this would be like turkeys voting for Christmas, but the politicians should know better.

How much longer can we go on transferring wealth from future generations to the Baby Boomers? Firstly in the shape of ridiculous house prices, then in other ways such as the gradual erosion of things like free/cheap prescriptions or dental care, Student Loans, profligate use of fossil fuels resulting in increasing scarcity and price, and now tuition fees. It's as though tomorrow's earners are seen as a cash cow to be milked, by a generation who had it all for nothing: who effectively leached off both their parents and their children.

And since when was £30,000 a 'high salary'? It certainly isn't going to be when there's all this to pay for. And the outcome? That the graduates of the future won't be able to afford all the stuff their parents had. And who will be buying stuff when the Baby Boomers have all snuffed it then? What will happen to our economy when that happens? I earn WAAY more than this but could no way be able to afford to buy the house in Bradford that I live in now had I not done so 8 years ago.

CHEAP or FREE education is vital not just to the economic and cultural life of the country, but to sustaining the economy long term, without even moving forward in any way. THIS is what really is a threat to our way of life.
 
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scotsman

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It doesn't mean that the number that were doesn't run in to four digits either. 10% can sound like a nice little minority, but if it were an uprising in China would represent 150million or so people. Statistics are all about presentation after all.

Indeed, the Chinese government wouldn't kill it's population as a result though? ;)
 

mumrar

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Hmm, firstly, who was killed today, and secondly I think you should do a little light reading on China. Tiananmen Square ring any bells? They killed 3000 people at a stroke!
 

4SRKT

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Hmm, firstly, who was killed today, and secondly I think you should do a little light reading on China. Tianemen Square ring any bells?

I think the Lib Dems may have been killed today. Another hundred or so years in the wilderness then......
 

Ferret

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Education is not a luxury.

No, but FURTHER Education in some cases is. I'd be interested to hear how many of the students on the protests today were studying the really useful subjects like medicine for instance, and how many were studying arse-wiggling and other such irrelevant courses just beacuse it means 3 years of not needing to work.

And since when was £30,000 a 'high salary'?

How many jobs do you see being advertised with a salary of 30k?! Hmmmmm!
 

LE Greys

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Wrong. The logical outcome of this argument is that nobody should have to pay for anything they don't directly use themselves. That would include the NHS when you're not sick, the Police when you're not a victim of crime, the Army EVER, and as for Trident.....

Education is not a luxury, but a vital part of the infrastructure of the country, that has been perverted out of recognition by the University sector itself, to a point where (I agree) the costs are unsustainable. This self-serving monster is the principal agitator for high tuition fees, and seems incapable of the necessary introspection required to see that its own existence in its current form and consequent devaluing of qualifications is the heart of the problem. Hardly surprising, as for them to recognise this would be like turkeys voting for Christmas, but the politicians should know better.

How much longer can we go on transferring wealth from future generations to the Baby Boomers? Firstly in the shape of ridiculous house prices, then in other ways such as the gradual erosion of things like free/cheap prescriptions or dental care, Student Loans, profligate use of fossil fuels resulting in increasing scarcity and price, and now tuition fees. It's as though tomorrow's earners are seen as a cash cow to be milked, by a generation who had it all for nothing: who effectively leached off both their parents and their children.

And since when was £30,000 a 'high salary'? It certainly isn't going to be when there's all this to pay for. And the outcome? That the graduates of the future won't be able to afford all the stuff their parents had. And who will be buying stuff when the Baby Boomers have all snuffed it then? What will happen to our economy when that happens? I earn WAAY more than this but could no way be able to afford to buy the house in Bradford that I live in now had I not done so 8 years ago.

CHEAP or FREE education is vital not just to the economic and cultural life of the country, but to sustaining the economy long term, without even moving forward in any way. THIS is what really is a threat to our way of life.

Hear! Hear!

There are many things that it is just not possible to do without a university education. How many well-paid virologists are there? Yet these are the people who will one day develop a cure for HIV. If some industries have the ability to spend more money on advertising than governments spend on funding research, then surely society has its priorities wrong.
 

scotsman

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Hmm, firstly, who was killed today, and secondly I think you should do a little light reading on China. Tiananmen Square ring any bells? They killed 3000 people at a stroke!

They did, but an uprising in the numbers given wouldn't result in the death. of the entire population.

See, it's got to be proportional.
 

4SRKT

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No, but FURTHER Education in some cases is. I'd be interested to hear how many of the students on the protests today were studying the really useful subjects like medicine for instance, and how many were studying arse-wiggling and other such irrelevant courses just beacuse it means 3 years of not needing to work. !


I agree 100%. Indeed this has been the whole thrust of my argument throughout the thread: that society needs to put aside a pot of money to educate people to University level, but that the pot is being divided among far too many people, to the benefit of nobody, except the people employed in the polyversities.



How many jobs do you see being advertised with a salary of 30k?! Hmmmmm!

Not the point. If someone knows that by earning £30,000 they will have to pay back £27,000 for a three year course, then what on Earth is the point of doing the course in the first place? What is £30,000 in take home pay? £22,000 or so? Or £1,000 over the risible £21,000 threshold. Therefore it will take MANY YEARS to pay back the tuition fess if £30,000 is indeed the best a graduate can aspire to. Coupled with the fact that they will have a similar level of loan debt and it makes University totally unviable. I'm actually quite frightened about what this means for the future of the country if the education 'required' to be a junior manager or whatever is actually unaffordable in real terms. Of course it's only 'required' because there are far too many people with degrees, which comes back to my central point.

Maybe the effect will be to kill off many of the pretend universities that have caused this mess. I hope so, but I can't say I think any party (including Labour for all its posturing) will ever remove fees, even if student levels went back to 1970s levels.
 

yorkie

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CHEAP or FREE education is vital not just to the economic and cultural life of the country, but to sustaining the economy long term, without even moving forward in any way. THIS is what really is a threat to our way of life.
'Someone' has to bear the costs; nothing is 'free'. I don't see why the middle classes should not repay a significant proportion of the cost of a good education when (and not until) they are earning a decent wage? Why should the working classes pay for that through taxes? My uni education would be cheaper for me, almost "FREE" (to me) under the new system, but not under the old system, where the threshold is significantly lower (and doesn't go up by inflation).
 

ralphchadkirk

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'Someone' has to bear the costs; nothing is 'free'. I don't see why the middle classes should not repay a significant proportion of the cost of a good education when (and not until) they are earning a decent wage? Why should the working classes pay for that through taxes? My uni education would be cheaper for me, almost "FREE" (to me) under the new system, but not under the old system, where the threshold is significantly lower (and doesn't go up by inflation).
Why should any healthy person pay tax for the NHS when they don't need it?
 

yorkie

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Not the point. If someone knows that by earning £30,000 they will have to pay back £27,000 for a three year course, then what on Earth is the point of doing the course in the first place?
Look at it a more logical way.

Firstly, if you will earn £30k without a degree, then save yourself and us the expense and just get a £30k job without the degree!

If you need the degree, then "what is the point" answers its own question!

http://www.118student.co.uk/finance/loan-calculator.html

Threshold limit is now 21,000. Does anyone know if the threshold rate is the same (9%)? Assuming it is, someone on a 30,000 salary pays £67.50 per month toward their repayments, that's £810 per year. This leaves them with £29,190 (before tax). I'm sure the hearts of all working class people on far less than that bleed for people living in such 'poverty' who are outraged at having such a 'low' (by their standards; not ours) wage once the £810 is taken off.

So, if someone feels they will earn £30,000 with a degree but less than £29,190 without a degree, then they are better off WITH the degree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why should any healthy person pay tax for the NHS when they don't need it?
Who 'needs' a degree? No-one is forcing you to get it, but if you get it, then you have to repay the cost of it, when you start earning a decent enough wage to be able to afford to. Going without health treatment is not quite the same as going without a degree. See my calculations above. If I've made an error, feel free to point it out.

I chose to get one, but I'm not going to throw a major wobbler and have a riot just because I think others should pay the full cost of it. On the contrary, I should pay a decent proportion of that cost back.
 

4SRKT

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'Someone' has to bear the costs; nothing is 'free'. I don't see why the middle classes should not repay a significant proportion of the cost of a good education when (and not until) they are earning a decent wage? Why should the working classes pay for that through taxes? My uni education would be cheaper for me, almost "FREE" (to me) under the new system, but not under the old system, where the threshold is significantly lower (and doesn't go up by inflation).

I have not said I think it is free. I think I have given a good enough description of what I think the problem is, and how it should be addressed.

I'm not really interested in 'working class'/'middle class' rhetoric. Taxes are paid for the upkeep of the nation, by anyone in work. Education is a cornerstone of this and should be funded out of general taxation. Surely the next thing will be that people who go to schools that aren't failing should pay towards their secondary education because their prospects are better. Why should the children of the 'working classes' who attend sink schools have to pay for the education of the pampered 'middle classes' at the school down the road?

Look at it a more logical way.

Firstly, if you will earn £30k without a degree, then save yourself and us the expense and just get a £30k job without the degree!

If you need the degree, then "what is the point" answers its own question!

My point is, and has been throughout, that the over-provision of graduates has made it so that to all intents and purposes you do need a degree to get such a job, even though in reality it's not necessary. There's nothing illogical in what I wrote BTW. It was a pretty straightforward breakdown of cost to support the idea that £30K will not be a 'high salary' for someone who's been through university at £9K a year.
 
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LE Greys

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'Someone' has to bear the costs; nothing is 'free'. I don't see why the middle classes should not repay a significant proportion of the cost of a good education when (and not until) they are earning a decent wage? Why should the working classes pay for that through taxes? My uni education would be cheaper for me, almost "FREE" (to me) under the new system, but not under the old system, where the threshold is significantly lower (and doesn't go up by inflation).

So close all the tax loopholes and deductions that the middle classes use to get out of paying higher-rate income tax. Why are enterprise investment schemes or venture capital trusts tax-exempt? Why not have a system where you add up all your income over the year, subtract 40,000, divide the rest by 2.5, then add 10,000? That would be how much tax you would pay, which would be more than the current ammount, but effectively even more, since it would be a lot harder to evade. No tax credits either, an increase in child benefit or state pension would cover the cost. On less than £40,000, just divide by 5. On less than £12,000, it would be divide by 10. People could do their tax return on the back of an envelope. This saves money by making the system much easier to administer.

Currently, you're treating students as service users. On this, you would simply get more money out of the rich by taxing them more.
 

Ferret

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I agree 100%. Indeed this has been the whole thrust of my argument throughout the thread: that society needs to put aside a pot of money to educate people to University level, but that the pot is being divided among far too many people, to the benefit of nobody, except the people employed in the polyversities.

This is where all the political parties have failed as far as I'm concerned. There are many degree courses which really do stand people in good stead and leave those who pass them in an excellent position to go forward in their chosen profession. Then, there are the degrees which really have no value - but which Politicians are happy with because they keep unemployment figures down and allow them to spin a great story about how many people are going to university and wonderful it all is. In the process, several have found out they've wasted 3 years of their life for a worthless piece of paper.

Not the point. If someone knows that by earning £30,000 they will have to pay back £27,000 for a three year course, then what on Earth is the point of doing the course in the first place? What is £30,000 in take home pay? £22,000 or so? Or £1,000 over the risible £21,000 threshold. Therefore it will take TWENTY SEVEN YEARS to pay back the tuition fess if £30,000 is indeed the best a graduate can aspire to. Coupled with the fact that they will have a similar level of loan debt and it makes University totally unviable. I'm actually quite frightened about what this means for the future of the country if the education required to be a junior manager or whatever is actually unaffordable in real terms.

I have to ask why a junior manager needs to be educated to degree level. I've done 10 years in the real world of work now, and I've seen quite a few 'junior managers' with degrees who couldn't run a ****-up in a brewery! The reason? They have no experience and knowledge of the roles that the people they are managing perform, and it shows. What I really want to see is a myth nailed - a University education is not the be all and the end all despite what gets forced down people's throats.
 

4SRKT

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I have to ask why a junior manager needs to be educated to degree level. I've done 10 years in the real world of work now, and I've seen quite a few 'junior managers' with degrees who couldn't run a ****-up in a brewery! The reason? They have no experience and knowledge of the roles that the people they are managing perform, and it shows. What I really want to see is a myth nailed - a University education is not the be all and the end all despite what gets forced down people's throats.

Indeed. We appear to agree. At no point has any employer ever asked to see my degree. It was at the time (16 years ago) a useful shoe in to a junior operations job in the parcel industry, but no way was it needed. A great example of how somebody with a degree got a job that didn't need it simply because he had it. Having displayed some flair in the parcels game I've now managed to get into quite a senior operations role, that also incorporates being head of planning and development. The point is that my degree is essentially nothing to do with this except for getting the shoe in in the first place. In a world where degrees didn't get given out like sweets and I hadn't gone to university, I would still have got a junior ops job, and likely still followed a similar career progression.
 
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yorkie

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I'm not really interested in 'working class'/'middle class' rhetoric.
I'm not either BUT some people earning (or destined to earn) shedloads of cash more than people like me are lying and spreading propaganda that some young people are being fooled with (and understandably so, as they are impressionable) and saying that it is about poor people / people who won't go on to earn much. This isn't true, and this has to be highlighted.

As for secondary education, it should really be compulsory until 18 (14 to 18 could be a vocational course where they are based in a workplace, not at school, for people who are not academically minded).
My point is, and has been throughout, that the over-provision of graduates has made it so that to all intents and purposes you do need a degree to get such a job, even though in reality it's not necessary. There's nothing illogical in what I wrote BTW. It was a pretty straightforward breakdown of cost to support the idea that £30K will not be a 'high salary' for someone who's been through university at £9K a year.
Yes there is a huge over-provision of graduates, and we were spending far more than we can afford in this area. We need to shift the focus toward vocational courses, not university.

And it's not a case of your argument being logical or illogical but it is the wrong way to analyse it when deciding whether or not the degree is value for money. You have to look at earnings, and how much of the earnings will be spent on repayments. The reality is that the repayments are not huge. And if you lose your job or suffer a wage cut, no-one is going to come knocking to make you pay the debt. Yet some students are pretending it's like a credit card debt or something, which is absurd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So close all the tax loopholes and deductions that the middle classes use to get out of paying higher-rate income tax.....
Yes, I agree.
 

scotsman

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May I draw your attention to this article which was published today:
Why tuition fees are threatening life as we know it

Today sees the vote on the bill which may see tuition fees in England rise to £9000 in some of the most prestigious universities. Despite this being a decision that will only affect England, this has a huge bearing on the whole of UK as we know it.

The reasoning behind this decision is that taxpayers should not have to subsidize other people's 'lifestyle choices’ - a principle that goes against everything we value in this country.

If we were to apply this rather selfish attitude to say, the NHS - we get a whole load of problems. A 21 year old may argue that he shouldn't need to pay for the NHS, he's never ill. Someone else could argue that the Government shouldn't pay into retirement homes for ex-soldiers, since the Army has never done anything for him. The whole argument makes no sense whatsoever. Which is why the collective responsibility concept of the welfare state and the NHS is so brilliant and so valuable – you get free healthcare from birth, you get education for free, you pay taxes when you get a job, then you retire and the Government pays you a pension.

If the coalition's vote is successful (and sadly, it looks inevitable), are any of our public services really safe?

The NHS could be a target, since the biggest consumers are the young (too young to pay tax) and the old (generally have too low an income to pay tax) the rest of the population shouldn't have to foot the bill. What will this lead to? A dangerous situation where everyone needs private health insurance if they want any sort of decent healthcare. So the poorest get ill and can't get better or support their families, and the oldest get ill and can't pay to get better. Where is the justice in that?

Public transport? Why should you rely on the Government to help you get around because you haven’t been forward thinking enough to learn to drive. One thing’s for certain - if you want to get to Orkney, or you’re under 17, you’re in trouble.

It’s also worth pointing out why this bill will benefit the richest the most. Given that your average student doesn’t have £9000 to spare, he or she will have to take out a loan to pay back these fees with interest added on top. Meanwhile the richest students, many of whom will have benefitted from a private education already – a fast track to university – and a greater disposable income, will be able to avoid higher interest charges by paying back tuition fees quicker.

I feel that entry to higher education should be based on ability to learn, rather than ability to pay. So, why does the Government feel the best way to cut the budget deficit is to exploit young people in pursuit of an education? When they could have close loopholes to collect millions in lost revenue from tax dodging bankers?

In fact, since when were bankers more important the young people’s educations?
“If you think education is expensive, try ignorance” – Derek Bok, American Educator and Lawyer
 

Ferret

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Indeed. We appear to agree.

I think there are many areas in which we do agree!

I don't think today's vote in the Commons is the end of the matter either. I can see serious reforms to the whole University system coming in the not too distant future. These measures that went through the Commons today may well precipitate the end of some of the more daft courses as it is, and by the time that has happened, we may find we have a different Government who could take an alternative approach to how Universities are funded, and whether there will be financial incentives to go and study such courses as Medicine which bring a real benefit to us all in the long run. Time will tell on that.....
 

yorkie

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May I draw your attention to this article which was published today:
The article should have been dated 1998, as that's when tuiton fees came into force. This isn't newsworthy.

Also the interest is very low, see

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/student-loans-repay

"Key Fact: Student loans have no 'real' cost"

Of course, the Students Union does NOT want their members to read that helpful advice as they want to scaremonger and use propaganda to recruit people for their protests, which they know full well will result in violence. In other words, inciting impressionable young people to get themselves into dangerous situations. It's not clever, is it?

It's a bit like people saying that railways are more expensive than planes and quoting the full open versus advance plane costs. It's not helpful; it's scaremongering. Yes, they may have a bit of a point, but by massively exaggerating it, and using propaganda, they lose all credibility.
 

4SRKT

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There is something a bit exhilerating about a riot though. I went to university in Northern Ireland from 1990 to 1993, and it's quite an adrenaline rush when it all kicks off ;)
 

LE Greys

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This is where all the political parties have failed as far as I'm concerned. There are many degree courses which really do stand people in good stead and leave those who pass them in an excellent position to go forward in their chosen profession. Then, there are the degrees which really have no value - but which Politicians are happy with because they keep unemployment figures down and allow them to spin a great story about how many people are going to university and wonderful it all is. In the process, several have found out they've wasted 3 years of their life for a worthless piece of paper.

I agree with that. Mine was in zoology from Aberdeen, one of the top universities in the field. When I left, there were hundreds of fellow graduates chasing a tiny number of positions, especially research assistants, which was what I was planning to do. Waste of time and money, and I really ought to have done something else. Now, there are no jobs and nothing else to do, so I am trying to get back in to do a masters' purely to stay busy.
 

scotsman

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The article should have been dated 1998, as that's when tuiton fees came into force. This isn't newsworthy.

Well, I felt it was especially relevant. How many of our public services are now at risk because of this?
 
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